Theo to start?

[DSouthr]

OK, so we discussed this most of the summer, the question of should Theo start at the 2. I wanted Kenny to start and consistently gave my reasons why. But you know how things go, you can speculate on what you would like to see during the off season but this time of the year you have much more to base things on. In season the cream rises above the milk.

While personally, I feel like Kenny has come light years from last season, his shooting has trailed off the deeper we get in to the season and it as well seems he has become even more hesitant to shoot. Now the kid still works his tail off on the defensive end but the truth is our starting back court has been torched several times this season. Now if he and Joel were defending like we watched early season, it would be one thing but when I see these opposing back courts light us up ( what feels lie nearly every game as of late) I have to wonder if Theo would not at least help that slow down. Theo has much better length and is a good, potentially great defender that IMO is at least a match of Kenny as a defender.

But the real value I see in Theo is how well he facilitates on the offensive end, he can control a game on the offensive end without scoring a point, I think even more than what I saw from him last season. Very solid offensive rebounder, a guy that can seamlessly switch screens on the defensive end and very aware on both ends for things that jump start us. Takes the rebound and drives the length of the court only to dish to a wide open mate for an easy finish, does it regular, can't recall Kenny doing that.

My point is that Theo is a game changer on both ends of the court, kenny has slipped in to being a non-factor on the offensive end for to many games and I would suggest especially so in the bigger games. This may surprise some but I actually think BRob may be able to give us a touch more at the 2 than either Kenny or Nate. He isn't so hesitant to shoot the ball, it may look ugly at times as a ball handler but he has kind of surprised me in his putting it in the floor and finding a mate for a nice assist. He showed me a lot as a defender vs duke, he was a blanket on Kennard and has that wing span that makes it hard to shoot over or drive against. I am beginning to see him more as a 2 than a 3, he gets pushed around a lot more as a 3 (stronger more physical opponents) than he does as a 2. I am beginning to see him as a bit of a mini Theo that maybe shoots a little better.

Hate to say it cause you guys know I love kenny but at this point in the season it becomes what it is, I would at this point have Theo as our starting 2 and Brob being first 2 off the bench. Honestly, I would have 7th as Joel's back up and Nate as 3rd in line at both positions. Just my opinion guys, how you see this?

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Hmmmm. this is too tempting!

I will stick with I agree wholeheartedly! I would increase BRob's minutes, but I would not put him above KW. This might be too big a blow to his budding confidence. KW is the guy this year that needs the nurturing side of Roy that many peeps seem to see as weakness! I love that Roy is so attuned to his guys that he senses when someone would be broken by being benched. KW did hit a few lately and maybe Roy's pep talk will help him find himself again! I bet Roy might not make a change in the lineup, but will increase TP and BRob's minutes at KW's and NB's expense.

 

[Steat]

Doubt Roy would make a line-up change this late in season. I'm still concerned with Theo's injuries. Overplaying him causing more stress on his feet couldd cause more problems and the Heels may lose him for the season.

 

[trestyles]

I think Theo should start. Initially I said keep him on the bench to help with Woods and Nate for ball handling. Also to be a spark. However, I think Kenny can be a spark in lower minutes. Right now he's too afraid to shoot in big games. Luke doesn't even have that issue. So I vote for Theo to start.

 

[soap - new and improved]

I was never on the KW as a starter this year bandwagon. However, I do and will still leave it to Roy to decide that and pull hard for ALL our guys, regardless of when they get into a game, or how long they play.

 

[DSouthr]

I was never on the KW as a starter this year bandwagon. However, I do and will still leave it to Roy to decide that and pull hard for ALL our guys, regardless of when they get into a game, or how long they play.

WE all will have to leave it to Roy because we don't have a meaningful say in the matter. This is nothing more than just discussion to fill in some time between games. I got a lil bored with a lack of topics to discuss & wanted to get some discussion going.

This is not a who is right or wrong situation, it is just we now have more information to drive what we think and sharing how we see things now with the information we have gathered so far this season.

It would not shock me to see Roy make a change, actually I kind of expect just that to happen in the next 2 games and could happen vs the wuff wuffs. And in truth, it really would not be a change in Roy's way of thinking, he considered Theo as the starter before Theo got hurt and Roy does not believe a starter to be able to lose his starting role due to injury. I actually think Theo would have started had he not rolled that ankle, Roy was easing him back in when that happened and may have well been looking to start him that next game had that ankle not got hurt.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

If we had a fully healthy Theo I'd say heck yeah. But bringing him off the bench for limited minutes is best right now I think.

Everybody keeps yelling to shorten the rotation but I want to see BRob and Woods and Tony get more PT, will only help us down the long ACC-NCAA road.

 

[uncblueball]

Why not Seventh in for KW? I think he is starting to figure this thing out and played his best game at dook. Let him play off the ball and I bet he really takes off!

 

[gunslingerdick]

Don't start Theo. He's clearly light years better than Williams but it's too late in the year to make such a big change and we need that spark off the bench. He comes in and can relieve Berry of some of the ball handling and distributing duties.

Next year Theo will start, will play 30 mpg and will be an All-ACC performer. Just hang on everybody.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Why not Seventh in for KW? I think he is starting to figure this thing out and played his best game at dook. Let him play off the ball and I bet he really takes off!

Kenny is still the better option. He's been defending pretty well and it's not like Seventh is a shot maker either. And as someone else already poasted, we're going to need Kenny and we can't afford to kill his confidence. Seventh will be a starter in time but he ain't there yet.

 

[soap - new and improved]

WE all will have to leave it to Roy because we don't have a meaningful say in the matter. This is nothing more than just discussion to fill in some time between games. I got a lil bored with a lack of topics to discuss & wanted to get some discussion going.

This is not a who is right or wrong situation, it is just we now have more information to drive what we think and sharing how we see things now with the information we have gathered so far this season.

It would not shock me to see Roy make a change, actually I kind of expect just that to happen in the next 2 games and could happen vs the wuff wuffs. And in truth, it really would not be a change in Roy's way of thinking, he considered Theo as the starter before Theo got hurt and Roy does not believe a starter to be able to lose his starting role due to injury. I actually think Theo would have started had he not rolled that ankle, Roy was easing him back in when that happened and may have well been looking to start him that next game had that ankle not got hurt.

Dave, wasn't meaning to suggest we shouldn't discuss stuff just because Roy has the final say, or even because some of us trust him in almost every case to be more informed and better prepared to make these decisions than any of us are. And I don't think you took it that way. Just clarifying my last post for the record.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

 

[Spacegrass]

I would ease Theo in some more for at least 2-3 more games. If it hasn't improved for Kenny I think you make the switch. Even though the type of player Theo is with his energy he is very conducive to fitting the 6th man role.

 

[DSouthr]

Dave, wasn't meaning to suggest we shouldn't discuss stuff just because Roy has the final say, or even because some of us trust him in almost every case to be more informed and better prepared to make these decisions than any of us are. And I don't think you took it that way. Just clarifying my last post for the record.

I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

And I didn't soapy, I took no issue at all with what you shared, I was just building upon it rather than looking to argue against your words. I think I just wanted to make sure folks understood that I was not trying to say I know more than Roy (I would NEVER say that) but I think we all have opinions based on what and how we see different things so it was more a discussion point than anything else. Got nothing but respect for you soapy!

 

[trestyles]

Don't start Theo. He's clearly light years better than Williams but it's too late in the year to make such a big change and we need that spark off the bench. He comes in and can relieve Berry of some of the ball handling and distributing duties.

Next year Theo will start, will play 30 mpg and will be an All-ACC performer. Just hang on everybody.

I understand but Kenny has to take and make shots in big games. Every game is going to be big the rest of the season. If KW continues to start then his mins need to be reduced.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I understand but Kenny has to take and make shots in big games. Every game is going to be big the rest of the season. If KW continues to start then his mins need to be reduced.

I don't disagree with that. And I thought it was wrong for Theo to only play 19 minutes in the game against duke. He needs to be playing 25+ minutes. And Kenny's can go down. But I think Theo's ability to jumpstart us when he comes off the bench is crucial.

 

[Archer2]

I like Theo coming off the bench but he needs to play 25 MPG at minimum. I also think Kenny and Nate should have their minutes cut, Nate fairly drastically.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I like Theo coming off the bench but he needs to play 25 MPG at minimum. I also think Kenny and Nate should have their minutes cut, Nate fairly drastically.

I'm definitely for cutting their minutes but I think we're still going to need Nate. I think what you're getting around to is that Seventh should be the guy we bring in to give Berry a rest. And I like the idea of grooming Seventh and I do think he could get a few more minutes here and there. But when tournament time comes, Nate's experience will be valuable. I hate to think how Seventh would react in a big Sweet 16 game with the ball in his hands. Nate, while his shooting has left him, he's been there before. And if you have Pinson on the court at the same time, you have two capable ball handlers to give Berry a blow. Nate still plays passing lanes well and hawks the ball. And he's good for some weird dipsy-doo, how-the-f*ck-did-that-go-in kind of layup every now and then too.

 

[heels05champs]

I was one of the biggest advocates for starting Theo when this was discussed last summer and I feel the same way today. Theo brings so much to the table and the offense is rarely stagnant when he's in because of his vision. Also, Theo has extremely high basketball IQ and that usually doesn't get mentioned. If you watch him closely, he talks more than anyone else and usually is telling guys where to be, who they're supposed to guard, etc. I think Theo needs 25+ mpg combined at the 2 and 3 spot and I would increase BRob's minutes and decrease Nate's and Kenny's minutes.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I was one of the biggest advocates for starting Theo when this was discussed last summer and I feel the same way today. Theo brings so much to the table and the offense is rarely stagnant when he's in because of his vision. Also, Theo has extremely high basketball IQ and that usually doesn't get mentioned. If you watch him closely, he talks more than anyone else and usually is telling guys where to be, who they're supposed to guard, etc. I think Theo needs 25+ mpg combined at the 2 and 3 spot and I would increase BRob's minutes and decrease Nate's and Kenny's minutes.

Let's hold off on the praise for BRob. He's played well in his very limited time. But I still don't think you can go with him at really any point over Kenny. I say let Robinson continue to get what he's been getting and to be ready when called upon. But Kenny still is the better option and deserves the minutes ahead of Robinson. And this late in the year, I'm not for making drastic changes.

But with that said, Coach has to sit down with Kenny and have a talk with him. He needs to know that he has Coach's support. Kenny has crawled up into his shell and just refuses to expand his game offensively or worse - take open shots. We're going to need him at some point to score. He has to be ready.

 

[keysersosay#1]

It is a fine line IMO I am with Archer here Theo does need more minutes and KW and Nate fewer.... BUT each has a role and Roy needs to balance it all out as we head to March

I see Theo playing much more as we get to the meat of season...assuming his health is OK

 

[Heelicious]

No doubt Theo is one of our top 5 players, at least in my opinion. But if Roy starts him, and then Roy wants to give the starters rest at approximately the same time, means you COULD end up with a lineup on the floor that includes Maye, KW, Britt, Bradley possibly all on the floor at the same time. They each do this or that thing pretty well..... but that is a lineup that is just not equipped to score efficiently. We are almost guaranteed to put up a pretty big minus number with them on the court.

We need Pinson off the bench in those scenarios to be the spark plug to keep the ball moving, and to get everyone involved on the offensive end.

 

[coryfly]

I think Theo starting would work best because I think he would complement Berry better. Berry isn't a great creator (and Theo can be) and so having Theo there could make for a pretty dynamic offense with Joel and Justin's ability to score. I think it would benefit both of those guys and benefit our bigs even more. I am admittedly a huge believer in what Theo does to our offense when he is in though. However, I think Theo brings a lot more off the bench than Williams would so I'm not sure how it would impact the team overall. Plus, as others have said, it is pretty late in the year to make changes when we aren't playing poorly.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

The team was hitting its stride and boom injuries to TP and Hicks! What we need now is consistency. For this reason and to make sure we keep KW in the mix; I expect very little change. TP off the bench maybe a little more each game and earlier at times. Small ball in spurts and for match-up purposes. NB and TP in the game together more. Increased minutes for TB and slight decrease for JB (just to freshen up for the tourney!) BRob and KW may see little change or they may see substantial change depending on their play and mental status/confidence. More frequent rotation through our 4 bigs (Meeks, Hicks, TB, and Maye) More 7th, but I'm unsure about the off-the-ball minutes because he is working so hard to lose those shooting guard instincts.

I'm not a believer in shortening the rotation except when peeps prove they can't contribute!

 

[goheels653]

Just want to see Theo play more and be healthy. Team is noticeably better with him out there, whether he starts or not.

 

[DSouthr]

No doubt Theo is one of our top 5 players, at least in my opinion. But if Roy starts him, and then Roy wants to give the starters rest at approximately the same time, means you COULD end up with a lineup on the floor that includes Maye, KW, Britt, Bradley possibly all on the floor at the same time. They each do this or that thing pretty well..... but that is a lineup that is just not equipped to score efficiently. We are almost guaranteed to put up a pretty big minus number with them on the court.

We need Pinson off the bench in those scenarios to be the spark plug to keep the ball moving, and to get everyone involved on the offensive end.

That is a very good argument for keeping Theo coming off then bench, have used it myself actually! Problem is, thou it was never used to retort me, there is a big time hole in that argument. That hole is in the fact that we have played, what 90% or more of our games this season WITHOUT THEO being available to play on the first second or any string? So how can Theo not being there when the second string comes in be any different and yet we are #1 in the ACC and top 10. WE have managed for the majority of our games this season to play without Theo on the second unit so we should know how to handle it by now?

Next, if we can agree that Theo is one of our 5 best players then the only question becomes what 4 other guys should not be replaced by Theo? If Theo is one of our 5 best then clearly we have 1 starter that is not one of our 5 best and I think that clearly has to be kenny.

Now coaches don't often start anything less than their 5 most considered best producers, they don't tend to start their second string and bring their 5 best off the bench, pretty much is always their 5 best, assuming they play different positions of course but their 5 best at each position is pretty much always who starts. Is is usually easier and a heck of a lot smarter to try to build a lead before you go to your bench than it is to have to dig out of a hole when you begin bringing in those from your bench.

Like I said, good argument, I have used it and got away with it, kinda wondered if anyone would hit me with the retort argument I have just given! LOL

 

[_B5]

Theo should definitely start... He is clearly one of our best 5. Theo is our best playmaker and the most unselfish player we have. He brings a level of intensity and seems like the only one who knows how to run a offense against the zone. He is the difference maker on the squad!

 

[uncfan in ky]

Why not Seventh in for KW? I think he is starting to figure this thing out and played his best game at dook. Let him play off the ball and I bet he really takes off!

YES YES YES !!!!! Would love to see Seventh at the 2 spot.

 

[gobblercalls]

The biggest reason that Theo needs to start, IMO, is because it gives us our best opportunity to get out to a fast start/big lead. I think we could see double digit point leads by the second TV time out pretty regularly with him in the starting lineup. His energy starting the game could do away with the bad habit this team has of letting lesser teams stay close.

 

[gary-7]

I would ease Theo in some more for at least 2-3 more games. If it hasn't improved for Kenny I think you make the switch. Even though the type of player Theo is with his energy he is very conducive to fitting the 6th man role.

As some have pointed out, if Roy was considering making that move it is getting later in the season than he may be comfortable with. Funny, I was about to say that IF he's going to make the move we would see it Wednesday after 6 days off. However, with Hicks still being iffy, that could increase the need for Theo to fill in at the 4 in small lineups. So that brings in another consideration for Theo remaining our super-sub. Tough call.

The timing reminds me of two seasons ago when it was in the works to move JB into the starting lineup in place of Tokoto, but Joel got sick on the eve of that home GaTech game (and was still off his feed for a few days after) so by then it was getting so late into the season thus it was scrapped and he just got more minutes off the bench. This may well be the case here.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Before the season started there were 2 main concerns about Theo:

1. Can he shoot reliably?
2. Can he maintain focus (especially on D)?

He certainly looks like he's shooting better. Although I did see him revert to that ugly falling backwards jump shot in the last game - which missed, of course. But mostly his form hasn't caused me concern like it did last season.

That said, he's only shooting 30% from deep and 50% closer in - as compared with 34% and 52% for Kenny. So while my feeling is that Theo would be an offensive upgrade, that isn't showing up in the numbers (yet).

As for focus, I just haven't seen him play enough minutes to be sure he's maintaining focus. It might not be a problem the way Roy is playing him now in short stretches, but could become a problem if he starts playing extended stretches.

One of the good reasons NOT to start an otherwise talented player is to let him watch the game develop and then put him in when the situation fits his abilities. But that's more a strategy you use with a freshman. Theo doesn't need that.

All of which is to say that IF Theo is healthy enough to play starter minutes, he should start. Then we'll get the answers to those questions.

Moreover, I would do it sooner rather than later. Waiting longer risks more disruption.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

As some have pointed out, if Roy was considering making that move it is getting later in the season than he may be comfortable with. Funny, I was about to say that IF he's going to make the move we would see it Wednesday after 6 days off. However, with Hicks still being iffy, that could increase the need for Theo to fill in at the 4 in small lineups. So that brings in another consideration for Theo remaining our super-sub. Tough call.

The timing reminds me of two seasons ago when it was in the works to move JB into the starting lineup in place of Tokoto, but Joel got sick on the eve of that home GaTech game (and was still off his feed for a few days after) so by then it was getting so late into the season thus it was scrapped and he just got more minutes off the bench. This may well be the case here.

Good point, if Isaiah isn't 100%.

OTOH, could play Bradley a lot more and keep Theo at wing. I still don't understand why Tony only played 14 min at Duke.

 

[gary-7]

Good point, if Isaiah isn't 100%.

OTOH, could play Bradley a lot more and keep Theo at wing. I still don't understand why Tony only played 14 min at Duke.

That one's easy: Tony is still very limited as to his defensive range and anticipation in moving his feet in help situations. I understand wanting him to play more but against certain teams that just won't be the case.

He'll get better with another summer of training and growing into his body but a young traditional Big like Tony is just not gonna have success defending a guy like Tatum playing the 4.

 

[Archer2]

If we start Theo, we just have to avoid taking Joel and Theo out at the same time. IMO, one of those two needs to be in the game at all times.

 

[DSouthr]

As some have pointed out, if Roy was considering making that move it is getting later in the season than he may be comfortable with. Funny, I was about to say that IF he's going to make the move we would see it Wednesday after 6 days off. However, with Hicks still being iffy, that could increase the need for Theo to fill in at the 4 in small lineups. So that brings in another consideration for Theo remaining our super-sub. Tough call.

The timing reminds me of two seasons ago when it was in the works to move JB into the starting lineup in place of Tokoto, but Joel got sick on the eve of that home GaTech game (and was still off his feed for a few days after) so by then it was getting so late into the season thus it was scrapped and he just got more minutes off the bench. This may well be the case here.

Darn good point gary, that the question of how long Hicks may be out can cloud this question of Theo starting at the 2. Props !

 

[DSouthr]

Good point, if Isaiah isn't 100%.

OTOH, could play Bradley a lot more and keep Theo at wing. I still don't understand why Tony only played 14 min at Duke.

Yeah but Roy has shown us that he is not sold on Tony and Meeks in together and I would not expect that to change for the rest of this season. gary gave a very good explanation as to why Roy is so hesitant to have them both in together.

Love Roy but this is another one of those situations where I wish we would zone some, Meeks and Tony in together could have foot speed issues masked more in a zone.

 

[DSouthr]

That one's easy: Tony is still very limited as to his defensive range and anticipation in moving his feet in help situations. I understand wanting him to play more but against certain teams that just won't be the case.

He'll get better with another summer of training and growing into his body but a young traditional Big like Tony is just not gonna have success defending a guy like Tatum playing the 4.

This off season will be so key for Tony, as you offer. He has to work on his stamina because he is going to be needed for close to 30mins a game next year. Has to put in a lot of weight room work to add bulk so he is not physically intimidated and can both establish and maintain position.

Tony has to work on a couple go to scoring moves, a jump hook and extending to a mid range jump shot is worth many millions to the kid! Needs to work on those free throws, shoots them with very little arch right now.