The Conspiracy Theory: Is it naive to believe it exists, or more naive to NOT believe it occurs?

[UNCGridironFanatic]

I'll state at the outset for full disclosure, yes, I posted a thread back post-GT entitled "The Anti-UNC officiating bias". That said, I think it's more a matter of the individual officials personal biases than a full-blown league run conspiracy; it's just that it seems more "OK" for those biases to come into effect when North Carolina is the subject of those biases.

However, last Sat. night, I don't think that was an anti-UNC circumstance. Nor a pro-Clemson one. I happen to believe that the ACC's payoff for having a team in the CFP simply was too lucrative for the league to deal with possibly losing...which it would've had UNC forced OT and then won in OT. I do believe the fix was in, and that it had been long-decided that if UNC (or whomever would've been playing the #1 team in the country that is an ACC member) put itself late in the game in a position to somehow win, that the officials were under direction to ensure it didn't happen, as much as they might could do so. Hence, we get a call that is deemed "non-reviewable" on a largely static play (not in motion at the beginning of the play). Clemson was the better team, but the better team doesn't always win, particularly when the other team creates a 1 or 2 minute "game", which is precisely what UNC had forced. We all know how it turned out.

So, my question for the board is this....given the MONEY involved, is it more naïve to believe in behind-the-scenes pressure being placed on officials to create certain results, or is it in fact more naïve to believe that those kinds of things simply can't happen???? Again, given the HUGE MONEY involved, I just think it's ludricous for anyone to believe that the sports leagues in certain circumstances don't attempt to influence the outcomes of games where they have mechanisms in place to do so. I mean, you have cases of proven manipulation (the NBA ref betting games that he reffed), players getting caught shaving points for $$, etc. You constantly hear/read people sneering at the "black helicopter crowd", etc.....and yes, people can get caught up in it to the point that everything is a conspiracy (see mooU's "fanbase" as the prime example of this whacko behavior). But I think it's AT LEAST as equally naïve to think this kind of stuff doesn't go on when an entity stands to lose MILLIONS IN TV/PARTICIPANT $$$.

One last thing: if it's all left to chance, why do you NEVER see some type of a phantom call, one that prevents one of the establishment power teams from having a chance to win in the last few moments of a tightly contested contest, go against an Alabama or a ND in football, or a Dook/Kentucky basketball team???? You just don't see that....

 

[gunslingerdick]

Either way, there's not shit you or I can do about it except pop a few blood vessels.

 

[SeaHawk98]

It occurs, I am convinced of that. A few years back when Duke beat UNC at home, there was a 100 yards of missed calls in favor of Duke. The ACC wanted Duke in the championship game that year so FSU could easily win the ACC and the national title.

The ACC wanted Clemson to win, no doubt. They couldn't risk UNC winning and being excluded from the playoffs. However, during the game there was no calls that indicated that until the onsides kick. It was fairly obvious the ref had decided to throw the flag before the kick even happened. Clemson was the better team and should have won, but one will never know what would happened if the refs called that play correctly.

Also, I have been preaching that Swofford is trying not to look so pro UNC, he is actually anti ACC.
1. Three horrible calls this year against UNC, but every time the ACC refused to say it was wrong.
2. A few years back Rashad was suspended for bumping a DUke receiver presnap. That guy flopped and Rashad was flagged. He should have gotten a 15 yard penalty, but suspended? That was a joke. Just like week Williams was targeted by an ugly hit by a DE for State. No suspension whatsoever.

 

[strummingram]

It's absolutely possible, maybe even likely, and it could even be an absolute fact that it was a directed manipulation. I cannot even imagine how many hundreds of millions are at stake here. It's a shame that a once-amateur, school spirit sport has been so thoroughly commercialized... but, with that commercialization comes some of the other perks we take for granted. 50 years ago, you had to go to the games, or you MIGHT get a radio broadcast and on a rare occasion, you got to see it on TV. Nowadays, you can watch every UNC game on TV. That's one of the perks.

UNC hasn't earned the perpetual credibility and draw of national interest in Football... yet. In basketball, it's a done deal. There is favoritism. It's human nature. It's not always as malicious as it seems, but when you're the fan and player of the underdog team, you have a different attitude. If UNC strings together a few seasons like this season? Then you can count on a bit more of certain calls going your way.

Did the refs blow that play just to make sure the ACC got in the CFB playoffs? I don't doubt that at all. It got the conference in the playoff and you even got controversy and more discussion because of the play itself and the potential outcome. Think of it as a big win within a little loss. We got our school's name and logo on the national stage at the most crucial time in the college football season. There are steps to climb in this "business." Take one step at a time. If your school's taking care of business correctly, they will be back again and be even better than they were this year.

 

[soap - new and improved]

True story.... A pal of mine brought up the game last night. I was surprised he even watched as he cares only marginally about sports in general and is neither a UNC nor a Clemson fan.. He asked me about that final call and I told him all evidence showed it to be the wrong call and that I was surprised that TWO officials staring straight down that line could make such an error.

He looked at me and said "I am not a conspiracy kind of guy, but that looked absolutely rigged to me and to my son as well. And it is funny how that penalty ended all possibilities. If Clemson recovered it didn't matter, it would be refused. If UNC recovered it nullified the play and could not be reviewed. It looked terribly suspicious to both of us."

Then he said "If you follow the money that is where the answer will be."

So, what does that mean? Pretty much nothing other than yet two more impartial observers with no skin in the game thought it looked very suspicious.

He wanted to know who could benefit from that call financially, and I explained to him how badly the ACC wanted Clemson in the Playoff with all the money and exposure that would bring.

Years ago a mobster type guy involved heavily in sports gambling allegedly made a statement along these lines when asked about sporting events....

"There is far too much money at stake to leave the outcomes in the hands of amateurs (meaning the players and coaches)."

Food for thought.

 

[Tom79]

Spoke to an attorney friend, who is not a sports fan at all, and he made much the same statement, only his version said "vegas and the committee" made the decision, did you think it would go any other way? And his eyes got real big...
Curious how Kirk and Reese said over and over on air, "nobody is off sides", Kirk said "#30 is the closest to the line" and he was behind the line when the ball was kicked:...

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Anybody who thinks situations like these aren't possibly "influenced" is being naive.

If UNC were a lock for the playoff, I can't imagine them influencing the outcome to get Clemson to win (even though Clemson would probably draw more fans, and arguably have a better chance at winning the national championship). However it was very possible, probably likely, that if UNC won that game (especially in OT - aka a very narrow victory) - the ACC would have been shut out of the playoffs. That's millions of dollars down the tubes, not to mention lack of exposure for the conference on the biggest stage.

If I were the ACC brass, you damn well better believe I'd have my influence in there to make sure my conference got in the playoff and got the big payday coming their way. It's called job security, and securing your annual bonus. It's a shame that it has come to that, but in today's world it's all about the $$$$. I do wish they would get called out for it on ESPN and the like though. All the media outlets continue to pretend it doesn't happen, but I think it'd be interesting if they broke down the financial implications of calls like that, and point out why it's fairly clear it was an influenced call.

 

[Jimmy the C]

Hey Hark....you are all over it......My Florida Gator friend said it after the game an he did not care who won......follow the money....hey man,it's business.

 

[The tigerdoc]

This has benefited UNC basketball for 50 years at least. Why such a big issue now?

 

[bleeduncblue]

This has benefited UNC basketball for 50 years at least. Why such a big issue now?

You're right Tiger ....hence the reason I'm not bent out of shape about it. I know what we are.

 

[SeaHawk98]

Well, it probably did benefit UNC basketball back in the day, but no longer. They are all about Duke now. Not much can be done, too much $ involved.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

This has benefited UNC basketball for 50 years at least. Why such a big issue now?

One, b/c it's wrong in either sport. But I would submit to you that UNC's historical dominance of Clemson basketball is a function of a much wider gap in performance in general than the two schools have in football. Look, UNC wins 35% of all the football games the 2 teams play, while Clemson wins 12% of the hoops games. Our football history isn't Top 15-20 (where Clemson resides most years), but we're a solid Top 30-40 program most years; Clemson wallows near the very bottom of college hoops the vast majority of years, while UNC most years is a legit Top 5-10 team.

Two, football being the game of fewer momentum swings, the crucial call that is "influenced" at a strategic time can have a much greater impact on the outcome of a football game. Basketball outcomes are much more fluid and the game lends itself to legitimate upsets more than football....each individual player has much more impact on the game than an individual football player (10 on the court vs. 22 on the field at any one time). Hence, w/ a football game that isn't going the way the money trail likes, said $$ trail is very pushy about their mechanisms (read: officials) being on-board w/ the gameplan. EX/ Saturday night, the momentum had clearly swung to UNC, outscoring CU 14-3 in the previous 7 minutes....the game had basically come down to one play, and then 1 min, 8 sec. if that play was executed properly. ACC league officials' assholes had puckered to the point that they couldn't have driven a 16 penny nail up their asses w/ a sledgehammer. The fix was then put in.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

This has benefited UNC basketball for 50 years at least. Why such a big issue now?

One, b/c it's wrong in either sport. But I would submit to you that UNC's historical dominance of Clemson basketball is a function of a much wider gap in performance in general than the two schools have in football. Look, UNC wins 35% of all the football games the 2 teams play, while Clemson wins 12% of the hoops games. Our football history isn't Top 15-20 (where Clemson resides most years), but we're a solid Top 30-40 program most years; Clemson wallows near the very bottom of college hoops the vast majority of years, while UNC most years is a legit Top 5-10 team.

Two, football being the game of fewer momentum swings, the crucial call that is "influenced" at a strategic time can have a much greater impact on the outcome of a football game. Basketball outcomes are much more fluid and the game lends itself to legitimate upsets more than football....each individual player has much more impact on the game than an individual football player (10 on the court vs. 22 on the field at any one time). Hence, w/ a football game that isn't going the way the money trail likes, said $$ trail is very pushy about their mechanisms (read: officials) being on-board w/ the gameplan. EX/ Saturday night, the momentum had clearly swung to UNC, outscoring CU 14-3 in the previous 7 minutes....the game had basically come down to one play, and then 1 min, 8 sec. if that play was executed properly. ACC league officials' assholes had puckered to the point that they couldn't have driven a 16 penny nail up their asses w/ a sledgehammer. The fix was then put in.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

You're right Tiger ....hence the reason I'm not bent out of shape about it. I know what we are.

Oh geez....the basketball-only crowd is out en force, celebrating the football team coming up short. I mean, hell, we wouldn't want any attention deflected from the OOC hoops schedule while the footballers played potentially in the CFP or a New Years Six bowl, had we won!

 

[bleeduncblue]

Oh geez....the basketball-only crowd is out en force, celebrating the football team coming up short. I mean, hell, we wouldn't want any attention deflected from the OOC hoops schedule while the footballers played potentially in the CFP or a New Years Six bowl, had we won!

"Basketball only" ?? Try again pal. I'm probably the only person on this board who attended 3 road games (Pitt, VT and Moo) along with 4 home games. In fact, I typically attend more football than bball games nowadays.

UNC bball benefited for MANY years when it comes to officiating and we have no reason to expect to be shown favor in football, that's all I was saying. Besides, I highly doubt the NCAA wanted the NCAA-sanctioned team to rock the Playoff boat.

 

[topdecktiger]

If you are basing your theory strictly on money, then no, because there isn't big money involved. The actual amount of money on the line was $6 million dollars.

 

[strummingram]

If you are basing your theory strictly on money, then no, because there isn't big money involved. The actual amount of money on the line was $6 million dollars.

6 million is maybe a tenth of what was at stake.

 

[franklin street]

there are way to many subjective calls in sports that can change the outcome of a game.
i promise you in any game there's going to be one official who dislikes your school.
it doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe everyone hates us.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

there are way to many subjective calls in sports that can change the outcome of a game.
i promise you in any game there's going to be one official who dislikes your school.
it doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe everyone hates us.

Bingo! The problem here is that "giving the business" to Carolina, for some reason, is accepted and never challenged.

 

[Buncombeheel]

Fuel to the fire that there is/was a conspiracy: I went back and watched the game again. With each infraction called through out the entire game, the refs named the guilty player by number, except, you guessed it........the guilty player on the off side call. Didn't name him because they couldn't.

 

[Tigertown_a_Rick]

There was too much money and prestige at stake for Clemson and the ACC to let UNC have any chance at a victory....As soon as that play happened, a buddy turned to me, and said, "The refs wanted to make sure Clemson won this game, and got into the playoff."...To which I said, "Well, they got what they wanted."

Think about it: Clemson QB Deshawn Watson will be in NY as one of the three finalist for the Heisman, and a win by UNC would have took some of the luster off Watson, Clemson and the ACC...

Yeah, there was a conspiracy, and any rational non-objective fan could see it with the way the game ended....

ACC officials aren't bad, but they do appear to be dishonest and crooked, but who knows, maybe they were instructed to limit Carolina's chances in that game!

Nowadays, it's Dook in Basketball and Clemson in football, and the ACC is going to protect those brands, so the ACC as a whole gets more prestige and money!

 

[Roady]

Lordy....I am glad that I purchased shares of Reynolds Aluminum. They have recently spiked.

When I started wearing my hat years ago, I realized that this was an investment opportunity.

There was a study....


"Unfortunately for college football’s legions of conspiracy theorists (including this writer), the refereeing study does not support the notion that officials secretly help their conference’s strongest teams so the conference can reap the prestige and jackpots offered by bowl games and national titles. “We expected to find that but didn’t,” says Rhett Brymer, the Miami University strategic management professor who led the study. The SEC, which won seven of the eight NCAA championships during the period under review, was found to have officials essentially devoid of bias. ACC refs, on the other hand, were flagged for favoring home teams, betting-line underdogs, and long-time conference members such as Duke and North Carolina."

 

[gunslingerdick]

This conspiracy talk is something from the UK message board. That's not to say that the fix wasn't on - I don't know for sure. Maybe it was. But I can't abide our fan base saying things like this:

...maybe everyone hates us.

Even if that were true (which there is evidence all over the place that would suggest it isn't), it's more respectable to simply face the challenges and win anyway. IMO, the "poor us, everyone is out to get us" shit is the worst look a fan base can take on and the #1 reason why people have such disdain for the UK basketball fan base. Please, I beg all of you, don't be like that. Because as my first post in this thread stated, even if it were true, there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. And the whining about it makes us look like the very thing we detest in other fan bases - namely UK and moo. Please,...no.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Nowadays, it's Dook in Basketball and Clemson in football, and the ACC is going to protect those brands, so the ACC as a whole gets more prestige and money!

Why would the powers that be want to prop up those two programs? There's more money in UNC basketball than in duke basketball. There's more money in FSU football than in Clemson football.

 

[JimmyinVA]

Fuel to the fire that there is/was a conspiracy: I went back and watched the game again. With each infraction called through out the entire game, the refs named the guilty player by number, except, you guessed it........the guilty player on the off side call. Didn't name him because they couldn't.

good point.

 

[Roady]

A good review of the call, the rules, etc...

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article48340640.html

 

[topdecktiger]

6 million is maybe a tenth of what was at stake.

No there isn't. You don't know how the money is allocated. Here are the payouts from the CFP:

1-$300,000 for each school with a passing APR.
2-$50 million base payout for each P5 conference ($18 million for G5 conferences)
3-$6 million for each team selected for a semifinal game. $4 for each team selected for a non-playoff game.
4-Participating teams receive $2 million for expenses.
http://www.collegefootballplayoff.com/revenue-distribution

That's it. That's all the money. The contract bowls (Rose, Sugar, Orange) are paid out based on separate agreements between each bowl and affiliated conferences. The only revenue up for grabs was the $6 million from participating in the semifinal.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

Lordy....I am glad that I purchased shares of Reynolds Aluminum. They have recently spiked.

When I started wearing my hat years ago, I realized that this was an investment opportunity.

There was a study....


"Unfortunately for college football’s legions of conspiracy theorists (including this writer), the refereeing study does not support the notion that officials secretly help their conference’s strongest teams so the conference can reap the prestige and jackpots offered by bowl games and national titles. “We expected to find that but didn’t,” says Rhett Brymer, the Miami University strategic management professor who led the study. The SEC, which won seven of the eight NCAA championships during the period under review, was found to have officials essentially devoid of bias. ACC refs, on the other hand, were flagged for favoring home teams, betting-line underdogs, and long-time conference members such as Duke and North Carolina."

It's fine to disagree w/ the premise. That's why I asked. I simply don't think it's nearly AS naïve to believe that the various leagues will push their officials to make crucial calls WHEN THE GAME'S OUTCOME LEGITIMATELY IS IN DANGER OF NOT RESULTING IN THE OUTCOME MOST FAVORED BY THE LEAGUE ITSELF, as it is naive to believe that these things don't happen, given the $$ involved (legit and betting $$) and what a big business college football has become.

And I think the powers that be pick their spots pretty well, too. Otherwise, if too rampant or if happening too often, there would be no debate. They only push the favoritism button if they need to so as to get their desired result. I think the UNC/CU game was the "perfect storm" of an example....the game was called pretty well the whole game, but after the INT at the end of the first 2nd half UNC drive, CU was in pretty decent control. Then the 4th quarter happened. Eventually, it got down to the matter of the execution of an onsides kick. The ACC (the league) had a team that if it wins, they're in (CU). OTOH, UNC wasn't gonna get picked for the CFP, save a "59-0" type win, which obviously wasn't in the cards at that point. So, "in the interest of the ACC", the officials knew what they needed to do IF that need arose. And they did.

 

[franklin street]

i don't see a conspiracy in this game because carolina had to score a touchdown plus 2 point conversion just to send it to overtime. too many things had go our way.
what i see is one official who did not want carolina to win.
i also see a league that after being publicly ridiculed didn't have the stones to take responsibility.

clemson has outplayed everyone this year and to have their season slightly questioned over 1 bs call isn't fair to them either.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

Given the THEFT of opportunity that occured to the Heels on Sat. night, frankly, I don't give flying damn about what is fair to Clemson.

Your post reads like The Rat claiming Henderthug was the "real victim". Sorry, no offense, but that's the truth.

 

[franklin street]

Given the THEFT of opportunity that occured to the Heels on Sat. night, frankly, I don't give flying damn about what is fair to Clemson.

Your post reads like The Rat claiming Henderthug was the "real victim". Sorry, no offense, but that's the truth.

why would i take offense to being compared to the rodent?
i'm not as upset over this as most people because we had a long way to go and we were going to get screwed out of the playoff anyway.
if we had needed a field goal to tie or win and that would have put us in the playoff i might have gone postal.

 

[UNCGridironFanatic]

Understand that we were gonna get screwed out of the CFP win or lose, which only exacerbates my anger at the situation. WHY IS IT JUST OK, IN GENERAL & WITH NO RESTRAINT, FOR THE LEAGUE TO ALLOW FOR THE SCREWING OF CAROLINA?

1- GT measurement
2- Switzer non-fair catch call vs. Wake
3- mooU headhunting a helplessly exposed MW (Mike Rose, to be specific)
4- phantom offside call in ACCCG vs. Clemson.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

What's alarming is the ACC's unwillingness to come out and say hey our officials royally ****ed that up bottom line. It doesn't change the outcome for either side but would at least be a step towards credibility for the ACC to admit what the world witnessed on Saturday night. Our league is the laughing stock. If you think the SEC wouldn't throw their officials under the bus for some bonehead shit like that then you are crazy. aCC is pathetic.

 

[UNC_Blue]

This has benefited UNC basketball for 50 years at least. Why such a big issue now?

Good grief, we haven't gotten the "dook calls" since Dean retired. We routinely get screwed vs dook, and more often than not teams are allowed to play much more physically against UNC than we can get away with. We got prison raped at Louisville, to give them their "miracle comeback", after we had taken control of that game.

We USED to get the calls, in BB, that you reference. It wasn't right, but that era has been gone for awhile, the Rat owns the ACC.

 

[Tigertown_a_Rick]

Why would the powers that be want to prop up those two programs? There's more money in UNC basketball than in duke basketball. There's more money in FSU football than in Clemson football.

Because those two programs are at the top at the moment, and those Brands matter a whole lot to the prestige of the ACC, and it's not about how much money UNC or FSU has generated, but rather it's about who has the strongest program at the moment, and both Dook in Basketball and Clemson in Football are the two strongest ACC programs in their respective sports at the moment....

How can any rational fan who watched that game believe that it was only a mistake that was made on that final onsides kick?

Yeah, it's not a good look from a fan base who rightly complained about what looked to be an "INTENTIONAL" call by the official at the end , but I'm not one to stick my head in the sand, and say well that's the way the ball bounces, and I think there's a lot of Carolina fans that feel the same way as I do?

Would Carolina have tied the game to force an overtime?....Who knows, but we did have 3 Timeouts left, and we would of had the ball near midfield with a little over a minute left....I just hate that we didn't get the deserved opportunity with such a perfectly executed onsides kick!

I hate cheaters.....PERIOD, and I feel we were cheated out of an opportunity to at least make it interesting in the final minute of the game!

How does ANY official miss that call if he wasn't intentionally trying to do so?

 

[gunslingerdick]

...but rather it's about who has the strongest program at the moment, and both Dook in Basketball and Clemson in Football are the two strongest ACC programs in their respective sports at the moment....

Solution - have the strongest program and it won't happen.

 

[heelmanwilm]

EVERY SINGLE FAN BASE claims conspiracy by the refs to screw them over. EVERY.....SINGLE....ONE. And every single one can point to a handful of blown calls as "evidence". And they're all WRONG, including ours. There were EASILY a dz calls that could have gone against us that didnt and noone objective would've batted an eye. What about the clemson targeting foul in the first quarter? We benefited from some huge calls. And btw, Clemson was called for TWICE AS MANY PENALTIES FOR TWICE THE YARDS!!!

Oh and EVERY SINGLE ONE except ours claims the conspiracy is in our favor in bball!

 

[soap - new and improved]

Repeated false starts and repeated personal fouls will do that wilm.

The game was called fairly well until that last terribly blown call, one that seems inexplicable under "normal" scenarios. He blew that call by a country mile comparatively.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Repeated false starts and repeated personal fouls will do that wilm.

The game was called fairly well until that last terribly blown call, one that seems inexplicable under "normal" scenarios. He blew that call by a country mile comparatively.

I agree. And that just lends support to my point. If the refs were gonna throw the game they had a dz opoortunities to do so and keep the game close. Instead they wait til the last min of the game and they have to make such a blatant bad call? Whenever faced with two premises always go with the easiest to believe.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I agree. And that just lends support to my point. If the refs were gonna throw the game they had a dz opoortunities to do so and keep the game close. Instead they wait til the last min of the game and they have to make such a blatant bad call? Whenever faced with two premises always go with the easiest to believe.

So why is the ACC backing the bad call then?