Recent Point Guards

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Glancing at some stats, I noticed that Caleb is currently sporting an ORtg of 83.9 and a TS% of 40.7. Those numbers struck me as rather low, so I decided to check those stats for other UNC PGs and major PG backups. Here's what I found. These are each player's best year using Pomeroy's numbers.

Player	Offensive Rating	True Shooting Percentage
Cale Love	83.9	40.7
RJ Davis	93.4	46.2
Anthony Cole	97.6	50.1
Coby White	108.8	55.5
Seventh Woods	84.1	48.1
Joel Berry	122.2 - (111.2)	57.4 - (53.6)
Jalek Felton	91.9	48.6
Nate Britt	109.5	54.4
Marcus Paige	120.1 - (96.4)	59.2 - (48.3)
Kendall Marshall	113.0 - (100.4)	55.8 - (50.8)
Larry Drew	94.1	50.3
Ty Lawson	134.3 - (116.0)	65.9 - (58.1)
Quentin Thomas	98.8	61.2
Bobby Frasor	97.2	48.5
Raymond Felton	110.7 - (100.2)	58.9 - (50.9)

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Looking at those results, I could argue that it isn't really fair to compare freshman results of our recent PGs with the best results of guys like Joel, Marcus, Ty and Raymond. I may return and add the frosh numbers for those guys if there's any interest.

 

[Heelicious]

Glancing at some stats, I noticed that Caleb is currently sporting an ORtg of 83.9 and a TS% of 40.7. Those numbers struck me as rather low, so I decided to check those stats for other UNC PGs and major PG backups. Here's what I found. These are each player's best year using Pomeroy's numbers.

Player	Offensive Rating	True Shooting Percentage
Cale Love	83.9	40.7
RJ Davis	93.4	46.2
Anthony Cole	97.6	50.1
Coby White	108.8	55.5
Seventh Woods	84.1	48.1
Joel Berry	122.2	57.4
Jalek Felton	91.9	48.6
Nate Britt	109.5	54.4
Marcus Paige	120.1	59.2
Kendall Marshall	113.0	55.8
Larry Drew	94.1	50.3
Ty Lawson	134.3	65.9
Quentin Thomas	98.8	61.2
Bobby Frasor	97.2	48.5
Raymond Felton	110.7	58.9

This is interesting, and seems pretty accurate reflection to sort out productivity.

We have to hope if Love sticks around, vast improvement occurs over the next year. Being DFL behind guys like Seventh Woods, Jalek Felton, Larry Drew, way behind Nate Britt - freaking embarrassing.

How can Love think the NBA sees anything in him right now that is even ready for development level work? If he doesn't listen and work to be a team player at this level, how does he expect (how do NBA execs expect) him to "turn it on", change, at the next level?

RJ is a minor train wreck too. How hard would it be to have him change his shot to have more arc? I don't know of any successful shooter on any level with that flat of a shot.

 

[tarheel0910]

Looking at those results, I could argue that it isn't really fair to compare freshman results of our recent PGs with the best results of guys like Joel, Marcus, Ty and Raymond. I may return and add the frosh numbers for those guys if there's any interest.

I think you're right about it being more fair to compare freshman years. Interesting numbers to look at either way though.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

RJ is a minor train wreck too. How hard would it be to have him change his shot to have more arc? I don't know of any successful shooter on any level with that flat of a shot.

The other thing I'd change about RJ is that he goes ballistic too often. By which I mean that at some point he'll start a drive and the only thing on his mind is shooting. Doesn't matter if Sharpe or Kessler are standing open next to the basket waiting for the dish. Doesn't matter if he's triple-teamed and can't even see the basket for all the hands and bodies in the way. He's going to shoot. Period.

I'm no coach, but I'd be inclined to tell RJ to drive and dish. Both in practice and in a real game or 2, he's not allowed to drive and shoot, even if he's wide open for the layup. Break him out of that ballistic mode.

I still think RJ is going to be a terrific PG for us. But he has work to do.

 

[Bubspub88]

As you said it's comparing apples and oranges to look at Love's freshman stats compared to a Lawson who was ACC poy his last year. Comparisons also somewhat skewed due to differing team make-ups. Love has arguably the best frontcourt to play with but the worst outside shooting around him. I know some people (not taking a jab at you WWJD) use the stats to gauge the effectiveness but I still prefer the eye test, and Caleb falls far short in that area. He has some flashes of excellence, but Carolina basketball is supposed to be a tradition of excellence and not just flashes.

I expect Love to leave so I'm hoping Davis can really get some pg guidance in the offseason from guys like Berry, Felton and Paige.

 

[keysersosay#1]

Why does seemingly everyone EXPECT LOve to leave??? Is this some inside info that he was always a OAD and gonna go and has told Roy, staff etc?? It CANNOT possibly be because the NBA is just drooling over him, especially after watching his performance over the last three months

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I added in the freshman numbers for several players - (in parentheses).

 

[dadika13]

All this did was just make me miss Ty Lawson, thanks.

 

[Heelicious]

I added in the freshman numbers for several players - (in parentheses).

Thanks for this! I know they likely all had better supporting people around them, but imagine having any of those five you posted the frosh stats for, back to watch.

Maybe they will get there, but RJ and Love aren't remotely even in the conversation of comparing to these other guys you listed frosh stats for. A total beatdown comparison.

And - I think you can easily argue that all five of those guys were facing much tougher ACC competition than Love and Davis this year. Its not like ACC has a lot of world beaters as teams this year. Way down from the ACC over last 20 years.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

All this did was just make me miss Ty Lawson, thanks.

You bet.

For me, I knew he was good, but this really reinforces that impression.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Thanks for this! I know they likely all had better supporting people around them, but imagine having any of those five you posted the frosh stats for, back to watch.

Maybe they will get there, but RJ and Love aren't remotely even in the conversation of comparing to these other guys you listed frosh stats for. A total beatdown comparison.

And - I think you can easily argue that all five of those guys were facing much tougher ACC competition than Love and Davis this year. Its not like ACC has a lot of world beaters as teams this year. Way down from the ACC over last 20 years.

I notice that Cole's numbers are similar to Marcus's freshman numbers. Which makes me wonder how Cole would have done with that 2013 team.

That team had a serious deficit inside, but awesome perimeter players and abundant 3 point shooters. Here was that starting lineup with 3-pt percentages for key players

McAdoo
Bullock (43.6)
Hairston (39.6)
Strickland
Paige (34.4)

If you have Marcus share SG and backup PG and hand Cole the reins, what happens to that 25-11 team? That would be fun to watch. Or maybe I just miss having a team that can hit from deep.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Who would be the best PG for this year's team?

You can't go wrong with several of them, but I might pick Kendall. We have a lot of good bigs and Kendall was the absolute master at hitting bigs with passes when and where they could finish.

 

[dadika13]

You bet.

For me, I knew he was good, but this really reinforces that impression.

Best UNC PG of my lifetime watching UNC, which goes back to 1992-93 range.

 

[Bubspub88]

Several could really help this team

Phil Ford (he's always to answer to a question about Tar Heel pg's for me)
Ray Felton
Kenny Smith

I think you need a guy who can shoot reasonably well from deep, very reliable at the line but is just as content to have 12 assists and 8 points as 20 points. A guy like Steve Hale, Jimmy Black or John Kuester might not run the pace Roy wants but values the ball.

 

[strummingram]

Why does seemingly everyone EXPECT LOve to leave??? Is this some inside info that he was always a OAD and gonna go and has told Roy, staff etc?? It CANNOT possibly be because the NBA is just drooling over him, especially after watching his performance over the last three months

Love isn't interested in playing college basketball. I wish Roy and his staff would stop recruiting these OAD players entirely. They aren't team players.

 

[Heelicious]

Best UNC PG of my lifetime watching UNC, which goes back to 1992-93 range.

The only other guy I thought of who would be interesting to see - is Ed Cota. There are other guys like King Rice or Derrick Phelps or even Jimmy Black if you go way back, but I have to assume Cota would fare well on this comparison also.

@What Would Jesus Do? thanks again for doing this. Likely this stat goes into the overall offensive rating you listed, but the one other number I'd like to see for these guys is the assist / TO ratio, even if on a pure freshman-to-freshman basis. Even with the bad shooting, I think the Love and Davis A/TO ratio is worse - which is hard to imagine how this is possible.....
and guys like Felton, Marshall, Berry, Lawson - would absolutely embarrass / destroy Love or Davis in the very important A/TO ratio comparison, I think. Even for freshman year.

And one more thing... maybe this isn't the right thread for this, because we are talking about PGs as freshmen, but at least by the time these guys I'll list were sophs, they would not put up with, or allow any of the casual careless asleep "Play soft. Play Dumb. Play Apart" BS that goes on so frequently with this years team.

Marshall. Felton. Lawson. Berry. Just for starters. Even relatively quiet guards / wings like Paige or HBarnes. Do you think for a second they'd allow this team to go through the motions, turn the ball over incessantly, etc. without getting in their grill; holding the team accountable? I don't.

 

[strummingram]

The only other guy I thought of who would be interesting to see - is Ed Cota. There are other guys like King Rice or Derrick Phelps or even Jimmy Black if you go way back, but I have to assume Cota would fare well on this comparison also.

@What Would Jesus Do? thanks again for doing this. Likely this stat goes into the overall offensive rating you listed, but the one other number I'd like to see for these guys is the assist / TO ratio, even if on a pure freshman-to-freshman basis. Even with the bad shooting, I think the Love and Davis A/TO ratio is worse - which is hard to imagine how this is possible.....
and guys like Felton, Marshall, Berry, Lawson - would absolutely embarrass / destroy Love or Davis in the very important A/TO ratio comparison, I think. Even for freshman year.

And one more thing... maybe this isn't the right thread for this, because we are talking about PGs as freshmen, but at least by the time these guys I'll list were sophs, they would not put up with, or allow any of the casual careless asleep "Play soft. Play Dumb. Play Apart" BS that goes on so frequently with this years team.

Marshall. Felton. Lawson. Berry. Just for starters. Even relatively quiet guards / wings like Paige or HBarnes. Do you think for a second they'd allow this team to go through the motions, turn the ball over incessantly, etc. without getting in their grill; holding the team accountable? I don't.

The TEAM with Ed Cota was just badass!!! It was like watching the NBA. They were so much fun to watch.

 

[heels05champs]

Best UNC PG of my lifetime watching UNC, which goes back to 1992-93 range.

Easily the best pg I’ve ever seen at Carolina. I started following them around the same time as you.

 

[Tribgrywubb68]

Lawson was just a monster. I also love coby white and Imagine if he had stayed 2-3 years.

 

[strummingram]

Lawson was just a monster. I also love coby white and Imagine if he had stayed 2-3 years.

I wish Kendall Marshall would have stayed at least ONE more year.

 

[Tribgrywubb68]

I wish Kendall Marshall would have stayed at least ONE more year.

kendall might actually be one of my favorites. He should’ve stayed one more year, best passer I’ve seen at Unc. Also those teams he was on Werereally snake bitten with key injuries at crucial times, they were really fun to watch and should’ve won a championship.

amazing how much better college basketball was as a whole just back in like 2011-12.

 

[Green C14]

Phil Jackson Ford Jr. remains the best college point guard and the second best overall college player that I've had the pleasure to see play the game.

 

[IDUNK4HEELS]

Let’s hope when Dunn arrives this summer he can show some real point guard skills..

 

[tarheel0910]

Best UNC PG of my lifetime watching UNC, which goes back to 1992-93 range.

If that is your timeline, then the correct answer is...

Ed Cota

 

[DSouthr]

Phil Jackson Ford Jr. remains the best college point guard and the second best overall college player that I've had the pleasure to see play the game.

Jerry West was the LOGO in the NBA, Phil is, was, will always be IMO Mr UNC. If I could assemble a team of UNC players and they all be in their prime, I take Phil as my very first selection, then Jordan, then Scott, then Worthy, then I would have to think about it for the rest...

Best college player I have ever seen was Alcindor...

 

[DSouthr]

Let’s hope when Dunn arrives this summer he can show some real point guard skills..

I am not expecting a ton from either Styles or Dunn as freshmen, I see them more as solid producers near end of soph season and as big time guys as Jrs. KInda have seen Puff in that light as well and so far that look about right. Hate Puff has had a injury problem, his season started off behind with the covid stuff and this injury has kept him shut down, would have liked to have seen how much he could have progressed with some PT this season but it does not seem to be in the cards for his this time.

BTW, Dunn is a 2 guard, he isn't a point...

 

[imajericho]

Caleb Love and RJ Davis had a trainwreck start to the season. They both are improving though.

 

[strummingram]

Caleb Love and RJ Davis had a trainwreck start to the season. They both are improving though.

I can see improvement from Davis, for sure. Neither of them have improved a lot, though. Love seems like he can't wait to go pro, maybe it's just me.

 

[Heelicious]

I can see improvement from Davis, for sure. Neither of them have improved a lot, though. Love seems like he can't wait to go pro, maybe it's just me.

You could be right. I get that vibe from him, too.

I guess we knew that was the case with Cole, too. Coby just sort of blew up in a good way.

I know we want good players, but I'd much rather have a 4-star that you could develop into a 3-4 year good-to-great team player by junior or senior year, than some guy who is only set to use college as a brief showcase and connection-maker for the NBA. I mean seriously - what have the OADs done for Dook and UK and even us, in the last 5-6 years? Even with guys like Tatum, Zion, etc.

If players put no value or appreciation in the college experience, the joy of being part of a team, the value and joy in contributing to actually winning something, having success, being part of a forever Family, and all the tradition, etc. - while getting a very good basketball and life education....
if that all holds zero value for the recruit, then I believe we recruited the wrong kid.

Coby did awesome, and I was happy Anthony chose us. But to me, they are less a part of the UNC family and what I think of as UNC basketball than even a reserve, role player who stayed three or four years, gave a ton to the program over the four years, got to experience senior day, etc.

Just such a higher investment and commitment to UNC from those kids than the OADs.

I get it. In their shoes I'd want to get paid ASAP too, and not risk losing millions to injury. I also think its near unanimous that great players and people who left early, later regret that decision, and are really jealous of not being a senior leader, experiencing senior night....not having 2 or 3 more years of just being a kid or a young man....having to grow up too fast, with no real classmates or "teammates" in the G League, overseas, etc.

 

[Steat]

Caleb Love is another kid that will be better as an NBA player. Everyone of Roy's NCAA titles have been with "true" point guards.