I'm a lifelong UNC fan born in NC but I also got my bachelor's from Arizona. I would have to disagree with that knock on him. My issue with Miller is that he doesnt seem to coach and run a system that fits with the personel that he has. He has tons of athletes every year but prefers to play a halfcourt offense as opposed to a transition first offense. He also struggles with gameplans as you saw last night he made zero adjustments against the zone. He's a great recruiter but an average in game coach
Sean Miller
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I'm a lifelong UNC fan born in NC but I also got my bachelor's from Arizona. I would have to disagree with that knock on him. My issue with Miller is that he doesnt seem to coach and run a system that fits with the personel that he has. He has tons of athletes every year but prefers to play a halfcourt offense as opposed to a transition first offense. He also struggles with gameplans as you saw last night he made zero adjustments against the zone. He's a great recruiter but an average in game coach
I'm just going off what I read on Arizona's scout board. Thanks for the insight!
Arizona fans can be a little self absorbed. I lived in Tucson for 15 years and when theres no pro sports teams everyone lives and breathes Arizona basketball and tend to have a false sense of where they stand as a program. Theyre an elite program, easily the best in the country west of Kansas, but theyre not the same level of elite as UNC, Dook, UK and KU. I put them in that Nova, Michigan State level tier. Some people in Tucson think Sean Miller is god but the more knowledgable fans can see that he has tons of flaws. He's also benefitted alot by being the Team USA U18 coach similar to how K has in the last few years with elite recruits. With Deandre Ayton coming in and Kobi Simmons, Alkins and maybe even Trier back I think he may really be on the hotseat if he misses another Final 4.
The naysayers were so much smarter than us.
Except there was no proof. And that's the problem. You can't fault people for not wanting to take your or anyone else's hearsay for fact.
Not sure why people can't understand that.
Hey cory, maybe today is a good day for a re-think of that Miller as our coach position? LOL
You're one of the posters I have much respect for. But you know that some on this board have been crying wolf almost every time we missed on a recruit or another school found success during our dry spell. Surely you remember how often every kid who passed on us was accused of being shady not too long ago? It was like the boy who cried wolf. Without anything being done, you get tired of the shenanigans. True or not.
Hindsight aside, Calling a coach "dirty" or claiming he was "handing recruits a bag of goodies" because they are unusually successful does not constitute as "proof". That's slander. And it's the same type of crap we dealt with when other fanbases tried to sling it at Roy & UNC during our never-ending investigation.
Re your proof: Pretty sure I was never the one who actively defended Sean Miller. Or Bill Self for that matter (who to my knowledge, hasn't been named yet). The main ones who did have been M.I.A. the past day & a half. Guys' been off my "Roy's Replacement" list ever since he couldn't touch a Final Four.
I asked for proof. Now I have it.
I feel that same about you.
But I've said more than once that those guys will flat out ask "How much "insert recruit" will cost me".
It has nothing to do with us(myself, gary) crying wolf.
The game is really that toxic.
Fair enough. And yes, I recall you posting that more than once.
But the bumping spree just seems a bit unnecessary. No need to call out every single poster for not believing you. JMO.
I'm just honestly glad this is finally coming out. For me, the question was never "what are they doing?", but "when will we see justice for what's happening?". To me, it felt that the NCAA wouldn't touch it because talented schools = $$$, even if that meant being complicit with all of this (and there's no way they couldn't have known about it).It was always going to take an unbiased 3rd party to actually bring this to light. I guess the FBI/DOJ will be that party.
Believe it or not Rose, I really enjoy discussing with you, we disagree a lot but I like the arguments you use and you are willing to at least consider a counter opinion and I appreciate that, without having to become personally insulting which is something I really hate.
Much of what is passed on via these message boards is like a boy scout camp fire, it is still smoking it can still catch fire, hard to have smoke without fire. Rumors are passed on at events, it is word of mouth, you do not get a paper trail or recordings unless you are a law enforcement agent. Those passing on information do not want their names attached, I have been in that situation, you just do not ever attach a name to what you have been told or you will never be talked to again.
To say for example, I heard K was dirty and he paid Bagley $200,000 to commit to duke is not slander, it is actually not against the law to pass around a rumor, that is free speech. Now if I were a newspaper reporter and printed that K gave Bagley $200,000 to commit to duke then I have made a public declarative statement in public media and must have absolute proof in order to not have a potential case for slander to worry about. Outside of making false statements to law enforcement or to any court system, as a private citizen I can say pretty much anything I want. So passing on what someone hears at some event is saying there is smoke and there is fire where ya find smoke. Gary for example, I have at times as well said this is the smoke guys, believe there is fire there if you want but there is smoke in the air. But also please take notice of how often I use the IMO (in my opinion) in my posts, even when it actually is not my opinion but something I know to be fact, I do not want to present fact if I do not have a clear publishable proof and very rarely is that ever possible to have, IMO.
Now let me defend you just a bit Rose, I think we all realize that there seems to be a need for some folks that do not have any real connections, other than the internet, to try to portray themselves as unquestionable experts that get unquestionable information passed to them, so bow down to me as a expert and accept anything I say as absolute. I think many of us actively look for that very thing, oh, great info but you claimed an insider just passed it on to you and yet I read it yesterday in some other site, I see that all the time, makes me laugh. So who has real inside info and who just reads others, fills in a few blanks, and passes it in as their own deep dark inside stuff? :O
Point is your questioning some one's claim of inside info is understandable but it is as well confrontational to someone that is actually sharing something that is inside the loop. Gary seems at times to be the center of much of this back and forth, I like gary, don't always agree with him, do think he takes things to far at times but do believe he at times does get some inside stuff and I as well think at times he gleans stuff off other web sites that isn't the classic insider path. To me I really don't care, I take in all information no matter how solid I think it to be and decide for myself what I think is solid and what I don't. Kinda like does this puzzle piece fit the whole or not? LOL
All fair points Dave, although I do need to point out that when I glean stuff from other reports I try to preface it with "I saw elsewhere" or some such disclaimer. As for rumors, as you said, they fly thru the proverbial grapevine, but sometimes they are indeed much more than that and we know it.
For example, the stuff I've posted on here about Arizona I KNEW to be true, even though it hadn't "officially" been revealed. When I mention something as being "well known" within the coaching and/or AAU community, well um, there's a reason for that. And so now, lo and behold --- one (tiny) part of their operation just got exposed. BTW: another thing I know is that the AZ coach who got busted ain't nowhere near the dirtiest guy on that staff.
You are also correct that sometimes we hear rumors and hope they're true --- or NOT true. In the wake of this scandal I posted yesterday that I had heard rumors in recent months that Chuck Person may have been up to no good. What really concerned me was the main source was an Auburn source (ruh-roh) but I never picked up any real details (the rumors amounted to there being concern among some fellow staff members that Chuck was a loose cannon), so yeah, I HOPED the rumors were NOT true. Welp, we all know how that worked out
.Bottom line, Dave, is that I put the most credence in info from people I know who have been (or are still) in the trenches, so to speak. Rarely are they very far off. I try to pass that on to the board when appropriate. Some folks appreciate that, but for whatever convoluted reason, some don't. Oh well. Contrary to the rhetoric of a loud few here, I don't expect anyone to "bow down" --- that's just silly --- but I would hope most reasonable folks here would have enough sense to realize I ain't blowing smoke --- just reporting what I can. If they don't like the content?... well then, as you like to say, that's what the "ignore" feature is for
.
What is the eye roll for? What I said is true. His teams are consistently good, and he is mostly judged negatively for a few postseason losses. Those narratives tend to turn around over time.
Should I have known his coaching staff was dirty? How would the average fan know that?
Miller has been officially eliminated from all consideration as a future UNC coach.
I'll just chime in with a couple of thoughts.
1. I think it's more than fair to say Miller has consistently good teams mostly because he has a wealth (obscene wealth) of talent. He has done relatively little with that --- and I'm not talking about a Natty, that's not a fair measuring stick because as you say it can turn around --- he has still relatively underachieved even below that.
2. The next operative question becomes how he's getting all that talent to the desert?... and while the average fan may not know he's dirty, you are past being an average fan just from the fact you have enough interest to peruse boards like this --- and in all honesty, there has been ample credible information posted here to more than peel the cover off of Sean. Jes sayin'.
He's definitely cheating...BUT...the women at UA certainly help with recruiting. They are phenomenal.
All fair points Dave, although I do need to point out that when I glean stuff from other reports I try to preface it with "I saw elsewhere" or some such disclaimer. As for rumors, as you said, they fly thru the proverbial grapevine, but sometimes they are indeed much more than that and we know it.
For example, the stuff I've posted on here about Arizona I KNEW to be true, even though it hadn't "officially" been revealed. When I mention something as being "well known" within the coaching and/or AAU community, well um, there's a reason for that. And so now, lo and behold --- one (tiny) part of their operation just got exposed. BTW: another thing I know is that the AZ coach who got busted ain't nowhere near the dirtiest guy on that staff.
You are also correct that sometimes we hear rumors and hope they're true --- or NOT true. In the wake of this scandal I posted yesterday that I had heard rumors in recent months that Chuck Person may have been up to no good. What really concerned me was the main source was an Auburn source (ruh-roh) but I never picked up any real details (the rumors amounted to there being concern among some fellow staff members that Chuck was a loose cannon), so yeah, I HOPED the rumors were NOT true. Welp, we all know how that worked out
Bottom line, Dave, is that I put the most credence in info from people I know who have been (or are still) in the trenches, so to speak. Rarely are they very far off. I try to pass that on to the board when appropriate. Some folks appreciate that, but for whatever convoluted reason, some don't. Oh well. Contrary to the rhetoric of a loud few here, I don't expect anyone to "bow down" --- that's just silly --- but I would hope most reasonable folks here would have enough sense to realize I ain't blowing smoke --- just reporting what I can. If they don't like the content?... well then, as you like to say, that's what the "ignore" feature is for
Pretty much why I like ya and we rarely have strong disagreement. But man sometimes, I just want to strangle ya! LOL Just let some stuff go man, ya have to realize when folks are baiting you in to a nasty situation and be smart enough not to play their game. You do not always need the last word and rarely does it ever end up the last word, you reply hard and the other guys goes back harder and before ya know it it is beyond ugly.
That is when it melts down to name calling and my man, name calling worked thru middle school but we adults should be able to discuss without it. This coming from someone that well understands being drawn in to BS by those just looking to be jerks, I am trying to just toss off the nonsense stuff because I do not enjoy those personal attacks and I don't think many do, thou there are some that do seem to live for such moments.
You mean it is no longer Miller time, the banquet of desert beers? LOL
I have only 2 "connections", and rarely get anything from them.
That said, look at recruiting. If there is a sudden upswing in talent going to places that historically have not pulled that type talent red flags should go up for even a casual internet fan.
AZ made no sense, even with their decent past history. They were hitting way above their average. SC made no sense to me. Simmons to LSU still doesn't make sense even looking at someone in his camp getting a job there (or am I mixing his case up with someone else?). Who was the other outlier getting goofy attention? Missouri? C'mon! Missouri??!?!
When things don't really make sense, there us 90+% of the time good reason, and $$$$$ is usually the reason.
That said, look at recruiting. If there is a sudden upswing in talent going to places that historically have not pulled that type talent red flags should go up for even a casual internet fan.
AZ made no sense, even with their decent past history. They were hitting way above their average. SC made no sense to me. Simmons to LSU still doesn't make sense even looking at someone in his camp getting a job there (or am I mixing his case up with someone else?). Who was the other outlier getting goofy attention? Missouri? C'mon! Missouri??!?!
When things don't really make sense, there us 90+% of the time good reason, and $$$$$ is usually the reason.
Thing about Arizona is theyve been poaching top guys from the east coast, that makes no sense. Often beating out Unc and other top programs on the east coast. That was an immediate red flag.
Regarding point 1, I don't dispute that his teams are good because of recruiting. That's sort of the nature of college sports though, recruiting is incredibly important. So until I had evidence that the recruiting was dirty, I think my statements were totally correct. He did a very good job coaching, mostly because he's able to bring in great players.
Regarding point 2, okay maybe I'm not an "average fan". However, for the most part I've not found much on this site regarding recruiting shenanigans convincing up until now. Most of the information was in the form of "Sean Miller is dirty". An anonymous poster saying that doesn't convince, as pretty much every top coach has loads of people calling them dirty (Roy certainly does).
If someone gave specifics (Sean Miller funneled $100k to player X through an agent, as told to me by connection Y) I would take them more seriously. You have to consider context: you may be the most connected guy in the world, but I have no way of knowing that. So I take most inside info with a grain of salt unless that person has a long history of accurate, specific info. Going forward I'll take the claims you and others have made more seriously now that I've seen how right you were, but there was no reason to strongly believe the dirty claims a priori.
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding!
And when I mentioned SC was getting undue attention from recruits and wondered "why", I was basically shushed and told that Frank Martin was above that type of thing. And maybe he is, but SC as a player for top recruits really never made sense to me. Will see how this shakes out.
Try closing your "average" mouth and listen sometimes, you might learn a thing or three.
C'mon bro. Gaucho is a good guy.
I'm just having a little fun gary.
I don't like how he gave me the business in many recruiting threads when I knew exactly what I was talking about, and he finally admits he didn't.
I'll give it a rest now.
Yep. John Wooden used to do it back in the day and even he had "help".
#SamGilbert
Hey, I just want the good guys and gals here to get along.I'm just having a little fun gary.
I don't like how he gave me the business in many recruiting threads when I knew exactly what I was talking about, and he finally admits he didn't.
I'll give it a rest now.
chill, kid...you've proved you're a d-bag already today.
I've got a solidly above average mouth!
All those who were saying Miller was dirty were right, I've got no problem admitting that.
All those who were saying Miller was dirty were right, I've got no problem admitting that.
I've got a solidly above average mouth!
All those who were saying Miller was dirty were right, I've got no problem admitting that.
Technically possible he didn't know anything, but definitely unlikely. At best he might've been willfully ignorant, which isn't better.
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