Withers is starting material IMO. JWash can certainly play the 4 but we might need him more at 5. High showed excellent form on his shot, a very high motor, and a really good work ethic. I see no reason not to expect him to make a jump. Tyson can play small ball 4 and give peeps a change of pace on O. I do not see any value in Thiero that cannot be supplied by peeps already on our roster. I don't see any evidence showing JWash can't play the 4 and I am confused why peeps say this. He will need strength and work on his footwork, but who doesn't think he will get these?
Razor Thin Margin for Error
- Thread starter NorCalTarheel
- Start date
I both hope and think we will get Omouryi but I would not see him playing Bacot like minutes, I think he is a 22-28min guy. That does leave a good bit more minutes for Jalen as our back up 5.
Yeah, that is what I have been saying as well, Therio = Jwit = Styles, why bring in a guy that is basically replication that forces the guy you already have to the portal? I don't typically go shopping to buy what I already have, I buy what I don't have but think I either need or want. Now I would love for us to bring in Omouryi as well as Oyensa from Ky, a 7ft guy to play now and one to develop, that would move Jalen to the 4 for ME !
On JWit, I consider him starter quality, needs some polish this off season. Doesn't mean he will start, doesn't even mean I want him to start, it means I think he can and we play well, I see Seth and Jalen as very similar in that regard. Guys like that get solid minutes no matter who is in the game at tip off.
KAPS I wish I was as confident as you are with our front court stable as it stands, but I just can't get there.
I think both JW's and High are really good complimentary pieces, but we need starter materials at the four and five if we are are going to reach the level we are now aiming for (FF and Natty level). I think each has the potential to get there eventually, but, if it were up to me (and it obviously is not), I would not bet our entire season and our last run with RJ on their progression.
I REALLY hope each of our current rostered bigs make huge strides and blow up next year but I'd hate for us to be saying that is our only missing piece next season when we have the "insurance option" now.
I don't base my " Highness" of Zayden off his Freshman season. Now there were things that I did like. His energetic motor, his nose for the ball and his quick twitch muscle fibers.
I base my " Interest " in Zayden because I watched a half dozen of his games at Compass Prep and some of his Summer games. At compass prep he was in control and was the only inside presence for that team. He rebounded, set picks, finished inside and protected the rim.
Compass had the lead in a few games because High was on the floor then lost leads down the stretch going to small ball approach. Poor game calling in my opinion.
That Zayden was completely sped up as a Freshman, playing 1,000 miles per hour. His propensity to foul wasn't really there in HS.
His 3 point shot looked like a Blue team player getting shots up, rather than the controlled high release jumper I was used to seeing.
Will he breakout in next season? I don't know, but Bacot, Jawad Williams and Deon Thompson all remarked about his potential at different times in the last year.
He won't breakout being the 5th big. I think he should get a look unless he is just filler for one more year and then a transfer. Which he will be.
Eh, idk about that. I think freshman Brice would've gotten minutes in every game last season because he does a lot of things better than Washington. Hicks was also playing on a team that had McAdoo, Brice, Meeks in the rotation, plus Roy had an infatuation with Joel James that season for some reason and Desmond Hubert was still part of the rotation. He had more competition for minutes.
This isn't to say that High won't improve. I'm assuming he will. But there hasn't been this track record of UNC bigs that don't play much as freshman, while being outside of the top 50 recruits, to go on to have really productive UNC careers. If you think his talent level rivals Brice and Hicks, then fine. I'm probably not willing to go that far but in fairness I haven't seen him play enough minutes to have any concrete opinion on him either way.
He has more tools than Desmond Hubert, Brandon Huffman, and Joel James so I'm not fearing that. But he would have to do quite well for himself to turn into even a starter-level big man at UNC if history means anything.
I hope you are right. I haven't really seen High at all. I can't say I'm all that interested in his non-UNC games, but you've seen him more than me. And my comments on High aren't definitive either way. Personally, I think he's an unknown at this point.
The compliments from former players are great. But I seldom ever hear a former player say "that guy sucks" lol.
My $0.02 - neither High nor Withers have shown the discipline to be able to avoid foul trouble and stay on the court starter minutes. Washington is not strong enough to defend the 5 and not quick enough to defend a 4.
Can any of these issues be resolved in an off-season, yes. Right now the front court is a complete mystery, both in terms of personnel and ability. I think UNC NEEDS to pick up an experienced big in the portal and would prefer two. Doubt two is possible as we already have 3 on the roster competing for post time.
Can any of these issues be resolved in an off-season, yes. Right now the front court is a complete mystery, both in terms of personnel and ability. I think UNC NEEDS to pick up an experienced big in the portal and would prefer two. Doubt two is possible as we already have 3 on the roster competing for post time.
You might be on to something about track record, so I won't completely po po it.
That being said, Huberts track record started 3 years ago and it seems the previous comparisons don't carry as much weight with me.
I will just wait and hope for the best. I won't ever hope against a player just so I can be right on a debate.
I have said JWASH can't defend well enough to play the 4.
I so want to be WRONG about that this year, becI think HE is our best current offensive player on the frontline.
True. But in each case of Jawad and Deon
( seperate interviews) they were asked, who stood out to you during the Summer? They were not asked about Zayden High, they offered his name themselves.
JS
Withers is starting material on what kind of team? I know he can start. He started for a Louisville team that went like winless in the ACC, lol.
As of now, I don't think a Tyson, Withers/Washington is a good enough frontline to contend for a Final Four unless you get a 5 who's a borderline All-American quality player. From what I've seen Tyson can't play the 4 unless the opponent is playing a 4 who is a true 3. But he's a critically important addition. If UNC has one of the 5 best shooters in the country, then that will mask some deficiencies.
The only way I see Withers being starting quality is if you write it in pen he'll shoot 35%+ from 3. I honestly thought last year was the perfect role for him because his inconsistency (which he's had now for 4 seasons) isn't as costly for 8-12 minutes/game.
It’s a Night and Day difference between Coach Williams and Coach Davis with playing guys…Roy played everybody lol….
Thiero is a strong, athletic guy. Well built. NBA body and athleticism. None of the guys I listed above are that. We lost significant toughness with HI's departure. That needs to be replaced. It may not be Thiero. But I think we better find it somewhere. I'm still holding out hope that we get Cliff. But even then, we may still be a man down there.
Withers has not had the experience of our level of culture,coaching + strength/conditioning. I expect him to be more consistent + greatly improved at least mentally and not one team has HAD to have a 4 who shot 35% from 3 in history! Teams have had good 3pt shooting 4s but it is not necessary. You seem to ignore my body of work which consistently says I want a true big bodied 5, but I think a lineup with JWash at 5 CAN contend! Who said our froncourt would be JWash, JWit, and Tyson?
I would like:
EC, RJ, Capt./Tyson, JWash, Omyuri!
Seth, Drake, JWit, Tyson/Capt., High, Brown to rotate in where needed! 11 peeps all getting minutes with the majority in double digits! Looks like a contender to me!
(If O doesn't pop, JWash is 5 and JWit slides in at 4 and/or we get a portal dude)
I would like:
EC, RJ, Capt./Tyson, JWash, Omyuri!
Seth, Drake, JWit, Tyson/Capt., High, Brown to rotate in where needed! 11 peeps all getting minutes with the majority in double digits! Looks like a contender to me!
(If O doesn't pop, JWash is 5 and JWit slides in at 4 and/or we get a portal dude)
Toppin has me intrigued. 3 years of eligibility and probably a better offensive player than Thiero.
I just think we need a more complete player to just give someone the position over Withers, High and Washington.
Admittedly, I know nothing about Toppin other than he is 6'7 and 205. That is thin! Feels like we need a little more bulk in that spot.
We'll agree to disagree gsd .. I think with a few lbs. wash could serve the 4 spot well. I think in some games he could also play the 5. We'll find out together my friend.
I haven't followed the portal all that closely so I don't know what the consensus is for Cliff. But he would be a different type of 5 than what UNC has had in recent memory. I don't think he's all that skilled offensively. He can basically only go over his left shoulder from the right block. But an elite offensive rebounder. UNC's usually had a guy they could throw the ball inside to score. I don't think Cliff is that. He's not a particularly efficient scorer. Maybe he will get better at UNC with more skill around him. He probably won't be asked to score as much. But it will be a different look.
He should be a huge asset defensively. Rutgers was a top 10 defense and I'm assuming it had a lot to do with him anchoring it.
I think you need a shooting 4 next to him. I know @TPFKAPFS disagrees. It's probably best to have the lane wide open for him so he can screen and dive to the rim. Ideally, Cadeau and Cliff would have 3 plus shooters with them in the starting lineup. I think it gets dicey offensively with a traditional 4 unless Cadeau doubles his 3PT percentage YOY.
Last edited:
I don't disagree with the thing you said there.
What about Cliff with Washington at the 4? Other than JWash's defensive question mark, Cliff, Washington/ Withers, Cade/Ian, RJ, EC with Drake, Seth is a pretty darn good lineup. I'd say FF caliber good. Theiro puts us over the top but he feels unrealistic.
*I meant to say Cliff can go over his left shoulder. Would be something if a righty could shoot hooks over his right shoulder!
I should start by saying with Washington that I probably have some bias built in because I don't think he's a starting-caliber player on a serious team. So I'll have to be proven otherwise before I probably give it a fair thought.
The Washington/Cliff pairing depends on a few factors. First, if you think Washington can really shoot it with good efficiency and volume from 3, then that opens up the conversation. I'm pretty wary of Washington defensively even if Cliff is on the floor. There are going to be certain matchups that he's just going to struggle. But having a true shot alterer at the rim will help the entire defense.
My biggest concern with Withers/Washington and Cliff is there's been a recent trend that teams that make deep March runs are able to play through their big and their big is skilled enough to have the whole offense run through them. I don't think Cliff is that player. I don't think Washington is a skilled enough ball-handler or passer to be that player. I wouldn't trust Withers with that kind of responsibility. I know it's different for UNC because it's a more PG dependent system. But it seems pretty important to have a big you can run your offense through.
The biggest wild card too is Hubert has never coached a team that didn't have a big you can throw the ball to when you wanted a good look. So it's hard for me to just assume a lot of this. Even though I'm assuming what will happen with certain hypothetical lineups, lol. I'm just going off what I've seen and what some numbers are saying about the lineup combo. There's really no way I can predict how Hubert will play with this lineup.
For the record, the sportsbooks have UNC as around the 5th best odds to win the National Championship. So I may definitely be in the minority. Fwiw, I don't think Cliff would drastically increase or decrease those odds.
JWash IS a shooting 4! I believe he will be a + shooter out to 3 pt land, but I'm positive he will be a shooter from the mid range! JWash 15-18 feet from the rim opens up the lane just as much as being 19-20 feet does if he hits a good %. He can move and his form is textbook. He knows he needs work on strengthening his lower body but I bet they are also working on his moves/counters so he can get that turn around from different angles! IN fact, the very post referred to had him at 4 giving EC 3 + shooters! EC improved, Tyson added, JWash showing his form is not just window dressing, RJ being RJ, and Big May working with Big O and WOW!
(I still don't think you need 3 3PT shooters, but the team does need 3 scorers and at least 2 3pt specialists to keep the D honest.)
I do agree with the idea that Hubs and UNC before him have traditionally designed their O to be funneled through a skilled Big that demands attention. I disagree with the idea that Hubs and staff will have even the slightest issue with the team as constructed! Pro experience teaches you to adjust and adjust quickly! O or another true portal post are key to the safe route, but I believe we have enough right now to contend!
KAPS - I really like JWash at the 4 WITH Omoruyi for the reasons you just posted but NOT as our starting 5 (if we could just get @Dsouther on board 🤣). I posted this on four corners yesterday related to having Jalen be our starting FIVE....
I'd hate to bet the season on JWash 1). Developing muscle, balance and defensive chops over the summer, 2). Playing the type of minutes required from a starter (especially with the question marks on all of his back ups) and 3). Not having a viable contingency plan in the event of injury or continued propensity to foul trouble.
Now before anyone goes all "Hating on JWash" on me, I want all those things from him NEXT YEAR ('25-'26). I want more time for him to grow into that role without the weight of our entire season on him. He played what, 8 minutes a game this year? Let's get him to the 12-15 minutes this year and let him loose in '25-'26.
Folks, we have an opportunity for something special with the addition of a legit 5 (and maybe the right 4). I want to have Washington play a big role in that, just not as big as some of you. He is as close to "developing talent" as I think we are going to get in the new "portal age".
We will be good next year. I want to be great, sweep dook again and mess around at the FF and see what happens
100% THIS ^^^^^!
Ideally we get that 7 ft broad shouldered Big but I think we have the 4 nailed down! I know all other positions are on lock! I think of JWash being our starter at 5 as a contingency plan!
Ideally we get that 7 ft broad shouldered Big but I think we have the 4 nailed down! I know all other positions are on lock! I think of JWash being our starter at 5 as a contingency plan!
