Laughing and joking about cell phones and only talking about what went wrong OFFENSIVELY. Roy wouldn't be laughing and joking after a loss to NC State. He hates NC State. Then, of course, he doesn't even talk defense in the presser. It wasn't a secret anyway, but it's obvious what he emphasizes in practice and what he doesn't. No wonder Duke has dominated us since Tyler graduated, and we're 4-12 in the last 16.
Roy's presser on home page
- Thread starter theslickster
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Kudos to him for a positive outlook, but im NEVER that jovial after losing to the evil empire. Seems K makes the game vs Unc like the Super Bowl to his players, while for us, it's just another game imo
I don't disagree with the things he did bring up, but the acres of space for 3 point shooters certainly would seem to bear mentioning. I wonder why no one asked him about it. Seems to be a pretty big theme when we lose to them
Yeah, there's no doubt that Roy takes the moo rivalry a lot more seriously than the duke rivalry. It's almost like Roy feels lucky to get a split with duke every year. He just doesn't have the drive to beat them like they apparently do to beat us. It is frustrating.
But I don't care that he's "jovial". I'm glad losses don't stick with him. I prefer his attitude. That game is over. Let's not dwell on it. Move on and get ready to go into Raleigh and beat moo. We'll get duke again and I think we'll have a little something ready for them when they come top our house.
But I don't care that he's "jovial". I'm glad losses don't stick with him. I prefer his attitude. That game is over. Let's not dwell on it. Move on and get ready to go into Raleigh and beat moo. We'll get duke again and I think we'll have a little something ready for them when they come top our house.
I don't know. Doesn't seem like good leadership to me. What if our players followed that lead? Laughing and joking after a loss, especially one to Duke. I'm sick of losing to Duke, and frankly I don't get it! It's the same thing every game with them. Three pointers. Either Roy has no idea how to guard the three point line, is just plain stubborn (like with not using timeouts), or Coach K can coach circles around Roy. Talent wise, there is no reason Duke should be flat out dominating us. This loss does matter or has the potential to. We can't be naive, and say it doesn't.
Dook can only beat Carolina one way and by gosh we give them exactly what they need to beat us. They didn't have a chance to beat this Carolina team inside the perimeter. Everybody knows that except whoever prepares our defensive game plan. So, our strategy is to give them wide open 3's and take away the drive which is exactly what they want us to do. As a result, they hit 13 treys and many of them had nobody within 5 feet of the shooter.
It is basic math. 40% from three is the same as 50% from two. When is the last time you walked into the Y and saw young kids shooting a 10, 12 or 15 footer. Everyone shoots the three. It is not a difficult shot yet Roy refuses to change his style. I was proud of most of the effort last night especially since Hicks did not play. Berry was off and Williams did not show up at all on the offensive end. Seemed to me everyone else stepped up and kept us in it.
Nice timeout used by K to stop our run in the second half. Wonder what he was able to say to the boy's? Isn't that why Roy refuses to stop runs by calling a timeout? "What would I say to them?"
Nice timeout used by K to stop our run in the second half. Wonder what he was able to say to the boy's? Isn't that why Roy refuses to stop runs by calling a timeout? "What would I say to them?"
Go back to math class. 50% from 2 is the same as 33% from 3.
2/6 3s = 6 points
3/6 2s = 6 points.
To me it is not what you say during a run, it's to try and break the rhythm the other team has going
dook bases their offense around the trey and we dare teams to beat us from outside. We encourage them to play to their strength. Ergo our poor record against them in recent years. That's on Roy and his refusal to change his position re: defending the 3-PT shot. To say it frustrates me is the understatement of the century!
Unless a team is killing you in the paint, stay with your freakin' man! Such a simple concept but one that completely eludes Roy.
Unless a team is killing you in the paint, stay with your freakin' man! Such a simple concept but one that completely eludes Roy.
It actually is simple math. It's a 1.5 impact. Duke shot 13/27 from 3 (48.1%). 3 is 1.5 of 2, so shooting 48.1% from 3 is like shooting 72.2% from 2.
If you are playing a team that shoots the three well, you are statistically better off playing them straight up and making them beat you from 2. You are also taking them out of their normal game.....which is disruptive in and of itself. Had we extended the defense and forced them to shoot less threes.....they would've had to shoot 1.5 times better from 2 to equal the same production. Roy's philosophy goes back to Dean...when the three was introduced. But, players have 30+ years of knowing about the three and shooting more and more from three. On numbers, the philosophy of sagging so much off the three isn't as accurate as it once was.
If you are playing a team that shoots the three well, you are statistically better off playing them straight up and making them beat you from 2. You are also taking them out of their normal game.....which is disruptive in and of itself. Had we extended the defense and forced them to shoot less threes.....they would've had to shoot 1.5 times better from 2 to equal the same production. Roy's philosophy goes back to Dean...when the three was introduced. But, players have 30+ years of knowing about the three and shooting more and more from three. On numbers, the philosophy of sagging so much off the three isn't as accurate as it once was.
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Exactly! It's not rocket science. It's why teams zone us to try and limit our points in the paint, which is our strength. They try to make us beat them from outside which takes us out of our comfort zone. Look at our losses and 3 of the 5 are a result of this.
It's one thing to have a defensive philosophy. But to not tweak it according to who you're playing is being too rigid in your philosophy. Now I'm going to try and drop it because my BP's rising just thinking about it.
Exactly! It's not rocket science. It's why teams zone us to try and limit our points in the paint, which is our strength. They try to make us beat them from outside which takes us out of our comfort zone. Look at our losses and 3 of the 5 are a result of this.
It's one thing to have a defensive philosophy. But to not tweak it according to who you're playing is being too rigid in your philosophy. Now I'm going to try and drop it because my BP's rising just thinking about it.
In a 1 game scenario it's not a bad look or unreasonable for UNC to lose to Dook this season. Especially in Cameron , not like they are a scrub team talent wise. I feel confident if UNC had to play them in a 7 game series it would be UNC in 6 maybe 7. UNC is the better team but not by a ton. I mean anybody in the ACC can beat anyone on a given night.
We were in a position to win, despite Isaiah being out, making only 10 of 18 FT's, and playing at H.I.S. against a healthy dook team with half a dozen potential NBA players. I give Roy credit for that. And to be within one point with a minute to go in that environment is very encouraging. Make our FT's and we still probably win.
But why play to dook's strengths? Why not try to limit what they prefer to do and take them out of their comfort zone? Why the hell not? Isn't that why Dean used multiple defenses? Isn't that why teams zone us so much?
But why play to dook's strengths? Why not try to limit what they prefer to do and take them out of their comfort zone? Why the hell not? Isn't that why Dean used multiple defenses? Isn't that why teams zone us so much?
The three point shot is no longer a "novelty" or something for desperation time. I see middle school kids who can knock it down fairly easily. Their 3 pt line is a foot closer, but big deal, kids grow up practicing 3 pointers.
I have two questions about Roy"s "coaching" in the game. Just before the half he took Bradley out and had basically a 3 pt defense, small team in the game. Then Duke was getting a throw in from the baseline, forget why, and he put Bradley back in. So of course, Duke works the perimeter and Allen sinks a 3 pointer, making the fans go nuts.
The clock had 3.9 seconds on it, and the 'heels struggled to inbound the ball and take a 80 foot "shot" as time expired. They had a "use it or lose it" TO left, why not take it and try to get a better chance of scoring before halftime? OK maybe it's not a real good chance, but better than they had. Remember what Hill and Laetner did with 2.1 seconds? Are the 'heels and Roy so against using TOs in the 1st half, they didn't consider using they one they were going to lose anyway?!?! The team should have been instructed. if Duke scores, call TO! No rational excuse for doing otherwise!
I've said it many times, Roy is an average game coach!
I have two questions about Roy"s "coaching" in the game. Just before the half he took Bradley out and had basically a 3 pt defense, small team in the game. Then Duke was getting a throw in from the baseline, forget why, and he put Bradley back in. So of course, Duke works the perimeter and Allen sinks a 3 pointer, making the fans go nuts.
The clock had 3.9 seconds on it, and the 'heels struggled to inbound the ball and take a 80 foot "shot" as time expired. They had a "use it or lose it" TO left, why not take it and try to get a better chance of scoring before halftime? OK maybe it's not a real good chance, but better than they had. Remember what Hill and Laetner did with 2.1 seconds? Are the 'heels and Roy so against using TOs in the 1st half, they didn't consider using they one they were going to lose anyway?!?! The team should have been instructed. if Duke scores, call TO! No rational excuse for doing otherwise!
I've said it many times, Roy is an average game coach!
I've said it many times, Roy is an average game coach!
"Average game coach" would NEVER have his record much less 2 Championships.
Roy's won a ton of games. What's nerve wracking about Roy though is the things he refuses to do (call timeouts, learn how to defend the high pick and roll, learn how to defend the 3 point line) that everyday Joe's like me see as obvious. I understand to have a style of play. But, he absolutely REFUSES to do those three things I've mentioned. That's not sticking to your style. That's being down right stubborn and hard headed. And when he's asked about it, he acts all pissed off like how dare you question me. As good as he is, I don't think any Tar Heel fan can question his stubbornness has cost us many games...just that one thing. Him being stubborn.
The Roy does not call time outs thing is really such and old argument against Roy as a coach. It is a coaching decision type of thing, do you intentionally foul with 5 sec left on the clock or wait till under 3 sec? Ask multiple coaches and you will get multiple answers, the saving his TOs is a similar thing. Roy elects to do this because he wants his team to learn to play thru adversity rather than nail them out of it, it is a teaching moment that he learned from Dean. I don't recall folks calling for Dean to step down because he saved his TOs.
Now maybe I would like him to call more TOs to maybe slow down an opponents run but considering that 2 hall of fame coaches and one being a Mt Rushmore coach saw value in not calling them I think I can not place much value of the argument they are or were wrong in their method.
Now as for defending the high pick & roll and defending the 3pt line, wondering what you suggest? Point being, if you are going to be critical of something then I would think you would be able to first identify what is being done wrong and then present potential solutions? So I am wondering what your solutions would be?
First- I never called for him to step down. Second- Your second paragraph about timeouts is my argument against holding them. I understand his and, I guess, your logic about working through adversity. But, every freaking time??? No. I think many fans feel as I do. He's a great coach, but this isn't the Dean Smith era of basketball. He needs to let some philosophies of 30-40 years ago die. Just because it worked then, doesn't mean it's going to work now. Of course, Roy's a great coach. Does that mean he's perfect? No. These "knocks" on Roy have always been there. Don't act like this is the first you've heard of them. As far as the high pick and roll? One is obvious. The bigs do a terrible job of hedging. Then they get lost in the middle. Do I go with the guard now or rotate back to my man? Our bigs are indecisive and slow. Another thing, sometimes our guards try to go underneath the pick. If they do that with the big already lost in space, that's an open shot 100% of the time. Guarding the 3 point line- there's not just one easy solution. Why we go to a 2-3 zone occasionally in an attempt to disrupt 3 point shooting is beyond me though. That's probably the easiest zone to get good 3 point looks against. Although, the 1-3-1 can give up many open jumpers from the corners. Plus, we're always slow rotating on zone defenses. One thing we can do is stay with your man. We don't need to drop our guards down to double bigs. Something that would help this too is teaching our bigs to play defense without freaking fouling so much, but also teach them to "side saddle" their guys in order to make that entry pass a little more difficult. We seem to always play behind our men in the post. Of course, teams are going to score. Of course, there is no fool proof easy answer. You asked some of my suggestions, here is the Cliff Notes version. Oh, and by the way, it's obvious other coaches see our trouble guarding the high pick and the 3 point line. It's probably not just me.
LOL, first, I actually was not trying to be a arse, I just get tired of some of the same ole same ole, especially the TOs thing. Has the game changed since Dean coached, in some ways yes it has but no matter if it was in Dean's era or today, teams still got on runs against us, that has not changed at all nor do I suspect it ever will.
Now if you have read much of my opinions then you would know, I am critical of Roy all the time, because there are things that drive me buts but I as well do not want any other coach because what I love from what he does so out weighs the lesser. So to use the Roy ain't perfect argument to me is not the best choice of people to offer it to? LOL
Now, I asked what you would do to help the high screen issue we do have, asked because I hate to see folks complain and yet not truly be able to realize what the real problem is or offer real solutions. First, yeah it is to a degree athlete related in that Meeks is not the most fluid of athletes (moving his feet). But that is only part of the problem, first our chasers at times don't fight thru the high screens that they can get thru (can't get thru all of them) but when you do have to go under a screen you have to hustle hard to get back on the ball handler. WE don't always do that and that is problem #1, you do not want meeks trying to guard a ball handling guard for long.
Second problem, it is meeks related due to indecision and slowish feet. On the high screen Meeks has to do one of 2 things, he either needs to show, meaning fake switching to the ball handler and stay with the screen setting big or he has to set a hard hedge and solid divert the ball handler giving our chasser ample time to get back to the ball. If it is a show then you want meeks beside the screener, not behind him or a step ahead, you want the ball handler to have to cover more distance before a turn so our chaser can get back to him. Note, if you show and are a step ahed of the screener y90u give a great pick & rol op to the screener with the pass from the unguarded ball handler. If it is a hard hedge then meeks simply has to divert the ball handler, not become a chaser himself or worse force our chaser to switch to the big and meeks switch to the ball handing guard. And the absolute worst thing you can do is go half way in between the show and a hard hedge because you will allow the ball handler to get to the turn every time before our chaser can get back on him, in fact many times it results in meeks pealing back down and if effect screening off our chaser. Roy prefers a guy like meeks to show rather than hard hedge, problem is our chaser is usually running thru clutter and a slight rub can cost him a step giving the ball handler a easy turn to the driving lane with options. Many coaches prefer the hard hedge and recover or trap with our big and the chaser, countered if recognized by ball reversal by the ball handler with either the pass or just reverse the dribble. IN this notice, I shared both the problem and what to do to over come it. Notice, we tend to switch more when Hicks is the only big man in and we go small because Hicks has better feet but when we are small we have really good ball hawks at the wing and 4 that have length and quickness. Tony is doing much better but has a knack for setting a decent hard hedge, struggled some early season in recovering back from having to carry the hedge further out, his feet are decent but not overly quick.
This one is already to long for most folks, will discuss guarding the trey in a follow up post.
Guarding the trey, several concerns I have. First, I think we help to much off shooters, IMO we just have to stay closer to and many times we are a step or 2 to far from a shooter when teams look to spread us out. Some times you are just better off letting the guy drive for a potential 2 than give so much room to a wide open jump shooter.
I believe most college guards on scholarship, D-1 thru D-3 can hit close to 70% of the treys they take in a open gym unguarded in practice. Throw in a crowd and a token defender and those numbers will drop slightly but not by much. But when you force a kid to work his tail off for s spot that he can get a clean look off, that is when those trey shooting numbers begin to decline and get a hand in his face they drop hard so that even a great jump shooter will have to work to hit 40%. Also, distance is a problem, a kid with a toe behind the 3pt line with a clean look off of a pass kicked back out to him is going to hit a higher % than he will if he is 2 steps behind the arch in the deep corner from a pass that forces him to turn and square as opposed the key area when he can shoot directly off the catch and already be squared up.
If you notice, many of dukes treys came off of break ops, they look to first go to the rim on a break but if that is not there they look to kick it out to a shooter that is able to walk in to the shot already squared. That is a hard shot to defend because your instinct is to protect the paint and rim first, you kind of have to take those on the chin, hopefully limit their break ops so your defense can be set. The more controllable aspect is in the half court.
IN the half court, I would like to see us start our pressure up closer to the mid court stripe, I like closer token pressure well before the mid court line but tighten it up at the mid court. Clutter the view and make the ball handler worry about ball pressure and not be so able to survey the court or get easy in to sets. I think this is extra important when we have our smallest back court combination in (joel & nate together). EXTREMELY important that Joel and Nate stay in front of the ball handler when they are in together because most of the treys that burn us come from ball handler penetration kicking back out to spot up catch & shooters. If the ball handler gets past our defending guard he draws help and we ball chase, there is always a open shooter when that happens and it happens a lot!
Second thing that has to happen is we can not get caught ball watching and lose guys looking to spot up, we do that to a maddening extent, Justin bless his heart does love to watch the ball and forget about his man but they all do that, not just Justin. Ball, you, man may be the oldest saying in the coaching hand book and maybe the most ignored by players. But it simply means you put yourself between the ball and your man and you do not lose site of either the ball or your man, that is what awareness is and what every coach screams about pretty much constantly. It is almost as likely as the sun coming up tomorrow that our guys are going to turn their head to either the ball or their man and if we get caught doing so wham bam we are in a scrambler and as sure as day turns in to night there is a spotted up catch and shoot op waiting to happen. And ya wonder why so many coaches love zones over man? LOL
Finally, IMO we can be pretty darn defensively predictable, I like what Dean was so great at, having his teams change their defensive looks so often. That forced defensive to not only have to prepare for multiple looks but they had to recognize what look we were hitting them with and then be able to go in to a counter for it under pressure. Not easy to do and dean was a master of teaching kids how to disguise the defensive looks as well as starting out in one look that changes over to another, example man changing to a 2-3, see a trap op and immediately switch back to trapping man.
We do very little zone under Roy and we basically get forced in to it rather than go to it as a planned look pre-game. Another thing I think would help us control the treys hit against us would be more full court trapping and I am surprised Roy does not do more of this with the depth we have with his teams. Full court trapping tends to speed the opponents up, gets them out of their comfort zone, that kid that is mentally sped up finds it a lot harder to settle in to a comfortable shooting stroke as well as all the full court trapping makes you work harder and tires your legs and a tired leg three point shooter is no where as accurate as one that has had more ability to rest.
I believe most college guards on scholarship, D-1 thru D-3 can hit close to 70% of the treys they take in a open gym unguarded in practice. Throw in a crowd and a token defender and those numbers will drop slightly but not by much. But when you force a kid to work his tail off for s spot that he can get a clean look off, that is when those trey shooting numbers begin to decline and get a hand in his face they drop hard so that even a great jump shooter will have to work to hit 40%. Also, distance is a problem, a kid with a toe behind the 3pt line with a clean look off of a pass kicked back out to him is going to hit a higher % than he will if he is 2 steps behind the arch in the deep corner from a pass that forces him to turn and square as opposed the key area when he can shoot directly off the catch and already be squared up.
If you notice, many of dukes treys came off of break ops, they look to first go to the rim on a break but if that is not there they look to kick it out to a shooter that is able to walk in to the shot already squared. That is a hard shot to defend because your instinct is to protect the paint and rim first, you kind of have to take those on the chin, hopefully limit their break ops so your defense can be set. The more controllable aspect is in the half court.
IN the half court, I would like to see us start our pressure up closer to the mid court stripe, I like closer token pressure well before the mid court line but tighten it up at the mid court. Clutter the view and make the ball handler worry about ball pressure and not be so able to survey the court or get easy in to sets. I think this is extra important when we have our smallest back court combination in (joel & nate together). EXTREMELY important that Joel and Nate stay in front of the ball handler when they are in together because most of the treys that burn us come from ball handler penetration kicking back out to spot up catch & shooters. If the ball handler gets past our defending guard he draws help and we ball chase, there is always a open shooter when that happens and it happens a lot!
Second thing that has to happen is we can not get caught ball watching and lose guys looking to spot up, we do that to a maddening extent, Justin bless his heart does love to watch the ball and forget about his man but they all do that, not just Justin. Ball, you, man may be the oldest saying in the coaching hand book and maybe the most ignored by players. But it simply means you put yourself between the ball and your man and you do not lose site of either the ball or your man, that is what awareness is and what every coach screams about pretty much constantly. It is almost as likely as the sun coming up tomorrow that our guys are going to turn their head to either the ball or their man and if we get caught doing so wham bam we are in a scrambler and as sure as day turns in to night there is a spotted up catch and shoot op waiting to happen. And ya wonder why so many coaches love zones over man? LOL
Finally, IMO we can be pretty darn defensively predictable, I like what Dean was so great at, having his teams change their defensive looks so often. That forced defensive to not only have to prepare for multiple looks but they had to recognize what look we were hitting them with and then be able to go in to a counter for it under pressure. Not easy to do and dean was a master of teaching kids how to disguise the defensive looks as well as starting out in one look that changes over to another, example man changing to a 2-3, see a trap op and immediately switch back to trapping man.
We do very little zone under Roy and we basically get forced in to it rather than go to it as a planned look pre-game. Another thing I think would help us control the treys hit against us would be more full court trapping and I am surprised Roy does not do more of this with the depth we have with his teams. Full court trapping tends to speed the opponents up, gets them out of their comfort zone, that kid that is mentally sped up finds it a lot harder to settle in to a comfortable shooting stroke as well as all the full court trapping makes you work harder and tires your legs and a tired leg three point shooter is no where as accurate as one that has had more ability to rest.
Ask the U if they wish they had had one left in their game. Yes Roy saves them and uses them at end of game situations. Big deal.
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