THN11- need a primer on EPL
- Thread starter notUNC71-00
- Start date
@TarHeelNation11 - a few questions
How does this whole "player on loan" from another club thing work?
Top 4 from EPL play in some sort of Euro tourney, right? Tell me more about this tournament or gimme some good overview link
If bottom 2 teams in EPL get sent down, who comes up?
How does this whole "player on loan" from another club thing work?
Top 4 from EPL play in some sort of Euro tourney, right? Tell me more about this tournament or gimme some good overview link
If bottom 2 teams in EPL get sent down, who comes up?
Fair warning, this is gonna be TL;DR for anyone else besides 71 who's casually following along. Gonna tackle the loan question first because it doesn't require as much background knowledge like Champions League does.
Okay, loaning players. This is one of the coolest aspect of pro soccer that differentiates it from other American pro sports. I'll start by just using a hypothetical to explain the gist of it. Suppose Everton scouts find a 17-year-old player named Smith who they see as having lots of promise and as a potential starter one day. So they sign Smith to their academy (soccer teams have academies, which is analogous to a farm team in baseball). The coaches really want Smith to develop as a player, but to do that, Smith needs ample playing time, like in actual games, not in practice. So, what to do? The kid has potential but he needs to play and Everton can't just toss him in to the lineup because they're in the Premier League, the best league in the world. How can they get him playing time? This is where loans come in. So they make it known that Smith is available to go on loan for a season. Clubs from lower divisions in England* and some clubs from other countries contact Everton for Smith's services. Hypothetically, Leeds United (a club from the English Championship, which is one level below the Premier League) push the hardest for Smith and Everton agrees to loan Smith to Leeds United for one whole season. Now it varies from deal to deal, but let's say that in this case, Leeds United signs Smith for a 1-year-loan with the agreement that they (Leeds) will pay 100% of Smith's wages during that time. So Everton won't pay Smith a dime for that year BUT they still retain Smith's services for the remainder of his current contract, they just don't pay him for that year.
So Everton's motivation for loaning Smith out is twofold:
1). He will see the field wayyy more with Leeds, a team who plays in a lower league and thus faces inferior teams than in the Premier League, than he would with Everton at his current age and development.
2). Since he's playing on a regular basis, they can evaluate his play and come to a better understanding of if he will really pan out and eventually become a starter or key player for Everton one day. You can't always tell this just from practice. No substitute for the real thing, blah blah.
Now what's Leeds's motivation for taking a player on loan for a year? Keep in mind that once the year is up, Smith automatically goes back to Everton. The only way he wouldn't is if a new loan deal was negotiated at that time.** Leeds's motivation is one of or any combination of the following:
1). Leeds may lack depth at the position that Smith plays so they want him for a year.
2). They may be pushing for promotion (or fighting relegation) and feel the addition of Smith for a year would give them a real boost toward accomplishing that.
3). They simply feel Smith is of a higher quality than anyone they have and that Smith will make them a better team, even if only for a year.
4). They may have an eye toward permanently buying Smith one day and think Everton will eventually sell (see the ** note below)
So that's a crash course in loans. It's basically a symbiotic relationship between two clubs. 9 out of 10 times, a club will loan a player for player development purposes. They want that player to get regular playing time he wouldn't otherwise get, so they loan him to an inferior team where he can get playing time. And the club taking the player on loan benefits from getting a player who's probably just as good if not better than the players they currently have, even if it's only for a half a season or a whole season. Sometimes it gets more complex than what I've described, but this is basically the gist of it. Oh and just FYI, a player doesn't always have to be loaned to an inferior league. It certainly does happen that some of the elite EPL teams loan a player to another EPL team, just one who's more a mid-table or bottom-of-the-table team. By rule, when those teams play each other, the loaned player is not allowed to play against his parent club. But yeah, that's it on loans. Really cool way to develop players and avoid letting them rot on your bench.
*It is important to note the structure of professional soccer in Europe. When I say lower divisions, don't think of it like minor league baseball where the only games that actually count are the MLB games. Lower divisions in England are still professional leagues. The Premier League is simply the very top league in the English system. The next league down is called the English Championship. Each year, three EPL teams are relegated to the Championship and three Championship teams are promoted to the EPL to replace them (I'll cover relegation/promotion in a different post). Then the next league down is English League One, then English League Two. And it goes on and on down the ladder all the way to semi-pro and amateur teams. Basically, any English soccer team can make its way up the ladder all the way to the Premier League if they're good enough.
**Sometimes loan deals include a "buy-on fee." What that means is, back to our example, during the loan deal negotiations, Leeds and Everton will agree upon a "buy-on" or "sell-on" fee. Let's say it's $10 million. What this means is, at the completion of the 1-year loan deal, if Leeds wants to permanently buy Smith, they simply pay $10 million and Everton has to sell for that price. No negotiations or bartering. That's the price. Usually loan deals don't include a buy-on fee because the parent club obviously wants the promising player back at the end of the loan after he's -- theoretically -- gotten better. But sometimes, clubs are iffy about a prospect and are loaning him just so he won't rot on the bench, and will agree to a buy-on fee.
I know I know. TL;DR. Hope that clears up loans a little bit for you. I'll tackle UEFA Champions League in a little bit when I'm less lazy. It requires some background.
Yeah. I love soccer but just cannot get into MLS. The product is just far inferior, from the play to the caliber of star players to the stadium atmospheres. MLS is making strides for sure but it's baby steps. They're also expanding too fast IMO. It's diluting the talent.
Call me a eurosnob or whatever, but I'm just meh towards MLS
@UNC71-00
Ok I'm back to explain Champions League. So I'll try not to bore you too much, but it requires a little background first.
Background
FIFA is the overall body that governs soccer (club and international), but underneath the FIFA umbrella there are regions that govern themselves (again, club and international):
-UEFA -- Euurope (EPL is in this one)
-CONMEBOL -- South America
-CONCACAF -- North America / Caribbean (US men's national team / MLS are in this one)
-CAF -- Africa
-AFC -- Asia
-OFC -- Oceanic countries like Indonesia and New Zealand
Each of these regions govern, among other things, their own method of member qualification for the World Cup, various intra-region international tournaments such as the CONCACAF Gold Cup or UEFA Euro Championships, and also club competitions like UEFA Champions League. So yeah, basically for the context of English Premier League, you just need to understand that EPL falls under the umbrella of UEFA, and therefore its qualifying teams compete in the UEFA Champions League (there's also a CONCACAF Champions League, for example).
UEFA Champions League
Though every region has its own version of the Champions League, whether called by that name or a different name, the UEFA Champions League is the creme de la creme. It's accepted that Europe has the best club soccer teams in the world, and therefore Champions League is the most prestigious club tournament in the world.
Basically, to understand what Champions League is, think of it as the NCAA basketball tournament (in fact, the structure of college sports, with multiple conferences all competing for the same ultimate trophy, is a pretty good comparison to the structure of European pro soccer). You have many different leagues: English Premiere League, Italian Serie A, German Bundesliga, Holland Eredivisie, etc etc. Basically every country has its own league. And just like with the NCAA Tournament, every league gets one automatic berth (league winner), but then the best leagues get at-large berths as well. In the Champions League, each league gets a pre-determined number of Champs League spots. For example, the EPL gets 4 spots, Spain's La Liga gets 4 spots, German Bundesliga gets 4 spots, and I believe Italian Serie A gets 3 spots. The number of spots each league gets is fluid and is determined by some complicated coefficient that takes into account how each league's teams fare in Champions League and Europa League (an inferior tournament to Champs League) over the last few years.
So what determines which clubs qualify for Champs League? It's based on league finish. So for example, this season, the EPL standings are probably going to end up being 1) Chelsea, 2) Manchester City, 3) Arsenal, 4) Manchester United. Since EPL gets 4 CL spots, those four teams will all be in the Champions League next season. In leagues that only get 1 bid, only the league champion qualifies.
Structure/Format:
Thnk of the UEFA Champions League format as sorta being like the NCAA Tournament but with a lot of play-in games in the beginning. The clubs from the lower-ranked leagues are matched up in two-leg home-and-away series and the winner moves on to the next round. This keeps going until a lot of the qualifying clubs from the lowest leagues are weeded out. Eventually, it wittles down to 32 clubs and from this point on, the setup is similar to the World Cup. They are drawn into 8 groups of 4. This starts the Group Stage.
In the Group Stage, you play the other 3 teams in your group twice, once at home and once away. 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss. After the 6 games, the top 2 teams in each group advance. This leaves 16 teams. Teams are drawn and it creates 8 matchups which are played as a home-and-away series. Winning teams advance so there's 8 teams left, then same happens and 4 are left, and same happens and finally 2. The Champions League Final -- which is played in a pre-determined neutral site like the Super Bowl -- is just one leg, a winner-take-all game.
So yeah that's the gist of it. Champions League takes place concurrently with the regular season. CL games are spliced in amongst team's regular league schedules. Champions League is desirable because it's very, veyr lucrative. The further you go in the tourney, the more $$$$ you make. Plus, if you're a Champions League qualifier, you can attract elite players much easier, because they want to play in the Champions League against the world's best.
Ok I'm back to explain Champions League. So I'll try not to bore you too much, but it requires a little background first.
Background
FIFA is the overall body that governs soccer (club and international), but underneath the FIFA umbrella there are regions that govern themselves (again, club and international):
-UEFA -- Euurope (EPL is in this one)
-CONMEBOL -- South America
-CONCACAF -- North America / Caribbean (US men's national team / MLS are in this one)
-CAF -- Africa
-AFC -- Asia
-OFC -- Oceanic countries like Indonesia and New Zealand
Each of these regions govern, among other things, their own method of member qualification for the World Cup, various intra-region international tournaments such as the CONCACAF Gold Cup or UEFA Euro Championships, and also club competitions like UEFA Champions League. So yeah, basically for the context of English Premier League, you just need to understand that EPL falls under the umbrella of UEFA, and therefore its qualifying teams compete in the UEFA Champions League (there's also a CONCACAF Champions League, for example).
UEFA Champions League
Though every region has its own version of the Champions League, whether called by that name or a different name, the UEFA Champions League is the creme de la creme. It's accepted that Europe has the best club soccer teams in the world, and therefore Champions League is the most prestigious club tournament in the world.
Basically, to understand what Champions League is, think of it as the NCAA basketball tournament (in fact, the structure of college sports, with multiple conferences all competing for the same ultimate trophy, is a pretty good comparison to the structure of European pro soccer). You have many different leagues: English Premiere League, Italian Serie A, German Bundesliga, Holland Eredivisie, etc etc. Basically every country has its own league. And just like with the NCAA Tournament, every league gets one automatic berth (league winner), but then the best leagues get at-large berths as well. In the Champions League, each league gets a pre-determined number of Champs League spots. For example, the EPL gets 4 spots, Spain's La Liga gets 4 spots, German Bundesliga gets 4 spots, and I believe Italian Serie A gets 3 spots. The number of spots each league gets is fluid and is determined by some complicated coefficient that takes into account how each league's teams fare in Champions League and Europa League (an inferior tournament to Champs League) over the last few years.
So what determines which clubs qualify for Champs League? It's based on league finish. So for example, this season, the EPL standings are probably going to end up being 1) Chelsea, 2) Manchester City, 3) Arsenal, 4) Manchester United. Since EPL gets 4 CL spots, those four teams will all be in the Champions League next season. In leagues that only get 1 bid, only the league champion qualifies.
Structure/Format:
Thnk of the UEFA Champions League format as sorta being like the NCAA Tournament but with a lot of play-in games in the beginning. The clubs from the lower-ranked leagues are matched up in two-leg home-and-away series and the winner moves on to the next round. This keeps going until a lot of the qualifying clubs from the lowest leagues are weeded out. Eventually, it wittles down to 32 clubs and from this point on, the setup is similar to the World Cup. They are drawn into 8 groups of 4. This starts the Group Stage.
In the Group Stage, you play the other 3 teams in your group twice, once at home and once away. 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss. After the 6 games, the top 2 teams in each group advance. This leaves 16 teams. Teams are drawn and it creates 8 matchups which are played as a home-and-away series. Winning teams advance so there's 8 teams left, then same happens and 4 are left, and same happens and finally 2. The Champions League Final -- which is played in a pre-determined neutral site like the Super Bowl -- is just one leg, a winner-take-all game.
So yeah that's the gist of it. Champions League takes place concurrently with the regular season. CL games are spliced in amongst team's regular league schedules. Champions League is desirable because it's very, veyr lucrative. The further you go in the tourney, the more $$$$ you make. Plus, if you're a Champions League qualifier, you can attract elite players much easier, because they want to play in the Champions League against the world's best.
Last edited:
Lol
Just saw the score- how did the Wartpigs get on the board? Are the Toffees just goofin with Watford and about to put up 3 to nail the coffin shut?
Last edited:
Martinez is gonna find himself out of a job by Christmas. Everton is the master of drawing teams. A draw against Watford isn't gonna cut it
They should sack him now, but the problem is they can't find anyone to do the job for a lower salary.
Probably true. Personally, I don't understand two things:
1) why Roberto Martinez is struggling to get results at Everton. He's a solid manager and overachieved big time with Wigan a few years ago.
2) why Everton isn't an attractive club for a mega-rich type to buy. They're stable in terms of (almost) never flirting with relegation. They've got good history and, more importantly, a strong fanbase. I think the right money man could turn EFC into a power. Plus people would support simply because they're Liverpool's rival. Since like 1990, liverpool is sorta like Moo. Vulgar, disgusting fans (but the club still has really solid support in terms of attendance home and away) and the team doesn't win anything anymore.
Yeah **** Arsenal lol. They've been my team since I was a kid, but as of about three years ago, I have been following Crystal Palace almost as close as I follow Arsenal and I'm about ready to make the permanent switch. Arsenal have no ambition. They are forever 2-3 quality players away from greatness but Arsene Wenger chooses not to buy. It would be like if Roy willingly decided not to recruit a couple 5-stars.
Palace is fun to watch, has passionate fans, and overachieves. Basically the opposite of Arsenal.
Well if he didn't toe poke that into their own net it was a sure goal for Rooney.
But yeah it was a disappointing performance, but Spurs are a solid side that I think could challenge for a top 4 spot this year if Kane heats up again. The word is that van Gaal still has another big signing or two coming in so its still hard to know what to expect from the Red Devils this year.
But yeah it was a disappointing performance, but Spurs are a solid side that I think could challenge for a top 4 spot this year if Kane heats up again. The word is that van Gaal still has another big signing or two coming in so its still hard to know what to expect from the Red Devils this year.
I meant the Bentelev giveaway in midfield that led directly to your goal sequence. Yeah, Rooney would've scored if Walker didn't intervene.
Oh yeah it was definitely a poor turnover. Pretty much as easy of a goal as you could ask for. I wasn't pleased to see the way Rooney hesitated over the ball. From that position he should've put that ball through the back of the net first time
That was terrible, although he played pretty well the rest of the match. Is it just me or does Howard play better for the USMNT than he does for the Toffees?
Last edited:
Much better. But whether it's on Everton or the national team, Howard is always good for one slip-up every other game. It's frustrating because he'll make 5 world class saves and then fail to cover his near post on a tight angle.
Regardless of that, Man City is just too good. Everton put up a good fight, but City's skill showed through in the end. They look tough to beat this season -- must be nice to be able to buy literally anyone you want...
Y'all fell victim to the beat that is Bafetimbi Gomis. Swansea can play. My boys Crystal Palace in 2nd place
Spurs fan for about 20 years now. A older gentleman(now deceased) moved to my neighborhood and actually had lived in a flat on White Hart Lane several blocks from the stadium. Followed them ever since. IMHO the only two teams that have a euro type atmosphere in MLS are Portland and Seattle. I have followed the Timbers for several years, but like everyone else here it seems, get kinda bored with it quick. Besides EPL, the Champions League games are pretty entertaining.
Liverpool is such a bunch of goons. Toffees need to take advantage of their talent rather than sink into the quagmire where Liverpool prefers to play.
Similar threads
