Very quick stuff (ND game)...

[gary-7]

But to that same note Gary it is easy to be harder on the players you expect more out of.

Perhaps so, but doesn't that skew things a bit? For example, I look more at the coaching staff (who should've known better), starting the season with a self-inflicted wound by trying to run an ill-conceived scheme that actually enabled Caleb's (and others') bad habits.

As we have (thankfully) moved to a return to sounder Carolina concepts, those temptations have been greatly reduced. Let us hope that both staff and players continue the reformation, as it were.

 

[imajericho]

I wouldn't say Love had a good game. I'd say very slightly above average.

6-16 (3-10 from 2, 3-6 from 3) 3-3 FT, 2 Assists, 1 Steal, 1 Turnover, 3 Rebounds, 18 points. It screams kinda average. Its a good amount of points on a good amount of shots. Barely efficient and wasn't without the perfect FT shooting. Didn't affect the game a lot in other places with the pass or rebounds and such.

Davis was...

5-11 (3-7 from 2, 2-4 from 3) 1-2 FT, 5 Assists, 2 Steals, 1 Turnover, 5 Rebounds. 14 points.

I'd say RJ had the better game, but I think RJs game was approaching good but not quite good either. In fact, I don't think we had many players play good or great against Notre Dame.

But having above average games from both is good. I don't think we can lose a game where RJ and Caleb both are good or great. Last year we knew we couldn't lose if 2 of the 3 of Love, Davis, and Manek were on. Couldn't not blow them out if all 3 were on. Could lose if only 1 was on and were probably gonna get smoked if all 3 were off.

I feel somewhat the same this year. I don't think we can lose if Love and Davis are just both on. Against anyone. We do lack the Manek dimension though which helps to eliminate variance. Would love to see someone step up to be this perimeter threat. Still think Nickel can fill this but apparently Davis wants Nickel to transfer to UVA or something.

*shrug*

 

[alabamaheel]

Perhaps so, but doesn't that skew things a bit? For example, I look more at the coaching staff (who should've known better), starting the season with a self-inflicted wound by trying to run an ill-conceived scheme that actually encouraged Caleb's (and others') bad habits.

As we have (thankfully) moved to a return to sounder Carolina concepts, those temptations have been greatly reduced. Let us hope that both staff and players continue the reformation, as it were.

IMO not at all. I know the staff has had its woes but even once they figured it out Caleb still reverts back to old ways. I honestly think too much is expected of him and last year was his ceiling. Firing on all cylinders if you will. We’ll see.

 

[DSouthr]

Even though Leaky is showing more signs of offensive aggression, this is generally true.

Whether it's Dudley Bradley or Jackie Manuel or Leaky, other than special situations, you can only afford to have one "specialist" in the lineup for long stretches. We were just a different and better offensive team with Dunn in the game as the small 3, and it's not like he's a bad defender by any means either.

As I said in the OP, in small-ball I like a 3/4 of Dunn/Leaky or Trimble/Puff

Honestly, there is not a single thing in this post I can agree with, just way off on so many levels. Out of respect, I will just leave it at that. Very disappointing...

 

[DSouthr]

I wouldn't say Love had a good game. I'd say very slightly above average.

6-16 (3-10 from 2, 3-6 from 3) 3-3 FT, 2 Assists, 1 Steal, 1 Turnover, 3 Rebounds, 18 points. It screams kinda average. Its a good amount of points on a good amount of shots. Barely efficient and wasn't without the perfect FT shooting. Didn't affect the game a lot in other places with the pass or rebounds and such.

Davis was...

5-11 (3-7 from 2, 2-4 from 3) 1-2 FT, 5 Assists, 2 Steals, 1 Turnover, 5 Rebounds. 14 points.

I'd say RJ had the better game, but I think RJs game was approaching good but not quite good either. In fact, I don't think we had many players play good or great against Notre Dame.

But having above average games from both is good. I don't think we can lose a game where RJ and Caleb both are good or great. Last year we knew we couldn't lose if 2 of the 3 of Love, Davis, and Manek were on. Couldn't not blow them out if all 3 were on. Could lose if only 1 was on and were probably gonna get smoked if all 3 were off.

I feel somewhat the same this year. I don't think we can lose if Love and Davis are just both on. Against anyone. We do lack the Manek dimension though which helps to eliminate variance. Would love to see someone step up to be this perimeter threat. Still think Nickel can fill this but apparently Davis wants Nickel to transfer to UVA or something.

*shrug*

Yeah, I agree for the most part, I would not say either Caleb or RJ had bad games, I consider their game vs ND as better than what they did at Pitt. I will as well agree that RJ was pretty close to good for RJ. Caleb had a rather efficient first half but slide in to some bad shots and loose with the ball during a stretch in that second half which lessens how I see his game over all.

I would agree, as you allude, we can win with games like that from Caleb and RJ because aside from that one stretch the shot selections were pretty good for this team. I very much agree that I want Nickel to get court time, really do not understand his reduced PT over the last few games, especially with Nance out and Leaky less than 100%.

 

[alabamaheel]

I wouldn't say Love had a good game. I'd say very slightly above average.

6-16 (3-10 from 2, 3-6 from 3) 3-3 FT, 2 Assists, 1 Steal, 1 Turnover, 3 Rebounds, 18 points. It screams kinda average. Its a good amount of points on a good amount of shots. Barely efficient and wasn't without the perfect FT shooting. Didn't affect the game a lot in other places with the pass or rebounds and such.

Davis was...

5-11 (3-7 from 2, 2-4 from 3) 1-2 FT, 5 Assists, 2 Steals, 1 Turnover, 5 Rebounds. 14 points.

I'd say RJ had the better game, but I think RJs game was approaching good but not quite good either. In fact, I don't think we had many players play good or great against Notre Dame.

But having above average games from both is good. I don't think we can lose a game where RJ and Caleb both are good or great. Last year we knew we couldn't lose if 2 of the 3 of Love, Davis, and Manek were on. Couldn't not blow them out if all 3 were on. Could lose if only 1 was on and were probably gonna get smoked if all 3 were off.

I feel somewhat the same this year. I don't think we can lose if Love and Davis are just both on. Against anyone. We do lack the Manek dimension though which helps to eliminate variance. Would love to see someone step up to be this perimeter threat. Still think Nickel can fill this but apparently Davis wants Nickel to transfer to UVA or something.

*shrug*

I definitely get where your coming from and somewhat agree but if you take into consideration how Love had played previously, then he had a great game.
In the first half he didn’t pull any crazy shots or drive one on one out of control with that 20’ high floater. The second half he reverted back for a few possessions but passed a couple of nice dishes out. I just can’t understand why he can’t see the writing on the wall. He’s almost like a dang shark. He gets a taste of blood and goes crazy. That would be ok if he would only eat what he’s supposed to. But, he often nips at the team plan and others. Lol horrible analogy. Bahahaha

 

[gary-7]

Honestly, there is not a single thing in this post I can agree with, just way off on so many levels. Out of respect, I will just leave it at that. Very disappointing...

Welp, that disappointment is of your own creation, my friend. What I said was, frankly, fairly obvious.

Look, it's all well and good that you like a particular player, but that needn't go so far as to annoint him with skills he doesn't possess or erase shortcomings. In this case, Seth has just had his two best games, but he's still not much of an offensive threat outside of transition. And for the record, for those talking about him "running things", he did not play the 1 on Saturday (which is a good thing) --- he was off-ball and almost exclusively at the 3 in Leaky's normal role. The entry passes he made were designed to come from the wing.

Make no mistake, Seth and Leaky had very good defensive games, but meanwhile, Dunn and Puff sparked our offensive spurts, and not coincidentally, had the best +/- rates on the team. Point is that all four of these guys are gonna play, but the key is in what combination? Utilizing complementary skillsets would make nothing but sense.

 

[alabamaheel]

Welp, that disappointment is of your own creation, my friend. What I said was, frankly, fairly obvious.

Look, it's all well and good that you like a particular player, but that needn't go so far as to annoint him with skills he doesn't possess or erase shortcomings. In this case, Seth has just had his two best games, but he's still not much of an offensive threat outside of transition. And for the record, for those talking about him "running things", he did not play the 1 on Saturday (which is a good thing) --- he was off-ball and almost exclusively at the 3 in Leaky's normal role. The entry passes he made were designed to come from the wing.

Make no mistake, Seth and Leaky had very good defensive games, but meanwhile, Dunn and Puff sparked our offensive spurts, and not coincidentally, had the best +/- rates on the team. Point is that all four of these guys are gonna play, but the key is in what combination? Utilizing complementary skillsets would make nothing but sense.

Just for the record when I said running the offense I meant playing the way you are supposed to. Idc if he’s a pg1 2 or 3 he’s done what a pg is supposed to be doing. He’s gotten zero credit for the look ahead passing. Or any other traits he may have exhibited as a pg because he’s not one in your eyes, and that’s ok. We all have opinions.
Edit to add. They only stat I wish he could bring up is his long ball. Small sample size but his numbers are really close to Joel’s first year. His defense is better at this stage but his three ball is not. Fg percentage is better but once again small sample size. He’s a freshman, let’s see how it plays out.

 

[al would]

I actually really like Seth and Leaky in the game together and especially liked them starting together

I think Leaky and Seth starting together make this group better (both D and O) .. especially if Leaky adds some interior aggression to the rack. I think gap penetration to the rack opens up a lot of opportunities both inside and out.

 

[alabamaheel]

I think Leaky and Seth starting together make this group better (both D and O) .. especially if Leaky adds some interior aggression to the rack. I think gap penetration to the rack opens up a lot of opportunities both inside and out.

And leaky has to know this. He’s so dangerous when he’s aggressive

 

[Heels5150]

The men’s team really need to watch our women’s team as far as playing every single possession with passion. I mean real, genuine appreciation, thankfulness give it your all passion. It’s inspiring. The way they huddle together at the free throw line, pick up players who fall, thank the passer and just their overall enthusiasm in general. A player makes a mistake and they are so encouraging. It reminds me of our former DES and some of Roy’s men’s teams who played like that and as a team they were just a machine. The Women’s Team are a lot of fun to watch.

 

[gary-7]

Just for the record when I said running the offense I meant playing the way you are supposed to. Idc if he’s a pg1 2 or 3 he’s done what a pg is supposed to be doing. He’s gotten zero credit for the look ahead passing. Or any other traits he may have exhibited as a pg because he’s not one in your eyes, and that’s ok. We all have opinions.
Edit to add. They only stat I wish he could bring up is his long ball. Small sample size but his numbers are really close to Joel’s first year. His defense is better at this stage but his three ball is not. Fg percentage is better but once again small sample size. He’s a freshman, let’s see how it plays out.

Um yeah, small sample, but just whoa now... let's rein in the horses there in general.

First, I give the credit due and have specifically complimented Seth's transition play. And BTW, if pitching ahead is a "PG play", then hell, Kennedy Meeks must've been a big one.

And pulling no punches, anything lacking in Joel's freshman numbers was squarely on Roy's under-use. a blunder that if made in today's environmenmt might well have cost us Joel's services and a Natty.

Moreover. using that comparison is apples and oranges anyway. Joel (properly) played nothing but Point, and that's a WHOLE nuther deal. Seth is right where he needs to be at the wing, and it's no accident his play and numbers have improved markedly since we've mostly unburdened him from PG responsibilities.

 

[al would]

Seth is right where he needs to be at the wing, and it's no accident his play and numbers have improved markedly since we've mostly unburdened him from PG responsibilities.

OK .. so Seth is now a starting 6'3 wing without Nance and he is a better wing than g/pg .. does that mean RJ is the designated pg .. ?? Is Seth a better wing than Puff ?? How does this pencil out on D with a team not ND where the match-ups aint so friendly? Do you think HD has even designated someone to play pg or has he adopted a "position-less" team concept?

 

[Tarheel75]

OK .. so Seth is now a starting 6'3 wing without Nance and he is a better wing than g/pg .. does that mean RJ is the designated pg .. ?? Is Seth a better wing than Puff ?? How does this pencil out on D with a team not ND where the match-ups aint so friendly? Do you think HD has even designated someone to play pg or has he adopted a "position-less" team concept?

AW-did you see the Bilas 64-foot interview with RJ at the half? I re-watched the game after I came from the DES Center and caught that. He asked RJ what his position was, "was he shooting guard or a PG". RJ immediately responded, "a point guard".

 

[alabamaheel]

AW-did you see the Bilas 64-foot interview with RJ at the half? I re-watched the game after I came from the DES Center and caught that. He asked RJ what his position was, "was he shooting guard or a PG". RJ immediately responded, "a point guard".

That was interesting. He didn’t even blink.

 

[gary-7]

OK .. so Seth is now a starting 6'3 wing without Nance and he is a better wing than g/pg .. does that mean RJ is the designated pg .. ?? Is Seth a better wing than Puff ?? How does this pencil out on D with a team not ND where the match-ups aint so friendly? Do you think HD has even designated someone to play pg or has he adopted a "position-less" team concept?

It is not positionless. While there are sets in which, say, the 2 initiates the play, our base sets and Freelance subsume RJ as default PG as of now. That is what it is, with the good news being that the more transition we do, the less we hafta worry about such things.

As for Seth, I didn't say or insinuate anything about him starting or being better or worse than anyone. You're right that the ND matchup was a good one for him, and that won't always be the case. Against bigger teams Leaky needs to be the 3, with either Pete or Puff starting at the 4. And with that said, if we start "small" again, I'm on record as preferring Dunn start at the 3 if Leaky is at the 4.

And BTW, when I say "wing", I mean 2 or 3.

 

[imajericho]

Leaky could definitely handle the 4 full time defensively. We usually prefer him as a perimeter defender though.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Thank goodness the team celebrates when someone plays well without having to compare them to one of their teammates! We as fans could learn the lesson that someone doesn't have to play poorly for someone else to play well. A high tide raises ALL boats! Seth is adding to the success of the team and there is no intelligent reason to believe that his success has to be to the detriment of anybody else! RJ is our PG, Caleb is our 2 (who can play some 1) and Seth is growing into an excellent option at 1-3! We have the flexibility to plug in several different types in multiple slots and this just makes us harder to gameplan for!

 

[Heels5150]

Thank goodness the team celebrates when someone plays well without having to compare them to one of their teammates! We as fans could learn the lesson that someone doesn't have to play poorly for someone else to play well. A high tide raises ALL boats! Seth is adding to the success of the team and there is no intelligent reason to believe that his success has to be to the detriment of anybody else! RJ is our PG, Caleb is our 2 (who can play some 1) and Seth is growing into an excellent option at 1-3! We have the flexibility to plug in several different types in multiple slots and this just makes us harder to gameplan for!

Very well said!

 

[DSouthr]

Thank goodness the team celebrates when someone plays well without having to compare them to one of their teammates! We as fans could learn the lesson that someone doesn't have to play poorly for someone else to play well. A high tide raises ALL boats! Seth is adding to the success of the team and there is no intelligent reason to believe that his success has to be to the detriment of anybody else! RJ is our PG, Caleb is our 2 (who can play some 1) and Seth is growing into an excellent option at 1-3! We have the flexibility to plug in several different types in multiple slots and this just makes us harder to gameplan for!

And I try really hard to not demean or discount any of our players when I discuss Seth's play and what I think he can give us. Stated many times, as long as RJ plays for UNC he will be the starting PG. I have as well stated and it is my strong belief that RJ's game is more that of a 2 guard and Caleb is as well a 2 guard. RJ can handle the point much better than Caleb does, I don't think anyone would argue with those 2 statements. I do strongly believe that Trimble is a natural PG, he is a past first PG that looks to get his team mates the ball in a position to be able to cleanly finish, that clearly is top of mind for the kid.

Gary retorts that Trimble did not play at the point vs ND, have I not been saying that all season, lost count how many times I have shared that Trimble only on rare occasions has been in as the PG, yet he very often takes the opposing teams PG on the defensive end because the 2 "PGs" we have can not handle that aspect of the PG role. While yes there are some teams we can match up with having Seth at the 3 Leaky at the 4, that does not work vs longer or bulky front courts. UVa starting 4 is 6'6" but he is 235lbs, hard assignment for leaky. UVa can as well come in with a lot of length and that can bother us, has bothered us. I much prefer Trimble at the 1 or 2 and Leaky at the 3, that does not mean I am calling for Seth to start in place of RJ or Caleb, I just think when Seth comes in he should come in as the PG and either Caleb or RJ handles the 2.

The only argument I am going to get is from those that have been adamant that Trimble can not play the point, based on what, watching him come in at OTHER POSITIONS and not as the PG?

1) I ask you, who is the best back court (meaning the point and 2 guard spots) defender we have? I say it is Trimble by a wide margin, not close.

2) I ask you, who is the best ball handler we have? I say it is Trimble, some could argue RJ while I do not agree the difference is closer than my first question. I don't see Caleb even in this discussion, in fact I would give 3rd place to Leaky.

3) Who is fastest with the ball on the dribble (the Ty Lawson question), I will take Trimble there, RJ is improved in this aspect.

4) Who is the best scorer from the PG position, hands down RJ, Caleb is strong here as well when Good Caleb is playing.

5) Who is the better passer? I will go with Trimble because he is more a willing passer that is very good at it, does not take the high risk pass attempt, gets the ball to his mates in their sweet spots, tosses catchable passes, consistently looks to pound the ball in to the big man in the paint.

These are the things I look at when I scream Trimble is a PG. Now I am not going to discount RJ's experience as our PG, exactly the reason I do not call for Seth to start at the point, not going to discount any aspect that RJ or Caleb (or Dunn) bring to the table as scorers, that is vitally important. All 3 of those fellas are for now better scorers than Seth, all 3 look to score as their default top of mind and Seth looks first to pass. Rather than see that as a dig against Seth, I see it as a positive for him.

I think it is really important to add, there is no reason in my mind that justifies RJ and Caleb playing so many minutes, no reason that Seth and Dunn do not get solid minutes every night. And can someone explain to me, maybe my 50yrs of love for this game has not let me learn a reason as to why Nickel is not playing more, most especially now that nance has back issues? I don't care if it is a close game or who we are playing, no reason for those huge minutes with the talent we have on our bench. I would rather RJ and Caleb were able to play with fresher legs in a close game that is coming down to the final buzzer than with legs that have already played over 35mins.

 

[imajericho]

A 6'6 235 lb 4 would not be a hard assignment for leaky imo. His length will bother him immensely and the added weight can be a detriment not a plus for the offender since Leaky can rely on his length and draw charges if muscled.

 

[DSouthr]

Um yeah, small sample, but just whoa now... let's rein in the horses there in general.

First, I give the credit due and have specifically complimented Seth's transition play. And BTW, if pitching ahead is a "PG play", then hell, Kennedy Meeks must've been a big one.

And pulling no punches, anything lacking in Joel's freshman numbers was squarely on Roy's under-use. a blunder that if made in today's environmenmt might well have cost us Joel's services and a Natty.

Moreover. using that comparison is apples and oranges anyway. Joel (properly) played nothing but Point, and that's a WHOLE nuther deal. Seth is right where he needs to be at the wing, and it's no accident his play and numbers have improved markedly since we've mostly unburdened him from PG responsibilities.

OMG, "unburdened him from PG duties"? Really, really did I read that right? How in the heck did Seth unburdened by PG duties he has only been rarely allowed to play? You tell me boss, this is a simple question, how often do you see when Seth is in the game he is the one that brings the ball up court? Lets be fair now, vast majority of the time it is either RJ or Caleb bringing the ball up court when Seth is in the game, the ball is only on rare occasions going thru Seth, it is going thru RJ or Caleb.

FINALLY, at long last, and I do appreciate it, FINALLY you "First, I give the credit due and have specifically complimented Seth's transition play.". I recall not long ago both you and 75 saying that Seth was not doing that as your main reason for your position that he is not a PG. So yeah, I do appreciate that, even if it is baby steps it is a forward move. Now the inclusion of Meeks was silly but you knew that when you wrote it.

 

[imajericho]

I think Trimble is a downgrade from RJ as PG at this time, and it is good RJ is the PG. Trimble the limited time I have seen him run the point tends to drive to the foul line and pick up his dribble on penetration. That's expected as a freshman though. RJ did it also for awhile.

RJ is becoming a good defender in his own right, but you have to remember a lot of them cannot be as aggressive as Trimble can afford to since they are playing like 38 minutes a game or some crap lol. Fouls and energy have to be taken into account.

 

[DSouthr]

A 6'6 235 lb 4 would not be a hard assignment for leaky imo. His length will bother him immensely and the added weight can be a detriment not a plus for the offender since Leaky can rely on his length and draw charges if muscled.

Yeah but we have struggled with those kind of guys for some reason. Our 4s are not really physical or physically strong, those shorter but bulky guys have been able to get away with bumping our longer but thin guys off and then finishing. I do think nance can play over the top of that guy but not so sure Leaky can.

 

[imajericho]

Yeah but we have struggled with those kind of guys for some reason. Our 4s are not really physical or physically strong, those shorter but bulky guys have been able to get away with bumping our longer but thin guys off and then finishing. I do think nance can play over the top of that guy but not so sure Leaky can.

Leaky would be able to cover him better than Nance. The reason we have fits with them is cuz they can take a big man on the perimeter and can blow past our slow footwork big men. Leaky would be able to stop the drives and the perimeter threat.

Problem is if you use Leaky there, you free up another perimeter shooter and if out defenders switch ball screens which we usually always do. If Virginia is a smaller lineup, that is where Trimble at the 2-3 could be beneficial.

 

[DSouthr]

I think Trimble is a downgrade from RJ as PG at this time, and it is good RJ is the PG. Trimble the limited time I have seen him run the point tends to drive to the foul line and pick up his dribble on penetration. That's expected as a freshman though. RJ did it also for awhile.

RJ is becoming a good defender in his own right, but you have to remember a lot of them cannot be as aggressive as Trimble can afford to since they are playing like 38 minutes a game or some crap lol. Fouls and energy have to be taken into account.

VERY QUICKLY I will reply that neither RJ nor Caleb should be playing 38mins a game in the first place! LOL

I have seen as a constant, in the rare occasions Trimble is actually playing the point he come down and immediately look to get the ball in deep to Bacot. Absolutely he will at times penetrate the lane with the dribble and discover there is nothing there, but as you share, he is a freshman, I expect that.

Rj is becoming a better defender, a kid that plays with as much grit as he does you expect him to give all he has on the defensive end. But Jericho, I am going to invite you to watch something, you can watch it from future games if you wish or you can go watch past games this season. Watch when a guard drives all the way to the block charge circle vs RJ, typically that driving guard will have at least a half step on RJ, they will have a full step on Caleb. Then watch them drive on Trimble, he stones them, they have to pul off any action they are trying to pull off and regroup. I am not telling you that is what happens consistently, I am inviting you to go see it for yourself.

Look, I am not asking anyone to believe me just out of me saying it, I am inviting you or anyone, go watch it for yourself, make you own conclusion, don't believe me because you can say yeah but D, Seth is your guy. I don't say this because Seth is my guy, I am just telling you what I see. Go see for yourself but DON'T LISTEN TO ANYONE and frame your opinion on their words, that includes me most definitely!

 

[DSouthr]

Leaky would be able to cover him better than Nance. The reason we have fits with them is cuz they can take a big man on the perimeter and can blow past our slow footwork big men. Leaky would be able to stop the drives and the perimeter threat.

Problem is if you use Leaky there, you free up another perimeter shooter and if out defenders switch ball screens which we usually always do. If Virginia is a smaller lineup, that is where Trimble at the 2-3 could be beneficial.

IDK, is the UVa 4 a stretch guy, I am thinking maybe not? Old axiom in this game is that a smaller guy has the advantage over a bigger guy in space but the bigger guy has the advantage in the paint. I suspect a guy built like their 4 is more a inside the paint guy that may stretch some but mostly looks to bully his way thru thinner defending 4s. If that is the case I prefer nance on him more than leaky and I absolutely want Leaky on their wing because that guy can shoot it when he gets in a groove, think he is a bit streaky.

 

[Tarheel75]

A 6'6 235 lb 4 would not be a hard assignment for leaky imo. His length will bother him immensely and the added weight can be a detriment not a plus for the offender since Leaky can rely on his length and draw charges if muscled.

A player with more weight also has to deal with running out of energy sooner say, than Leaky would, and if he stays on the court tired out, it makes him so much more liable on the defensive side when defending and is more likely to foul because of it. Leaky has defended larger opponents in the past and has been successful, so I don't think it will be an issue. Leaky has the knack of making opponents work very hard to get their points.

 

[imajericho]

DSouthr. Watch RJ Davis and Love in the blowouts last year versus the final 3 regular season games and the first 5 ncaat games.

I don't know if it was defensive philosophy or what, but RJ and Love didn't get beat by steps but absolutely blown past to be freely to the lane in those early games.

This is the unsung reason with our huge difference between early and late season. If you watch later on, RJ Davis almost completely cuts every drive off and forces the offender to drive into him or to cut off the attack. Love not as consistently but still greatly does the same.

I won't contest that Love is getting beat a ton defensively right now. It's obvious as can be. I don't agree with Davis, though I can look for it. Davis is getting pushed off on a lot in games due to being there. Heck, Cummings for Pitt I think pushed off with an elbow to RJs face twice in that game.

Trimble as I stated above or in another thread does hound the ball handler, but sometimes this just speeds up the offensive player and still ends up with a basket over Trimble. I'd rather him be aggressive than not so I have no complaints, but they are playing different styles. Trimble is hounding while RJ is preventing.

Unless Hubert unleashes the all out defense, this is just how RJ is being instructed to play the ball. It's basically impossible to stop every drive playing off and not hounding because if the offensive player is as quick, he has the initiative. RJ uses his basketball IQ to cut it off as best as possible. RJ however also is caught sometimes helping others (Washington not covering people on the perimeter right sold out RJ a lot that game).

RJ is a very strong defender as long as he isn't caught on a switch with a much bigger opponent.

Love can be a strong defender, but I am unsure why he isn't right now. I suspect he will hone in at crunch time like last year... I hope.

 

[gary-7]

FINALLY, at long last, and I do appreciate it, FINALLY you "First, I give the credit due and have specifically complimented Seth's transition play.". I recall not long ago both you and 75 saying that Seth was not doing that as your main reason for your position that he is not a PG. So yeah, I do appreciate that, even if it is baby steps it is a forward move. Now the inclusion of Meeks was silly but you knew that when you wrote it.

i said no such thing. Just the opposite, in fact. Wow, you have really gone off the deep end on this.
And no, the Meeks thing wasn't silly. The point was that pitching ahead doesn't make one a PG.
And yes, Seth has been better since being unburdened with something he is NOT natural at.

 

[DSouthr]

i said no such thing. Just the opposite, in fact. Wow, you have really gone off the deep end on this.
And no, the Meeks thing wasn't silly. The point was that pitching ahead doesn't make one a PG.
And yes, Seth has been better since being unburdened with something he is NOT natural at.

Now gary, you know perfectly well the difference between a great outlet passing big man and a PG, that is exactly why I consider bringing Meeks in to this as silly.

It is really hard to be unburdened by a thing that you were actually no burdened with in the first place. I could some what see your point if Seth had been playing the point consistently when he came in games this season but that has not been the case, do you argue that Seth has been the PG most of the time he has been in games this season? If you do we have not been watching the same games.

What deep end have I gone off of gary, last post I gave 5 attributes of a PG, I don't see you disagreeing with how I see any of those attributes, I don't see anyone disagreeing actually with those attributes of a PG or my conclusions of each individual attribute. All I see is this blanket statement that I am wrong but you don't give me any rational reason as to what it is I am wrong about. Have I done that to you, don't think I have, think I have given you specifics traits of what I want in a PG, have I not? Yet I am off the deep end? LOL

You said no such thing? Gary, I copy and pasted your words man (I put them in quotes so my former english prof would be proud) , I didn't make that up.

 

[DSouthr]

DSouthr. Watch RJ Davis and Love in the blowouts last year versus the final 3 regular season games and the first 5 ncaat games.

I don't know if it was defensive philosophy or what, but RJ and Love didn't get beat by steps but absolutely blown past to be freely to the lane in those early games.

This is the unsung reason with our huge difference between early and late season. If you watch later on, RJ Davis almost completely cuts every drive off and forces the offender to drive into him or to cut off the attack. Love not as consistently but still greatly does the same.

I won't contest that Love is getting beat a ton defensively right now. It's obvious as can be. I don't agree with Davis, though I can look for it. Davis is getting pushed off on a lot in games due to being there. Heck, Cummings for Pitt I think pushed off with an elbow to RJs face twice in that game.

Trimble as I stated above or in another thread does hound the ball handler, but sometimes this just speeds up the offensive player and still ends up with a basket over Trimble. I'd rather him be aggressive than not so I have no complaints, but they are playing different styles. Trimble is hounding while RJ is preventing.

Unless Hubert unleashes the all out defense, this is just how RJ is being instructed to play the ball. It's basically impossible to stop every drive playing off and not hounding because if the offensive player is as quick, he has the initiative. RJ uses his basketball IQ to cut it off as best as possible. RJ however also is caught sometimes helping others (Washington not covering people on the perimeter right sold out RJ a lot that game).

RJ is a very strong defender as long as he isn't caught on a switch with a much bigger opponent.

Love can be a strong defender, but I am unsure why he isn't right now. I suspect he will hone in at crunch time like last year... I hope.

Why do I have to look at last years games, I prefer to look at this years games? Last years games at this point mean very little if anything. One guy stays in front of his man and 1 trails by a half step, it is there for you to see, go look. Not trying to be a jerk by saying this, just saying, don't trust, go look for yourself. If you consider trailing you man by a half step on drives to be better defense than cool, I won't agree but if that is your opinion fine.

Make sure I say this, if I ask you to pick between A and B, and I think B is better than A yet you feel A is better, my friend I am fine and dandy with that, I will just disagree, no harm no foul. That goes for you, gary, 75, any and everyone. My point is simply that B is not being fairly compared to A. I have been consistent all season, I have called balls and strikes as I see them not as I want to see them and I have justified why, those disagreeing with me on this have looked to avoid answering the easy to answer questions I have asked.

 

[gary-7]

Now gary, you know perfectly well the difference between a great outlet passing big man and a PG, that is exactly why I consider bringing Meeks in to this as silly.

It is really hard to be unburdened by a thing that you were actually no burdened with in the first place. I could some what see your point if Seth had been playing the point consistently when he came in games this season but that has not been the case, do you argue that Seth has been the PG most of the time he has been in games this season? If you do we have not been watching the same games.

What deep end have I gone off of gary, last post I gave 5 attributes of a PG, I don't see you disagreeing with how I see any of those attributes, I don't see anyone disagreeing actually with those attributes of a PG or my conclusions of each individual attribute. All I see is this blanket statement that I am wrong but you don't give me any rational reason as to what it is I am wrong about. Have I done that to you, don't think I have, think I have given you specifics traits of what I want in a PG, have I not? Yet I am off the deep end? LOL

You said no such thing? Gary, I copy and pasted your words man (I put them in quotes so my former english prof would be proud) , I didn't make that up.

What are you even talking about??? I've always said that Seth is good in transition, BUT... I NEVER said that makes him a PG, and never would. Good grief. Leaky is good in transition, but he ain't a PG either.

It is really this simple: Seth has played pretty well OFF the ball, but when he's been at point it is mostly ugly on the offesnive end. He has no instinctive sense of spacing, nor of how to move a defense, and he takes the ball into no-man's land. There are your "rational reasons", and I dunno why you insist on beating this DEAD horse, because trust me, it ain't breathin'.

 

[ACokeForRoy]

@gary-7 what are you hearing about Ian Jackson after his weekend visit? I see had a pretty good seats for the game.

 

[Tarheel75]

David, you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint(s) just as Gary & I are entitled to ours. I have to agree with Gary that Trimble, while a very welcome asset, is not a PG. I don't care what attributes you assign to him, I played with several of the best PG's to ever play for UNC and I can categorically say he is NOT a PG.

Just because he has some skills with the ball, passes well, and plays damn good defense, he does not and probably will never have the PG's mentality. True LGs or PGs are a rare commodity because they have to be able to call offenses and defenses on the run without a coach screaming from the sidelines what defense or offense to run. He has to get his instructions from the bench on every single trip up or down the court. I have watched him in every game he has played, and he has yet to make a call on his own volition and that is not how a PG reacts in the UNC system. It's just another case of substituting a 2G for a PG.

What I hope will happen, is that Elliot Cadeau re-classes to 23, then we all will see the differences. PG's in the past (ie) Eddie Fogler, Steve Previs, Phil Ford, Jimmy Black, Kenny Smith, King Rice, Derrick Phelps, Jeff McInnis, Ed Cota, Ronald Curry, Ray Felton, Ty Lawson (once he got his head screwed on tight), Kendall Marshall, Marcus Paige who, along with Joel Berry were the only 2G's that made successful transitions to PG. All of the above had the PG mentality that enabled them to see plays before they even developed and get the ball to the correct man in the best position to score the ball. All of the above knew when to shoot and when to pass and with their acute vision and seeing plays before they develop made our fast break & secondary breaks a real thing of beauty. Trimble does not and most likely will not ever possess those traits.

In case you wonder, Joel said in an interview that he considered himself a 2G upon arrival and Roy said he was going to be our future PG to play with Paige, and while he struggled his first year and gave thoughts to transferring, he stuck it out and was one of the toughest and best PGs to play for UNC and that's not my distinction but was Phil Ford's and I defer to him on that score.

So, the question: Can a 2G develop into a PG?......yes, as we all witnessed in Marcus and Joel. However, it is rare that it ever happens unless you have natural inborne PG instincts that Trimble simply does not have. I am glad that he is on our side, he is unquestionably a great athlete who is playing out of position when plays the PG.