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Social Security tax

[So why do we need to pay for the mistakes of those before us. You are talking about forcing people to fend for themselves longer. That's 3 years closer to death. Not counting moving the cap out higher.
How much money each year is creamed off the top of SS money by the government? Again, your scenario is forcing those who are already carrying their own weight plus more to bear the brunt of this issue. I guess the upper middle class and the rich are the guilty ones here.

QUOTE="ticket2ride04, post: 949536, member: 1416"]Extend the cap out to $200k

Push back the retirement age to 65 and 68. Grandfather in people above 55 to stay with the current retirement age.

No one is getting screwed there. Just making some
Tough choices.

Your later point is why SS needs to be saved. People in this country don’t save properly for retirement. Letting a huge chunk fend for themselves would wreck havoc.[/QUOTE]
 
Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
54 year olds would beg to differ in that scenario, I'm sure.
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Don’t be obtuse. A couple years is nothing. SS was set up when people didn’t live nearly as long. People are working later and later anyway. Someone will always have to make a sacrifice during change. This is a pretty minor one

Grayhead said:
[So why do we need to pay for the mistakes of those before us. You are talking about forcing people to fend for themselves longer. That's 3 years closer to death. Not counting moving the cap out higher.
How much money each year is creamed off the top of SS money by the government? Again, your scenario is forcing those who are already carrying their own weight plus more to bear the brunt of this issue. I guess the upper middle class and the rich are the guilty ones here.

QUOTE="ticket2ride04, post: 949536, member: 1416"]Extend the cap out to $200k

Push back the retirement age to 65 and 68. Grandfather in people above 55 to stay with the current retirement age.

No one is getting screwed there. Just making some
Tough choices.

Your later point is why SS needs to be saved. People in this country don’t save properly for retirement. Letting a huge chunk fend for themselves would wreck havoc.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

I’m just proposing ideas to keep SS solvent. The government has borrowed money from it and we aren’t producing enough babies. If we want it around, we need to make a change.

Simply cutting off a huge block of people isn’t practical. We live in a collective society and these are some of the choices we have to deal with.
 
Grayhead said:
Define collective society for me. You have stated that several times.
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Our tax dollars fund things like roads, schools, disability care, Medicare, etc. Not everyone uses all the services equally, but the theory is a high tide raises all boats.
 
ticket2ride04 said:
Our tax dollars fund things like roads, schools, disability care, Medicare, etc. Not everyone uses all the services equally, but the theory is a high tide raises all boats.
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IMO things like roads and schools are different from social security and healthcare.

I'm not capable of building/maintaining interstate highways or a high school on my own. But I can fairly easily enough purchase my own healthcare and save/invest for my own retirement.
 
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Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
IMO things like roads and schools are different from social security and healthcare.

I'm not capable of building/maintaining interstate highways or a high school on my own. But I can fairly easily enough purchase my own healthcare and save/invest for my own retirement.
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But many people aren’t capable of investing, caring for themselves, etc. Many people in this country have little use for well-maintained public roads. Some like public education, others not.

But we live in a collective society. I mean this in a nice way, but try not to have such a myopic view on these matters and understand that process behind it. It makes life’s much easier.
 
But why should some people bare the brunt of caring for others who refuse to look after their future? SS is not a retirement fund. I know quiet a few people who sought disability when it wasn't warranted and gained it simply because they didn't want to work. There have been an overwhelming amount of cases of people seeking disability.

As for your boat apology, some of the boats refuse to take care of themselves while other boats are forced to repair them.

In a nut shell, I think SS is a joke. I never think about what mine will look like when I'm eligible. I have my doubts I'll be alive to every collect what I paid in.
 
Grayhead said:
But why should some people bare the brunt of caring for others who refuse to look after their future? SS is not a retirement fund. I know quiet a few people who sought disability when it wasn't warranted and gained it simply because they didn't want to work. There have been an overwhelming amount of cases of people seeking disability.

As for your boat apology, some of the boats refuse to take care of themselves while other boats are forced to repair them.

In a nut shell, I think SS is a joke. I never think about what mine will look like when I'm eligible. I have my doubts I'll be alive to every collect what I paid in.
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Part of what makes America the greatest country in the history of the world is that we pick up those who can't do so for themselves. Lots of people are against SS or disability until some tragic accident befalls them or a family member. There are thousands who invest and save and live life the right way, then the dot com bubble bursts, Enron cheats you, or bad luck happens. We pick each other up. Some pay more. Some pay less.

Go visit a third world country where they lack these social safety nets. Watch mothers take their 4 young children onto the streets nightly to be better beggars. Watch the increased crime rate. Watch the poverty run amok.

We have a good system now that can be tweaked to be made better. Quit feeling owed and start feeling grateful.
 
I am grateful for were I live. I am grateful that with hard work and dedication I live in a country that the sky is the limit. I am also grateful that I can help others who are less fortunate. For example, we just purchased a new set of tires for an elderly man this week. On a fixed income and unable to get them his self. We are always doing things like this. But it is by our choice. We help our church and other churches in our community tremendously each year. We try to take care of our family that is in need.

But we are forced into a system that has major issues with its redistribution of collected money. You bring up family needing help.
My aunts brother had a stroke while living with his girlfriend/ex-wife. She never bothered to take him to the doctor. She never notified anyone that it happened. When my aunt finally discovered he was sick, she collected him and put him in a hospital. He couldn't talk, walk, or take care of himself . Lost half of his body weight. Once he was out of the hospital, she applied for his disability. Even th tough it should have been an open and shut case, they denied him and said he was able to work. He was barely able to put a fork to his mouth. He died 2 weeks later.
My uncle has fought cancer 3 times. Had 2 major surgeries which left him with 60% loss of mobility and unable to even close his fist. He fought for 4 years to get his disability. After receiving it, they later came back and took it from him only to force him to pay back a year. He managed to hire a lawyer, fought for an additional year. The lawyer took his back pay, but he got his meager check back. Lost his house and vehicles in the process.
All the while my brother gets military disability with no issue at all. Claims PTSD and has never saw a minute of action. He was in the coast guard. He lost his job do to miserably failing a drug test. But they give it to him anyways. He now resides on ocean drive in myrtle beach, homeless, and a dope addict.

And these are just 3 examples of why I don't like the system. I see so many abusing the system. So I can't help but feel owned.
 
Grayhead said:
I am grateful for were I live. I am grateful that with hard work and dedication I live in a country that the sky is the limit. I am also grateful that I can help others who are less fortunate. For example, we just purchased a new set of tires for an elderly man this week. On a fixed income and unable to get them his self. We are always doing things like this. But it is by our choice. We help our church and other churches in our community tremendously each year. We try to take care of our family that is in need.

But we are forced into a system that has major issues with its redistribution of collected money. You bring up family needing help.
My aunts brother had a stroke while living with his girlfriend/ex-wife. She never bothered to take him to the doctor. She never notified anyone that it happened. When my aunt finally discovered he was sick, she collected him and put him in a hospital. He couldn't talk, walk, or take care of himself . Lost half of his body weight. Once he was out of the hospital, she applied for his disability. Even th tough it should have been an open and shut case, they denied him and said he was able to work. He was barely able to put a fork to his mouth. He died 2 weeks later.
My uncle has fought cancer 3 times. Had 2 major surgeries which left him with 60% loss of mobility and unable to even close his fist. He fought for 4 years to get his disability. After receiving it, they later came back and took it from him only to force him to pay back a year. He managed to hire a lawyer, fought for an additional year. The lawyer took his back pay, but he got his meager check back. Lost his house and vehicles in the process.
All the while my brother gets military disability with no issue at all. Claims PTSD and has never saw a minute of action. He was in the coast guard. He lost his job do to miserably failing a drug test. But they give it to him anyways. He now resides on ocean drive in myrtle beach, homeless, and a dope addict.

And these are just 3 examples of why I don't like the system. I see so many abusing the system. So I can't help but feel owned.
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The system isn’t perfect, not by a mile. But it’s better than having no system.
 
Grayhead said:
Then we should have the option of paying into that system.
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It doesn’t work that way. It’s all or nothing. Let’s say you opt out of SS and Medicare. Shortly after some terrible tragedy befalls you where you lose your investments and ability to work. Society just can’t let you wither away. That can’t happen on a grand scale.

Disability and welfare is such a small piece of the problem. We need to tackle SS reform, defense cuts, and Medicare. Everything else is small potatoes
 
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And the way it's set up now, it enables people to take advantage. How did people ever survive before SS and welfare?

I agree reform needs to happen, but not at the expense of those actually paying in. Have you factored in the percentagee of the population that pays no tax or SS each year? You tell me we cut the handouts, freebies, stronger screening for welfare, drug testing for welfare, time limits for welfare, more monitoring of those who are on questions I disability, and I'll agree to that. Without taking on the abusers, it means nothing to the rest
 
Grayhead said:
And the way it's set up now, it enables people to take advantage. How did people ever survive before SS and welfare?

I agree reform needs to happen, but not at the expense of those actually paying in. Have you factored in the percentagee of the population that pays no tax or SS each year? You tell me we cut the handouts, freebies, stronger screening for welfare, drug testing for welfare, time limits for welfare, more monitoring of those who are on questions I disability, and I'll agree to that. Without taking on the abusers, it means nothing to the rest
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- to your first paragraph, life used to be a lot harder. Look at infant mortality rates, crime, disease, etc.

- handouts keep a sect of society from turning to crime or professional begging. It’s a small price to pay to keep those at bay. Like I said, there are bigger fish to fry.
 
Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
Why not?
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Apart from the humanity aspect, it’s just not good business. In a fairy tale world, everyone works hard and takes care of themselves. In reality, that doesn’t exist. Letting 10-15% of our populace fall on their face would have huge consequences. Crime rates would soar. Professional beggars would line the streets. Disease would spread.

Having a healthy, strong, educated society is vital for US dominance on the global scale.
 
Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
Who knew social security was keeping all of these things at bay!?

I'm not looking forward to my retirement when SS is dried up... having all these come out of the woodwork is gonna suck.
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What do you think happens if a large chunk of people don’t have money or the means to better themselves? There will always be a percentage of people who refuse/can’t work due to injury, disability, laziness, etc. SS/Welfare keeps these people in their ghettos and trailer parks.

Walk the streets of a major city in a 2nd or 3rd world. Crime is rampant. Mothers use children to be better beggars. Disease is more easily spread.
 
So truth be know, we are paying low life's off with my SS I pay in. What a way to address a serious concern. If they refuse to work or take care of themselves, then I am not obligated to handout something just to keep them at bay


QUOTE="ticket2ride04, post: 950535, member: 1416"]What do you think happens if a large chunk of people don’t have money or the means to better themselves? There will always be a percentage of people who refuse/can’t work due to injury, disability, laziness, etc. SS/Welfare keeps these people in their ghettos and trailer parks.

Walk the streets of a major city in a 2nd or 3rd world. Crime is rampant. Mothers use children to be better beggars. Disease is more easily spread.[/QUOTE]
 
ticket2ride04 said:
Apart from the humanity aspect, it’s just not good business. In a fairy tale world, everyone works hard and takes care of themselves. In reality, that doesn’t exist. Letting 10-15% of our populace fall on their face would have huge consequences. Crime rates would soar. Professional beggars would line the streets. Disease would spread.

Having a healthy, strong, educated society is vital for US dominance on the global scale.
Click to expand...

What is a professional beggar?
 
Grayhead said:
So truth be know, we are paying low life's off with my SS I pay in. What a way to address a serious concern. If they refuse to work or take care of themselves, then I am not obligated to handout something just to keep them at bay


QUOTE="ticket2ride04, post: 950535, member: 1416"]What do you think happens if a large chunk of people don’t have money or the means to better themselves? There will always be a percentage of people who refuse/can’t work due to injury, disability, laziness, etc. SS/Welfare keeps these people in their ghettos and trailer parks.

Walk the streets of a major city in a 2nd or 3rd world. Crime is rampant. Mothers use children to be better beggars. Disease is more easily spread.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
In a rational/fair world, this wouldn’t happen. But it does. A small percentage of your paycheck goes to keeping the riff raff at bay.
 
ticket2ride04 said:
What do you think happens if a large chunk of people don’t have money or the means to better themselves?
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We're talking about old people here with social security. I assume if they don't have money, and haven't made good enough relationships with their family/friends over the course of their life to have them lend a helping hand... then they die off? Sort of a "not my problem" situation.

I'm certainly not worried about an old lady mafia breaking out and mugging me in a dark alley if we don't give them SS.
 
I find it hilarious that people have a problem with their taxes helping poor people, when far more of your taxes go to subsidizing large corporations.

Ticket is spot on. Nobody wants to pay for the social security net, but you damn sure don't want to live in a country that doesn't have one.
 
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uncboy10 said:
I find it hilarious that people have a problem with their taxes helping poor people, when far more of your taxes go to subsidizing large corporations.

Ticket is spot on. Nobody wants to pay for the social security net, but you damn sure don't want to live in a country that doesn't have one.
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most-of-budget-goes-toward-defense-social-security-and-major-health-programs-1

Now tell me how from your ‘backasswards’ brain are more of our tax dollars ‘subsidizing large corporation’.
 
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cletusnow said:
most-of-budget-goes-toward-defense-social-security-and-major-health-programs-1

Now tell me how from your ‘backasswards’ brain are more of our tax dollars ‘subsidizing large corporation’.
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Okay "Cletus." How much of that defense budget goes to bloated contracts that line the pockets of private defense companies? Probably close to half. That eats up most of the 9% that goes towards the social safety net right there.

The tax burden on the working class is substantially increased by cutting taxes to massive corporations and the wealthiest owners. Most recipients of federal assistance have jobs. Which means we are subsidizing the companies who hire them, so that they don't have to pay them a living wage.

We spend billions of dollars preserving the environment because many of those same corporations are allowed to offload the cleanup costs to the tax payers.

None of this shows up as "subsidies for big corporations" in the budget. It take a little more than a pie graph to give a detailed assessment of the budget.
 
uncboy10 said:
Okay "Cletus." How much of that defense budget goes to bloated contracts that line the pockets of private defense companies? Probably close to half. That eats up most of the 9% that goes towards the social safety net right there.

The tax burden on the working class is substantially increased by cutting taxes to massive corporations and the wealthiest owners. Most recipients of federal assistance have jobs. Which means we are subsidizing the companies who hire them, so that they don't have to pay them a living wage.

We spend billions of dollars preserving the environment because many of those same corporations are allowed to offload the cleanup costs to the tax payers.

None of this shows up as "subsidies for big corporations" in the budget. It take a little more than a pie graph to give a detailed assessment of the budget.
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None of the worlds largest corporations are defense contractors, save for maybe General Electric. Of the top five only Walmart and Toyota do business in the US. The only subsidies that go toward those two are welfare, food stamps, and tax breaks for domestic production. So yes I am right there with you if you are saying we should end welfare and food stamps.
 
cletusnow said:
None of the worlds largest corporations are defense contractors, save for maybe General Electric. Of the top five only Walmart and Toyota do business in the US. The only subsidies that go toward those two are welfare, food stamps, and tax breaks for domestic production. So yes I am right there with you if you are saying we should end welfare and food stamps.
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I never said those defense contractors were the "world's largest corporations"
 
uncboy10 said:
I find it hilarious that people have a problem with their taxes helping poor people, when far more of your taxes go to subsidizing large corporations.
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Agreed, but it's equally hilarious that people have a problem with taxes subsidizing large corporations but have no problem with taxes helping out people who choose to remain "poor" to get the benefits.
 
Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
Agreed, but it's equally hilarious that people have a problem with taxes subsidizing large corporations but have no problem with taxes helping out people who choose to remain "poor" to get the benefits.
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Mooches suck. I'm in complete agreement there. But the conservative argument usually is that we should cut the programs. Which makes no sense when 90+% of the recipients aren't scamming the system.

If you want to tighten the screws so that the only people receiving benefits are the people who actually need them, then I'm in total agreement. The entire point is to help people get back on their feet, or to help people who aren't capable of work/providing for their family. And we can help more people do that if we use resources more efficiently and don't let people abuse the system.
 
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uncboy10 said:
Mooches suck. I'm in complete agreement there. But the conservative argument usually is that we should cut the programs. Which makes no sense when 90+% of the recipients aren't scamming the system.

If you want to tighten the screws so that the only people receiving benefits are the people who actually need them, then I'm in total agreement. The entire point is to help people get back on their feet, or to help people who aren't capable of work/providing for their family. And we can help more people do that if we use resources more efficiently and don't let people abuse the system.
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I agree with this for the most part. The problem is see, is programs created to help those in need are prone to abuse by the moochers of this country. And it occurs in places other than government run programs. Our church helps a lot of people. But it also attracts those who are simply looking for handouts. We have to screen heavily for real verses fake needs. It's also more than 10% that ask who are simply moochers. They bring their kids up as leverage as well. It's not easy, when you know their intent, but it is necessary. We only have a certain amount we can give, so we monitor what is give. There is no reason the government can't do the same.
The problem is politics one side buys votes with their stance, and the other buys votes because they oppose it. Our Congress can do better, but they don't. Both dems and pubs have controlled in the past 20 years, and it only seems to get worse.
 
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