The Pope vs. Trump

[TarHeelNation11]

**Let me start off this thread by clarifying that I am not Catholic, nor is anyone in my very WASP family. Also let me make clear that illegal immigration is an issue I feel very strongly about as some of y'all know**

I'm curious, what are your opinions on the role the pope should play in politics? Do you think a pope should grandstand and strongly suggest certain countries enact or don't enact certain laws, procedures, etc., lest they be deemed un-Christian?

For those of you who are Catholic, does the pope speak for you? In other words, are you beholden to what the pope says because you view him as the supreme authority of the Catholic Church? I'm simply trying to understand how you view it because I can certainly tell you some pope in Eye-tal-yuh doesn't speak for me or my religious or political beliefs.

I have a real problem with the pope calling the GOP (specifically Trump's) idea of building a wall along the border as "not Christian." The pope has no clue about the damage illegal immigration has done / is doing to this country. It goes far, far beyond the tear-jerker human interest stories of ultra-poor Latin Americans who seek a better life in America. As y'all know, illegal immigration has had major effect on everything from public education to crime to political strife. IMO, the pope calling the build-a-wall proposal "not Christian" is analogous to when Radar posters label a contrarian-viewpoint poster as "not a true fan." It's a cheap ploy to win favor for your viewpoint and stir up the masses of followers.

Do you agree with Trump on this when he basically says the pope doesn't know what he's talking about? Curious to get y'all's take. And yes, I know it's strange that I'm the one starting a political thread. Do not adjust your sets.

 

[Louigi]

This pope is a socialist liberal. The country he grew up in is that way, so no surprise.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I was born/raised Catholic. I guess if asked on a form to check a box for religion (are they even allowed to ask that question on a form nowadays?), I'd check "Catholic", but I don't consider myself a Catholic at this point. I have what I'd consider a non-traditional view on religion - I've gone into it a little in past threads I believe so won't rehash it here - bottom line is I do believe in some sort of a higher power, but not in the forms of the stories that underlie the main religions today.

I have a good opinion of the Pope in general. I think that he's making a lot of much needed strides for the Catholic Church to grow into the modern times, and not be old and stodgy like they've been in the past. I don't think he should weigh in on issues such as US immigration reform, but I'm not at all surprised that he did. His political beliefs align closer to the Hillary and Bernie camps than the GOP candidates. He probably wanted to exert some influence on the race, so figured he'd chime in to swing some people over to the side he would support. I agree with the Pope on some things, and not on others, but regardless - he absolutely doesn't speak for me.

I think Trump ran the risk of alienating a large group of people by "getting into it" with the Pope. However, I like his response. People have bashed him constantly for his comments and views on Muslims. Many tried to spin that into painting him to making it a religious war - as opposed to the war on terror he intended it to be (and insensitive as it may sound, the stats show what religion has the vast majority of these types of terrorists). Now that he has butted heads with the Pope, who is his religious leader, many will see that it's not a religious fear that drives his opinions on other issues.

 

[tarheel0910]

I'm not a Catholic either, so you can take my opinion of the pope with a grain of salt. I was shocked when I found out about what he said. No religious leader, including all of the leaders of other religions, should get involved in politics. That wasn't the biggest issue I had with it though. For him to come out and question someone's faith is not something a religious leader should do. You are suppose to spread the word of God not call a person out for being what you believe is a bad Christian. No one on this earth is in a position to judge someone's faith. It's ironic that when the pope past judgment on him he did something that is "un-Christian."

 

[Heels in Space]

Although I don't want Trump anywhere within a million miles of the presidency, my estimation of him as an entertainer has skyrocketed. I love that there is no one on earth with whom he won't get into a Twitter fight. Trump having a Twitter beef with the Pope sounds like an Onion article.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

Although I don't want Trump anywhere within a million miles of the presidency, my estimation of him as an entertainer has skyrocketed. I love that there is no one on earth with whom he won't get into a Twitter fight. Trump having a Twitter beef with the Pope sounds like an Onion article.

It's not really just Trump's beef though, is it? (Even though I titled the thread as such.) It really should be the whole GOP and their constituency's beef.

How do Catholics predominantly vote by the way? I'd think they'd skew pretty liberal, but I don't know for sure.

 

[keysersosay#1]

As a Catholic, and someone who has fallen off in my faith in some ways, I was surprised in some ways that the Pope did this, BUT then again NOT surprised.

This is a VERY VERY political pope... far more so than any other in my lifetime.

The Left has LOVED him for his, in their view, non JUDGEMENTAL comments" Who am I to judge" and his seeming Left wing views on lots of things...especially IMMIGRATION, which is really a Democrat voter recruitment and sign up game .


Obammy , who is an atheist IMO, has eaten up his comments and made every bit of political hay he could during the recent visit of the Pope here In the US.

The Pope is wrong to do this and it frankly has backfired. Trump will get MORE votes IMO as a response from voters who believe he stepped over the line.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

...especially IMMIGRATION, which is really a Democrat voter recruitment and sign up game .

This is both true and not true, IMO. Certainly, there are "astute" liberal higher-ups that recognize that the more illegal immigrants that are allowed in and then naturalized, the bigger the Democratic Party's voting pool could/will become. I'm not disputing that.

But there's also plenty of what I call "Bless their heart" liberals who vote completely with their heart/emotions without ever taking the time to consider short- and long-term ramifications and consequences of legislation and policy. These are the folks who want to legalize all immigration because they see a documentary of a Latino family toiling hopelessly in a remote Mexican village and starving to death and their hearts ache. They're the type of liberals who want to give every homeless person on the street a free place to stay, free groceries, a free phone, etc. They're the type of liberals who want to raise the minimum wage to $15/hour so that Johnny Burger Flipper can afford a nice apartment in the ritzy part of town.

While there's nothing wrong with feeling this compassion for fellow human beings, it is extremely naive when it comes to politics. It woefully and completely ignores the cold, hard socioeconomic ramifications that come with such acts. It ignores so, so many things and it's such a naive way to think and -- more devastatingly -- to vote, that all you can say to these folks is "Bless your heart."

These are the types of liberals that GOP candidates just cannot reach. They can't drill into these people's skulls and make them see the bigger picture. All these people see is "we should help everyone we can and not worry about the consequences!"

 

[tarheel0910]

This is both true and not true, IMO. Certainly, there are "astute" liberal higher-ups that recognize that the more illegal immigrants that are allowed in and then naturalized, the bigger the Democratic Party's voting pool could/will become. I'm not disputing that.

But there's also plenty of what I call "Bless their heart" liberals who vote completely with their heart/emotions without ever taking the time to consider short- and long-term ramifications and consequences of legislation and policy. These are the folks who want to legalize all immigration because they see a documentary of a Latino family toiling hopelessly in a remote Mexican village and starving to death and their hearts ache. They're the type of liberals who want to give every homeless person on the street a free place to stay, free groceries, a free phone, etc. They're the type of liberals who want to raise the minimum wage to $15/hour so that Johnny Burger Flipper can afford a nice apartment in the ritzy part of town.

While there's nothing wrong with feeling this compassion for fellow human beings, it is extremely naive when it comes to politics. It woefully and completely ignores the cold, hard socioeconomic ramifications that come with such acts. It ignores so, so many things and it's such a naive way to think and -- more devastatingly -- to vote, that all you can say to these folks is "Bless your heart."

These are the types of liberals that GOP candidates just cannot reach. They can't drill into these people's skulls and make them see the bigger picture. All these people see is "we should help everyone we can and not worry about the consequences!"

You are exactly right. That's why I always hope for low voter turnout. When the turnout is high that means a lot of uniformed voters and voters who just don't care about the issues come out to vote. It really is sad that there are so many people who won't take the time to learn about the issues.

 

[Blue2010]

Although I don't want Trump anywhere within a million miles of the presidency, my estimation of him as an entertainer has skyrocketed. I love that there is no one on earth with whom he won't get into a Twitter fight. Trump having a Twitter beef with the Pope sounds like an Onion article.

+1

Agree on this being more of an Onion article!

That said - I agree with Trump here. Should be absolutely no correlation between building a wall to help ensure the security of this country and any sort of religious belief.

That said -- what is this very large obstacle that goes all the way around the Vatican? I'll just leave this here...

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

This is both true and not true, IMO. Certainly, there are "astute" liberal higher-ups that recognize that the more illegal immigrants that are allowed in and then naturalized, the bigger the Democratic Party's voting pool could/will become. I'm not disputing that.

But there's also plenty of what I call "Bless their heart" liberals who vote completely with their heart/emotions without ever taking the time to consider short- and long-term ramifications and consequences of legislation and policy. These are the folks who want to legalize all immigration because they see a documentary of a Latino family toiling hopelessly in a remote Mexican village and starving to death and their hearts ache. They're the type of liberals who want to give every homeless person on the street a free place to stay, free groceries, a free phone, etc. They're the type of liberals who want to raise the minimum wage to $15/hour so that Johnny Burger Flipper can afford a nice apartment in the ritzy part of town.

While there's nothing wrong with feeling this compassion for fellow human beings, it is extremely naive when it comes to politics. It woefully and completely ignores the cold, hard socioeconomic ramifications that come with such acts. It ignores so, so many things and it's such a naive way to think and -- more devastatingly -- to vote, that all you can say to these folks is "Bless your heart."

These are the types of liberals that GOP candidates just cannot reach. They can't drill into these people's skulls and make them see the bigger picture. All these people see is "we should help everyone we can and not worry about the consequences!"

Great post, THN - I don't think I could have said it better myself. The liberal machine shows people an impoverished immigrant family struggling to get by, and then asks "Does this family deserve some help? Or do they deserve to be treated less than human and banished from the country?" Most people with a heart would lean towards the former, and that is how they do the first half of their equation of getting more voters. However, if they actually laid out the situation how it should be presented, and said "Does this family deserve free handouts, at the expense of other non-immigrant families who are just trying to get by as well, or instead of contributing more money to education, or to fixing the social security problem" Now all of a sudden its a different question, now the voter needs to make a choice as to who deserves that funding the most. Is it the family that is illegally in the country? Is it the family that is legally in the country? Is it all the kids that need an education? Is it all the people that have worked and contributed to social security and are now going to get the shaft when they retire?

The liberal machine then completes the other half of the equation, by going to the immigrant families and says "look how we're trying to help you out here", and then gets their vote as well.

 

[Blue2010]

I will add -- I cannot stand the media in this country. They are so damn agenda-driven it's almost nauseating. Yesterday, CNN had "Trump calls Pope disgraceful" plastered as their headline all day. I didn't even see a hyperlink to the full context of what Trump said.

Anyway...that's just unreal, to me.

 

[tarheel0910]

+1

Agree on this being more of an Onion article!

That said - I agree with Trump here. Should be absolutely no correlation between building a wall to help ensure the security of this country and any sort of religious belief.

That said -- what is this very large obstacle that goes all the way around the Vatican? I'll just leave this here...

Mr. Pope...

 

[Heels Noir]

No religious leader, including all of the leaders of other religions, should get involved in politics.

Politicians, particularly conservative politicians, get involved in religion all the time. Isn't your view a double standard?

 

[tarheel0910]

Politicians, particularly conservative politicians, get involved in religion all the time. Isn't your view a double standard?

I don't think I ever said it was ok for politicians to do that. If I implied that it certainly wasn't intentional. That being said, as a religious leader I would expect the pope to be above all of that. I'm not catholic, so maybe what I expect is different than what catholic people expect. I don't really know. I just can't recall other popes being this political.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I don't think I ever said it was ok for politicians to do that.

That's just Heels Noir putting words in posters' mouths trying to push his liberal agenda, don't pay that any mind.

 

[Raising Heel]

All I really want to know is whether Trump actually tried to put money in the communion plate. The symbolism there is fantastic.

 

[gunslingerdick]

That's just Heels Noir putting words in posters' mouths trying to push his liberal agenda, don't pay that any mind.

That dude pops in every blue moon, makes an ass of himself and then luckily, we don't see him for another couple of weeks. He's an odd poster. Whatevs.

In regards to the Pope, stick with religion and stay out of politics. His tour this past summer was embarrassing. But it's a microcosm of life now. We have dumbed down everything. I mean look at the POTUS and the Pope. Can you imagine what real statesmen from yesteryear would think of these two bozos? Good lord. And it only gets worse. Obama was a step down, and next we'll have Trump and in 50 years we'll have Dwayne Elizondo Mt. Dew Herbert Camacho as Prez. And that's what the office will be called. It won't be President of The United States of America. It will just be Prez, you know, because it's hipper and won't offend people. And the Pope? By then, I'd be surprised if the world is allowed to have a Pope.

 

[Heels Noir]

That's just Heels Noir putting words in posters' mouths trying to push his liberal agenda, don't pay that any mind.

Shut up, Buttinski. If the Pope said Obama was "not Christian" you would piss all over yourself.

 

[strummingram]

I think, according to the Catholics I know (and know pretty well), they are the "original Christians!" I dunno if that makes them any more qualified, valid or whatever. They have really fancy churches, however. I have always felt very humbled in them. You get a reverent vibe, for sure. The Catholics I know are hardcore liberal pinko commie socialist-minded folks from the Northeast USA. No shock there. It's interesting insight to me. I always thought Catholics were like the ones portrayed in movies like Heaven Help Us... only not as funny.


Skip to 1 minute in for the good part.

Turns out there's a thing called Vatican II, that erased all of that. It just took a while to set in. I had no idea. I was raised Protestant and the Church of the Brethren. Very cool, laid back and pacifist... like the Jesus I know.

I think this Pope has become much more of a public figure than in times past because we have so much more exposure to EVERY public figure now. I guess the Pope "tweets", too.

I think politicians court religious leaders as much as in reverse, and for the exact same reason- power. Religious leaders are just like politicians, in my view. They need followers- devout, obedient followers- in order for them to have a livelihood and a place in society. The problem is most people in a religion, just like a nation/country, think theirs is the "best" or the only ones doing it right, or whatever else lessens their insecurity. Religions don't teach you to get along with other religions, just like nationalism doesn't encourage you to accept other nationalities as your equal. Only God teaches that! To me, Pope Francis is a Pope who is trying to gray the lines of the divisions we've created for ourselves. "Building a wall", out of context, is pretty much an example of division, or separation. I think the Pope, ultimately, wants us all to "get ourselves back to The Garden", to quote Joni Mitchell. We ALL want that in our souls. But, it's hard to resist what we've learned to think and do in these shells. Getting back to the Garden means removing our divisions... all divisions. It's going to be a while.

 

[-COUNTRY-CLUB-JOE-]

That Trump somehow managed to bait the pope into a public squabble is hilarious. I mean of all things to question Trump's Christianity over he chooses immigration. Serious question: does the Bible actually cover wall building?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Shut up, Buttinski. If the Pope said Obama was "not Christian" you would piss all over yourself.

The pope would never say that, its way too much of a controversial topic. Obama has been attempting to prove he's Christian for awhile now in response to several charges to the contrary. The pope knew he could call out Trump and have the American media eat it up. If he called out Obama's faith, the media would have been in an uproar.

 

[UNC71-00]

The pope wears a funny hat.

Just sayin

 

[TarHeelNation11]

The pope wears a funny hat.

Just sayin

 

[gteeitup]

good thread

 

[gunslingerdick]

good thread

3 star at best.

 

[bleeduncblue]

I cannot wait to watch Trump vs Hildabeast, head to head in the one debate that she'll allow. Are you allowed to scalp tickets to a Presidential debate? If so, I'd like some of that action!

 

[jcolucci]

I'm Catholic and over the past several years have dug really deep into my faith and religion. A lot of reading, study, attending retreats, etc. I'm very good friends with many of the priests in Houston as well as the Cardinal from our Archdiocese. I've gone through periods where I've attended Mass daily at 7am and stopped by the Cathedral to say a few prayers on my way home.

There is a huge difference between practicing Catholics and casual Catholics. I would say my closest friends in the Church are ultra-conservative. There is A LOT of Ted Cruz support in this circle of friends.

The Pope, while widely popular among casual Catholics, has some pretty powerful critics throughout the Church.

Not going to get in the middle of the wall thing...
but just saying...don't go thinking we're all a bunch of NE-style liberals.

 

[Heels Noir]

I cannot wait to watch Trump vs Hildabeast, head to head in the one debate

Likewise.

 

[Nuk'EM Heels]

That Trump somehow managed to bait the pope into a public squabble is hilarious. I mean of all things to question Trump's Christianity over he chooses immigration. Serious question: does the Bible actually cover wall building?

Yes - excellent example in Nehemiah.

 

[prlyles]

I think, according to the Catholics I know (and know pretty well), they are the "original Christians!" I dunno if that makes them any more qualified, valid or whatever.

I think most people would consider the Eastern Orthodox Church as being the "original Christian" church rather than today's Roman Catholic Church.

 

[strummingram]

I think most people would consider the Eastern Orthodox Church as being the "original Christian" church rather than today's Roman Catholic Church.

Maybe so. I think "most people" is a risky reference. I know a great many local Baptists who literally believe Catholics worship the Devil, or that the Devil makes them worship Mary. Organized religion= never a dull moment. I think human beings, in general, are finding they can understand and know God without these religions anymore. Religions are afraid of losing that power over people. Makes sense.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

Maybe so. I think "most people" is a risky reference. I know a great many local Baptists who literally believe Catholics worship the Devil, or that the Devil makes them worship Mary. Organized religion= never a dull moment. I think human beings, in general, are finding they can understand and know God without these religions anymore. Religions are afraid of losing that power over people. Makes sense.

I can tell you that my dad's Baptist family would not be too thrilled if I brought a Catholic girl home.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I can tell you that my dad's Baptist family would not be too thrilled if I brought a Catholic girl home.

That's fairly intense, seeing as they're both under the same Christianity umbrella. I dated a Jewish girl a couple years ago. My Catholic family didn't seem to mind (or if they did, they didn't let me know). However, I could definitely sense the eye-daggers when I spent time with her family, for not being a member of their tribe. I saw the writing on the wall (literally and figuratively) when her mom started posting articles such as "Why you should marry a Jewish Man" on her Facebook page. Needless to say that relationship didn't last much longer than that.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

That's fairly intense, seeing as they're both under the same Christianity umbrella. I dated a Jewish girl a couple years ago. My Catholic family didn't seem to mind (or if they did, they didn't let me know). However, I could definitely sense the eye-daggers when I spent time with her family, for not being a member of their tribe. I saw the writing on the wall (literally and figuratively) when her mom started posting articles such as "Why you should marry a Jewish Man" on her Facebook page. Needless to say that relationship didn't last much longer than that.

Let me be clear....they'd embrace her as one of their own because they love me and would approve of any girl I approve of. But they wouldn't be too crazy of the idea of it at first.

And heaven help me if I decided to convert to Catholicism for her (which I would never do). They'd excommunicate me, pun intended.

Incidentally, my brother has been dating a Catholic girl from New Jersey for about two years now.....she has yet to meet the family but we'll see how that goes lol.

ETA: Also, that's a dick move by your ex's mom!! Yikes lol.

 

[strummingram]

I can tell you that my dad's Baptist family would not be too thrilled if I brought a Catholic girl home.

In fact, every one of them has said to me that "Catholics aren't Christians." That's a special kind of ignorant when you have the same savior and still fear each other. Reminds me of Sunni's and Shia's.

 

[prlyles]

In fact, every one of them has said to me that "Catholics aren't Christians." That's a special kind of ignorant when you have the same savior and still fear each other. Reminds me of Sunni's and Shia's.

I agree, I can see someone saying Catholics, Baptist, (or whatever) are not GOOD Christians but to say they are not Christian is pretty silly.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

I agree, I can see someone saying Catholics, Baptist, (or whatever) are not GOOD Christians but to say they are not Christian is pretty silly.

Yep, I don't agree with that line of thinking either. For most, I don't think it's that Catholics are not Christian, it's more they're not the right kind of Christian.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I don't even know what a Baptist would cite with a Catholic to deem them "not good Christians". I mean, I don't know enough about the differences in denominations, I guess.

I know I'm an Episcopalian. And I know what that stands for. We're big on pomp and circumstance, judging others, using church as a place to show off your kids and their miniature Brooks Brothers suits, drinking, going from standing to sitting to kneeling repeatedly during services, and generally not giving a shit what other denominations think of us. Pretty good denomination, if I do say so myself.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

I don't even know what a Baptist would cite with a Catholic to deem them "not good Christians". I mean, I don't know enough about the differences in denominations, I guess.

I know I'm an Episcopalian. And I know what that stands for. We're big on pomp and circumstance, judging others, using church as a place to show off your kids and their miniature Brooks Brothers suits, drinking, going from standing to sitting to kneeling repeatedly during services, and generally not giving a shit what other denominations think of us. Pretty good denomination, if I do say so myself.

Episcopalian basically is Catholic, seems like to me. I've been to a service at both types of churches and it seems the same.