Quick stuff (VT game)...

[gary-7]

...and bleah.

- I didn't even get to start watching this game live until the Under-16 in the second half, and from that point all I saw was ugliness. I'm watching the replay as I'm typing this but we'll see how long that lasts.

- What I saw in the second half was a team not moving, not catching passes and getting out-worked and out-hustled on the boards. Help-D started to wane and we got out-rebounded despite Roy trying more big lineups and most frustratingly, VaTech started beating us at our own game --- transition. Usually we love teams that try to run with us, but after a while we were just being beaten down the court.

- I confess I've been worried about this one. I don't know if it was a factor, but this deal of having to play a 7:00 Monday road game for TV packages is cheesy. If they're gonna do that the road team should have the previous Saturday off. Again, don't know if was a factor but as I sit here watching the replay it's looking like we're hitting a wall toward the end of the first half. Bilas said it well --- as the first half wore on we started to react instead of dictate on D. And our shooting legs got less and less steady as theirs got more and more confident.

The only thing else I can say is you're not gonna beat a fired-up, desperate VaTech team (and Michael Stephens and Doug Shows) in Blacksburg with that kind of performance. That's about it. I'll be interested to read more specific takes from those of y'all who watched the whole deal live. I'm gonna finish watching the replay and chill til Saturday. Hopefully the guys will get some of their mojo back by then...

 

[imajericho]

...and bleah.

- I didn't even get to start watching this game live until the Under-16 in the second half, and from that point all I saw was ugliness. I'm watching the replay as I'm typing this but we'll see how long that lasts.

- What I saw in the second half was a team not moving, not catching passes and getting out-worked and out-hustled on the boards. Help-D started to wane and we got out-rebounded despite Roy trying more big lineups and most frustratingly, VaTech started beating us at our own game --- transition. Usually we love teams that try to run with us, but after a while we were just being beaten down the court.

- I confess I've been worried about this one. I don't know if it was a factor, but this deal of having to play a 7:00 Monday road game for TV packages is cheesy. If they're gonna do that the road team should have the previous Saturday off. Again, don't know if was a factor but as I sit here watching the replay it's looking like we're hitting a wall toward the end of the first half. Bilas said it well --- as the first half wore on we started to react instead of dictate on D. And our shooting legs got less and less steady as theirs got more and more confident.

The only thing else I can say is you're not gonna beat a fired-up, desperate VaTech team (and Michael Stephens and Doug Shows) in Blacksburg with that kind of performance. That's about it. I'll be interested to read more specific takes from those of y'all who watched the whole deal live. I'm gonna finish watching the replay and chill til Saturday. Hopefully the guys will get some of their mojo back by then...

If we keep making jumpers , we win. If we go cold, we lose.

We are a jump shooting team, and this is going to be true all year long.

 

[BillyL]

Airball Berry (twice) had a pitiful game, so did Cam & Kenny . .

The UNC dawgs looked like little lost puppies tonite.

 

[bax4444]

THe fact is that we have 3 guys In our starting lineup who wouldn't possibly start for any of Roys great unc teams. It's a very very down year in college basketball which has inflated this teams record somewhat. I always felt it was a rebuilding year it's just that the brand of college hoop is so god awful this year that they could beat most teams on any given night. Of course as we have seen they could lose to anyone too.

Back to back title games makes this much more enjoyable for me. Although I can't wait until we get more unc caliber talent in here, it's just much more fun to watch. Roys system with the right horses is a thing of beauty. But when you have average talent it can sputter.

 

[j-doolsheels]

THe fact is that we have 3 guys In our starting lineup who wouldn't possibly start for any of Roys great unc teams. It's a very very down year in college basketball which has inflated this teams record somewhat. I always felt it was a rebuilding year it's just that the brand of college hoop is so god awful this year that they could beat most teams on any given night. Of course as we have seen they could lose to anyone too.

Back to back title games makes this much more enjoyable for me. Although I can't wait until we get more unc caliber talent in here, it's just much more fun to watch. Roys system with the right horses is a thing of beauty. But when you have average talent it can sputter.

You make a lot of great points...I also think the scheduling didn't do us any favors.

 

[JCClayton]

I honestly look at some of these games ok all of them and wonder where points are going to come from. I just don’t see playmakers outside of Joel and I feel like he is taking everything on his shoulders because he doesn’t trust some of his teammates. And if he doesn’t then that is really bad but they have to make plays. A lot of standing around and watching tonight. Like Gary said just no movement. The schedule thing stunk and there were missed calls but if your not the aggressor your not going to get calls and shoot ft’s It’s been awhile since I saw a UNC go to the stripe this few times. It’s not acceptable to have another team,any team, out effort you like I watched tonight

 

[imajericho]

When is the last time we have connected on an alley oop dunk? Seriously asking.

 

[gauchoheel]

I honestly look at some of these games ok all of them and wonder where points are going to come from. I just don’t see playmakers outside of Joel and I feel like he is taking everything on his shoulders because he doesn’t trust some of his teammates. And if he doesn’t then that is really bad but they have to make plays. A lot of standing around and watching tonight. Like Gary said just no movement. The schedule thing stunk and there were missed calls but if your not the aggressor your not going to get calls and shoot ft’s It’s been awhile since I saw a UNC go to the stripe this few times. It’s not acceptable to have another team,any team, out effort you like I watched tonight

Luke has become a better scorer than Joel to me. He can create his own shot and do so with great efficiency. I've been hoping he takes more threes all year, but he is truly fun to watch on offense. I am so happy he is on our team.

 

[FranktheHeel]

I think this game just goes to show you that we are not where we need to be just yet and need to keep working and improving, we faced a hungry and aggressive team and didn’t respond well to it, there's still a long way to go and hopefully we can use this as a little motivation to get us to play like the team we are capable of being.

The most frustrating part to me is the effort, after watching this team in the beginning of the year I thought that was something that we really excelled at and would be a pivotal area and driving force in allowing us to win games. This team needs to have that identity of being scrappy and diving on the floor for loose balls, winning the 50-50 balls at the rim, etc. I’m a big believer in everything starting from strong defensive intensity and focus (which I think really needs to be a big area of focus after this one) and tonight we just didn’t give it our all on D, and that carried over to the battle on the boards. VT came in last in rebounding in the ACC and we were first, yet they just out rebounded us, that just can’t happen.

If we are going to go small we need to be able to move a lot more effectively. We talked about it in the GT thread today, it once again seemed like we were just moving to move and not doing it with a purpose. I thought Bilas made another good point I saying that we settled for a lot of jump shots and weren’t making a strong enough effort to get to the rim and I think this was exactly why we only shot 5 free throws (all of which we made), we really need to make a better effort in getting into the lane and force teams to have to come down and double more allowing us to be able to find the open man instead of a contested jumper.

I thought Luke and Joel played well in the beginning of the 1st half as they combined to score our first 17 points and we had chance to build a good lead early, but they didn't get that support from Theo, Cam and Kenny to do that. I think tonight showed how valuable that Theo’s play is for us, he was a big factor in our last four wins and tonight he didn’t get into the lane as effectively and only took 2 shots for us. Something that impressed me in the ND game was him being aggressive and getting into the lane when we needed points from him, I really would’ve liked to see him take charge and do that for us tonight, hopefully he'll realize this after this one and be assertive each game moving forward.

I’m also hoping that Kenny’s shooting struggles are just a little slump and a confidence thing and with the rest this week he will be able to work on some things and be able to get back that touch he had in the beginning of the year because we need him to knock them down, especially those open looks which he did have tonight. Him picking up that 4th foul that early in the 2nd half and at that moment where we just cut it to two did hurt as he was out for our 12 minutes after that. He is so valuable to us defensively and we need him out there to be at our best on that end of the floor, I think Roy will definitely talk with him about that.

Felton provided a very good spark from that 16 to 12 minute mark, I wish Roy would’ve left him in with Joel after that under 12 timeout.

I was happy to see B-Rob come off the bench early, I thought it showed that Roy’s trust in him has increased as he continues to give good effort on both ends of the floor. Also, it just goes to show how he needs to be ready to play in situations like the one tonight where Kenny got into foul trouble early.

I feel that we can old build up from here and you know what having State coming in Saturday may be the best possible team that we can play as we will be pumped to beat State as we always are and have a little more of a chip on our shoulders to come back from this and make a statement. I honestly do believe that this team won’t be defined by a game like this and will make improvements, this may just be the wakeup call that we need after not playing our best in the last few games.
We need to put this behind us and now focus on beating State,
The Team I Hate is nc state!!!

 

[mjrocks23]

The result against Virginia Tech was because of 2 factors. One was effort. The other was talent. The players need to have a private meeting to air out their problems, and find out what is holding them back mentally. As for the talent issue, that arose because of the NCAA investigation handicapping recruiting for years. It will take at least the 2018 and 2019 recruiting classes to get the Heels back to the talent level they had pre-academic scandal, and the problem will not be fully resolved until the last of the players from the scandal years have moved on.

 

[imajericho]

VT only really outrebounded us because we made less shots than them which gave them more defensive rebounds then us. It was only -1.

 

[Archer2]

Our effort wasn't what it needed to be and like Frank said, the fact that it's happened several times this year is puzzling to me because I thought it would be a strength of this team. It must improve.

We took almost half of our shots from long distance, a recipe for disaster if you aren't shooting well, and we weren't. We must attack the basket more and settle less for threes. We're literally living and dying by them.

Our three point defense is atrocious and that falls on the coach. We simply help down far too often and far too deep. We must make adjustments or we are going to continue to lose to teams who can shoot it well.

 

[notashelbyfan]

We are what we are a jump shooting team we make shots we are hard to beat we don't we will lose a lot!

The effort of lack of is what bothers me!

We are really missing 7th, Felton is a non threat right now, no quality bigs, zero bench help, and no damn heart!

Makes me sick!

 

[al would]

In 22 minutes of combined PT Brooks (14) and Manley (8) scored a total of 2 points, Brooks got both of them, and each had 1 defensive board. And as a team UNC shot a total of 5 free throws. Not sure why Roy played Brooks as much as he did but he was not very effective on either end from what I saw. We will not win many more games this year playing like we did tonight.

 

[sgrooms]

Our effort wasn't what it needed to be and like Frank said, the fact that it's happened several times this year is puzzling to me because I thought it would be a strength of this team. It must improve.

We took almost half of our shots from long distance, a recipe for disaster if you aren't shooting well, and we weren't. We must attack the basket more and settle less for threes. We're literally living and dying by them.

Our three point defense is atrocious and that falls on the coach. We simply help down far too often and far too deep. We must make adjustments or we are going to continue to lose to teams who can shoot it well.

Literally?

 

[acarter0277]

Our effort wasn't what it needed to be and like Frank said, the fact that it's happened several times this year is puzzling to me because I thought it would be a strength of this team. It must improve.

We took almost half of our shots from long distance, a recipe for disaster if you aren't shooting well, and we weren't. We must attack the basket more and settle less for threes. We're literally living and dying by them.

Our three point defense is atrocious and that falls on the coach. We simply help down far too often and far too deep. We must make adjustments or we are going to continue to lose to teams who can shoot it well.

3 great points, especially the last one. That's been my gripe for years about Coach Williams's teams. They tend to over help and give up way to many uncontested 3s. The game has changed and there are so many more people willing and able to shoot the 3. You can't help so far off of them.

 

[acarter0277]

Here's my take...this team is just not very good. But I think if we polled everyone on this board, we all would say we would take a year like this if it meant back to back title game trips with 1 Championship.

I think the biggest problem with this team is that we have a small ball lineup but not a small ball scheme. Coach still wants to dump it in the post, so that's going to clog driving lanes. With the lane overcrowded, the defenders can press up further on our guards and do a better job taking the 3 away, especially when Manley and Brooks are in. Right now, they're not effective enough to warrant any help from perimeter defenders. They can be guarded 1 on 1 in the interior. On top of that, Theo's defender is basically playing a 1 man zone, because they have no respect for his jumper...so that's another defender that can stand in and clog the paint. So we have no driving lanes to make defenders play us more honest, and that's causing us to shoot long, contested 3s.

VT was able to be so effective because they had the whole court open. They had plenty of driving lanes to penetrate and get to the rim. This collapsed our D, so when we actually did stop the the drive, they were able to kick to wide open shooters.

I think if we're going to play small, we need to have an open post. That gives JB, Theo, etc driving lines to the basket.

 

[dadika13]

We took almost half of our shots from long distance, a recipe for disaster if you aren't shooting well, and we weren't. We must attack the basket more and settle less for threes. We're literally living and dying by them.

This was also my main observation watching the game. The last thing I want to become is 2016 Duke where we are just jacking up 3's all game.

Our shot selection in general is very poor.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

I'm not so much concerned about not making shots that happens. What I am concerned about is the continued lack of Defenseperiod on one defensive possession even the commentators notice not one player had their hands up to disrupt passing Lanes at all Virginia Tech dribbled we were in position then they pass to the corner dribble we were in position past inside passed out if anybody would have had their hands up all three of those passes would have been deflected. Maybe even stolen. But instead we were just content to be in position and as a result we over helped Virginia got an open 3 which day of course hit because as we know everybody hits career Marc when they're shooting against us

 

[bax4444]

They showed at least 4 replays last night of one va tech player on the lane driving w the ball surrounded by 4 unc defenders, and 4 va tech guys just standing on the perimeter wide open waiting for the pass.

I love Roy but when his teams help like this on drivers it seriously looks like middle school basketball. I wish i could find a screenshot cuz it's truly kind of hilarious.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Just plain ugly! We can and will do better.

 

[Carolina Way]

To me the problem has rarely been about UNC defending or not defending the 3... It's been what feels like a decade of UNC being unable to defend dribble penetration. I know the jerk reaction is "we should just stop helping off of shooters"... but if we do that, the other team is going to just have a sea of layups. Especially in a year where we have basically no rim protection.

I'm starting to wonder if Roy's gonna have to get us out of the man-to-man more. I was really shocked and almost dumbfounded that we didn't go zone a single possession last night. I admittedly cut the game off at around the 5 minute mark.

We constantly, myself included, complain about getting beat by 3 point shots. But the reality of the situation is that these shots are almost always set up by guards easily penetrating into the lane. Stop the dribble drive and we're going to limit the 3s. I'm just not sure we can do that right now in the man-to-man.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Not enough talent to compensate for lack of effort. Unc looked tired.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

They showed at least 4 replays last night of one va tech player on the lane driving w the ball surrounded by 4 unc defenders, and 4 va tech guys just standing on the perimeter wide open waiting for the pass.

I love Roy but when his teams help like this on drivers it seriously looks like middle school basketball. I wish i could find a screenshot cuz it's truly kind of hilarious.

It really does. At times it resembles watching my sons YMCA team of 4 and 5 year olds chase the ball non stop. It’s ridiculous.

 

[DSouthr]

IMO, this team while a good team that will get much better, we do have a couple of concerns that I am not sure can be handled to the extent we need for a deep post season run.

First, as a shooting team we are not bad but we just are not a great shooting team. I do think we have some very good shooters but we don't always take what I think are good shots nor do we set up a lot of really good looks for our shooters. The result is not just a missed shot but a long rebound that many times allows the defense to exchange defense to offense and get out for easier looks on run outs. Good shooters will hit a solid % of clean looks but the hard looks will not always drop at nearly the same %. I have not been sold that the bomb squad nick name really fits us because I would see that apply to a more consistently deadly set of shooters. The 2 guys we have that we can count on being very good shooters are Joel and Luke and their looks just get harder if Kenny and Cam are not hitting and the later 2 IMO are more streaky shooters than consistent.. This hurts our floor spacing, would like to see guys like kenny and Joel maybe drive more and not just get caught in being jump shooters that defenders can fly out on.

This can get better with better movement off the ball and simply taking better shots (shot selection). I do think Cam is a more pure shooter than we may have seem especially last night.

The second, we already know, have known since the off season, we just do not have intimidating front court guys that are going to be defensive stoppers or be able to get you those easy inside looks that Roy depends on. With out those intimidating big men inside it is going to force us to help more and help to deep many times, opening up the kick outs that have really hurt us in our losses. That may take an off season of S/C work to relieve IMO but marginally this can improve with more experience this season, I fear just not enough.

Honestly, being honest, this is about what I expected us to be coming in, a bit of an up and down team, up when we hit jumpers from our streaky shooters and play with a high lefvel of intensity but not when those things are not there.

 

[gary-7]

3 great points, especially the last one. That's been my gripe for years about Coach Williams's teams. They tend to over help and give up way to many uncontested 3s. The game has changed and there are so many more people willing and able to shoot the 3. You can't help so far off of them.

I hear ya, Coach. There was a sequence in the second half where their Guard drove from the opposite top of the arc, and BRob's man was off in the far corner, and yet he collapses to the paint (even though help was already there), leaving the guy by himself, of course for a 3.

You and I both know they're drilled to be on paint duty 2-passes away, but as you said the game has changed --- especially with teams like VaTech --- and you just can't afford to lose close-out reach on 3-point threats. I know Roy wants his guys to do both, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[gauchoheel]

Our effort wasn't what it needed to be and like Frank said, the fact that it's happened several times this year is puzzling to me because I thought it would be a strength of this team. It must improve.

We took almost half of our shots from long distance, a recipe for disaster if you aren't shooting well, and we weren't. We must attack the basket more and settle less for threes. We're literally living and dying by them.

Our three point defense is atrocious and that falls on the coach. We simply help down far too often and far too deep. We must make adjustments or we are going to continue to lose to teams who can shoot it well.

Especially contested threes. A 23 foot jumper with a hand in your face is just a poor shot. Drive it and then kick so we get someone wide open at least.

 

[midline]

Going to be an up, and down year. Everyone should have seen this coming, but after two straight appearances in the title game, it is hard to watch the team struggle. But this team is much different than we are used to seeing from a Roy Williams coached team.
First issue is defense. Roy has always done this, but it is worse this year. Trying to protect the lane from someone driving at all cost. As we saw last night, this leaves wide open threes. And in my opinion the problem starts with a lack of lateral quickness with our guards. VT just drove into the lane at will last night because our guards couldn’t stay in front of them.
On offense, it basically comes down to this. If UNC is hitting from outside, things are fine. If not, it’s going to be a long night. The inside game is mostly nonexistent from what we are used to. Brooks is a defensive guy it seems. Manly has promise, but is light years away from being effective. And Maye is a spot up shooter. Much more comfortable taking a jumper than scoring inside.

Just the hand that was dealt this year. If Bradley hadn’t jumped ship, things would be different. But he did. Just have to ride the ups and downs until more talent arrives

 

[gteeitup]

this team already their meeting...when you have a second meeting, there’s a bigger problem.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

This team has never had a players only meeting unless a lot of us have missed something that have had long film sessions WITH coach but never a players only meeting

 

[gteeitup]

This team has never had a players only meeting unless a lot of us have missed something that have had long film sessions WITH coach but never a players only meeting

so berry never addressed the team a couple of weeks ago?

 

[nctransplant]

so berry never addressed the team a couple of weeks ago?

I believe he interrupted Williams while he was addressing the team post game.

 

[gteeitup]

I believe he interrupted Williams while he was addressing the team post game.

got it...i’ve seen “addressed the team after a game” so maybe it was a misleading headline.

however, that alone should be enough, imo.

 

[dadika13]

For the 1,000th time...we aren't good enough this season to consistently beat good ACC teams in their gym.

And that's ok, we won a natty last year.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

got it...i’ve seen “addressed the team after a game” so maybe it was a misleading headline.

however, that alone should be enough, imo.

It's all good and sometimes that is enough and sometimes you need to have a players only meeting to hold some people accountable. I agree with dadika we aren't talented enough to beat good acc teams on the road night in night out Manley is a yr away so is jalek and seventh hasn't been healthy since the summer before his freshman year. Next yr if everyone returns look out sweet sixteen or elite eight is still the upper 95% of college hoops enjoy the ride. The only issue I am having is the ole defense.

 

[imajericho]

To me the problem has rarely been about UNC defending or not defending the 3... It's been what feels like a decade of UNC being unable to defend dribble penetration. I know the jerk reaction is "we should just stop helping off of shooters"... but if we do that, the other team is going to just have a sea of layups. Especially in a year where we have basically no rim protection.

I'm starting to wonder if Roy's gonna have to get us out of the man-to-man more. I was really shocked and almost dumbfounded that we didn't go zone a single possession last night. I admittedly cut the game off at around the 5 minute mark.

We constantly, myself included, complain about getting beat by 3 point shots. But the reality of the situation is that these shots are almost always set up by guards easily penetrating into the lane. Stop the dribble drive and we're going to limit the 3s. I'm just not sure we can do that right now in the man-to-man.

Is there a reason one of the inside guys not guarding a 3 point threat can't help instead of everyone guarding the guys sitting on the perimeter?

 

[imajericho]

The good news is that if we Villanova and just shoot very good for like 4/5 of the 6 games in the NCAA tournament, we are unbeatable and will win the championship.

The bad news is, we likely won't and are relying on luck which could also sweep us out of the tourney in the first weekend.

 

[gary-7]

On top of that, Theo's defender is basically playing a 1 man zone, because they have no respect for his jumper...so that's another defender that can stand in and clog the paint. So we have no driving lanes to make defenders play us more honest, and that's causing us to shoot long, contested 3s.

I want to address that because everyone in my circle was talking about it a few games ago --- the ball is sticking to Theo's hands these days, and that's had a ripple effect. He's handling from the top way too much and as you said, the defender plays a one-man zone because they know what he's gonna do --- drive. Sure, he gets some Assists but at what cost? The cost is a clogged lane plus lack of team movement because it disrupts the Passing Game and creates more TOs. And because the lane is clogged he usually ends up having to do something acrobatic just to get the ball to the rim.

Theo also needs to give the ball up and pitch ahead on the Secondary (his dribbling too much in transition is slowing us down as well), and work himself back into the offense. He has always been better at catching-and-passing (his best Assists come off being the second passer) or catching-and-driving. Trying to be a Point-Forward in a half-court setting is antithetical to a motion offense. Bottom line is if everyone is moving and the ball is moving then everything opens up.

I used to tell teams that even Middle School defenses are pretty good against the first pass, but defenses get less good with each subsequent pass. We're not configured to be a Dribble-Drive team (unless Roy does a complete offensive about-face). Our drives need to come off of motion.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Hey, this shouldnt shock anyone. We knew we had a lot of holes coming in. We will win some and we will lose some, enjoy the ride.

 

[midline]

I noticed the same about Theo also. Most notably the other night. Most seem to playing UNC from a defensive standpoint of not letting Berry have a good look, and not letting Maye spot up on the outside as they feel he can be handled inside. Against VT whether at the top, or wing, Theo was controlling the ball. He is stuck in one place like he is waiting for someone to magically break open cutting through a clogged lane. And the rest of the team seems to be standing around watching him. Roy has addressed this a few times in post game, about how they aren’t moving on offense. Hopefully it improves