When I talk about the UNC history of opposing 'professionalized football'

[WoadBlue]

many posters reject it all as wild talk with no foundation. They tend to be the same people who not only could not see what I saw about Fedora in his 2nd and 3rd years at UNC, but could not see it all even last year. Failure to know actual history (as opposed to the falsehood of court history) and failure to discern what is in front of the eyes often go hand in hand.

UNC, for those who need the recap, was dominated by faculty and administration that were adamantly opposed to the 'professionalization' of college sports no later than the 1920s. They went on the warpath as soon as the Choo Choo years were over, in part because they hated the GI Bill and what it meant for admissions generally, with Choo Choo and other military vet football players horrifying them specifically.

The 'deal' those faculty and administrators made was to hold football back while allowing basketball to go hog wild with 'professionalism.' St John's was as 'professional' a college basketball program as existed back then other than UK and KU and (just before then, before the scandal, CCNY). And UNC hired St Johns coach Frank McGuire without the faculty going nuts in opposition.

But when UNC hired alum Big Jim Tatum as football coach, faculty opposition was strident and persistent for at least a half a year afterwards, and it focused on Tatum as a professional type coach who won a National title at Maryland by professionalizing the program.

A podcast on TOS is the first such thing I ever recall hearing someone other than me get specific about what UNC faculty did to show their contempt for the biggest Big Time football HC we have ever hired, and he was an alum.

UNC has a very long history of acting to retard its football progress. Fedora fits that bill.

 

[Xlance]

This is a large part of my support of Jeff Monken.
If we have to live with the restrictions of the faculty and administration at least we can hire a coach that can:
think and plan
win with the talent that the PTB will admit into Carolina
energize the fan base
care for and graduate his players
win on a consistent basis.

UVa held a similar attitude as the faculty/administration at Carolina but transformed their program when they hired George Welsh from Navy.

 

[tarheel0910]

This is a large part of my support of Jeff Monken.
If we have to live with the restrictions of the faculty and administration at least we can hire a coach that can:
think and plan
win with the talent that the PTB will admit into Carolina
energize the fan base
care for and graduate his players
win on a consistent basis.

UVa held a similar attitude as the faculty/administration at Carolina but transformed their program when they hired George Welsh from Navy.

Please stop with this. He's not coming and he wouldn't be a consistent winner here. GT is the perfect case study. And he would in no way energize the fan base. There would be about 15k fans show up.

 

[WoadBlue]

This is a large part of my support of Jeff Monken.
If we have to live with the restrictions of the faculty and administration at least we can hire a coach that can:
think and plan
win with the talent that the PTB will admit into Carolina
energize the fan base
care for and graduate his players
win on a consistent basis.

UVa held a similar attitude as the faculty/administration at Carolina but transformed their program when they hired George Welsh from Navy.

True. Welsh changed UVA football forever, from then much lower than Dook and even Wake to heading for the top of the conference. Like you, I saw it happen.

That kind of coach, as opposed to simply a triple option coach, is likely to be the best option. A coach who is truly demands fundamentals from his players, and who is a master of Xs and Os, who knows how to develop talent (starting and ending with fundamentals and self-discipline), how to mold teams composed of lesser measurable talent into teams that are better than a clear majority of foes with more measurable talent.

Welsh did that. He won 2 ACC championships, and before his arrival, talk of UV with so much as 3 consecutive 6-Win teams was a very bad joke.

Of course, I think UNC football is capable of more than Welsh delivered.

I think the triple option works best, by far, when it is rarely faced. GT means that UNC with the same basic offense would be rather common in the ACC, and common as dirt in the Coastal.

Mike Leach also wins with lesser talent and develops players most other wining coaches reject, and he is a master of Xs and Os. He does it with a passing offense that will please far more UNC fans than will any triple option.

And Leach has an IQ at least equal to the average UNC professor - which probably scares the crap out of them.

 

[Xlance]

Woad, we are in a position where we are having to start over. Fedora has never used his personnel to the best of their abilities, he only used what he had to suit his ideas.
We need to mend fences with high school coaches, fans (alumni and t-shirt) and unfortunately the faculty/administration.
We need to win. It really does not matter what it looks like, but we need to win. And if we can win and not take too much shine off of the basketball program, that is even better.
Fundamentals, discipline, the ability to use the talents of the players on hand, a good understanding of Xs and Os, and someone who can win is exactly what Carolina football needs.

Army is poised to complete it's second ten win season in a row.

 

[tarheel0910]

Army is poised to complete it's second ten win season in a row

Johnson had similar results at multiple lower level schools. He's proven to be an average coach at best on this level. GT fans despise his system as well. Your love of 1960's football is blinding you.

 

[midline]

I would live to see them grab Leach. Anybody that can win big in Lubbock, TX., and Pullman, Wash, could surely put some wins up in Chapel Hill. But he is a but hard to handle from an administrative level and just think the folks in the ivory tower wants someone a little more buttoned up than a Leach type.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

I would live to see them grab Leach. Anybody that can win big in Lubbock, TX., and Pullman, Wash, could surely put some wins up in Chapel Hill. But he is a but hard to handle from an administrative level and just think the folks in the ivory tower wants someone a little more buttoned up than a Leach type.

Bingo. Leech is too “wild” for UNC brass. He’d be a helluva coach for us to get in our current situation.

 

[uncboy10]

This "administration sabotaging football" narrative needs to die. This shit has gotten old. It's a baseless conspiracy theory.

 

[Xlance]

Johnson had similar results at multiple lower level schools. He's proven to be an average coach at best on this level. GT fans despise his system as well. Your love of 1960's football is blinding you.

Just what are your expectations?
The home run hire to compare to would be Dabo (.787)

Look at Carolina's most successful coaches careers:
Dooley .558 lifetime, .565 at Carolina
Crum .593 lifetime, .634 at Carolina
Brown .670 lifetime, .599 at Carolina

Paul Johnson .593 lifetime
Jeff Monken .642 lifetime

Carolina won't be making a .700+ hire. First we won't pay the freight and run the risk of upsetting the basketball program, and second, after Butch the administration won't believe that anyone could be that successful without "help".

I want a winning program. One that will make alumni proud of the players we put on the field and the administration tolerant of a successful program.
Most of all, I want o win. I don't care what it looks like, I just want to win. I want to beat State, Dook and UVa every year, I want to compete for the division every year. I want to be able to make the championship game on a regular basis and play in a better than average bowl game every year.
You can pick or plot your path to get there, I have picked mine, which I believe would be acceptable to the University's PTB.
Most of all I want to win on a regular basis.
If you can build a better mousetrap that will satisfy all concerned....I'm listening.

 

[tarheel0910]

Just what are your expectations?
The home run hire to compare to would be Dabo (.787)

I've said multiple times the next hire should be the guy that gets us to the guy. Someone who rights the ship, so we can get a better coach.

Paul Johnson .593 lifetime
Jeff Monken .642 lifetime

So you're proving my point about the triple option not working well at this level and Johnson is average at best. Thanks.

First we won't pay the freight and run the risk of upsetting the basketball program,

This is a dumb statement.

I want a winning program. One that will make alumni proud of the players we put on the field and the administration tolerant of a successful program.
Most of all, I want o win. I don't care what it looks like, I just want to win. I want to beat State, Dook and UVa every year, I want to compete for the division every year. I want to be able to make the championship game on a regular basis and play in a better than average bowl game every year.

Johnson doesn't do any of that on a regular basis. The triple option isn't made for big boy football. It's just not a winning formula over the long term.

I have picked mine, which I believe would be acceptable to the University's PTB.

I seriously doubt it will. These people aren't putting up $12 million to hire someone with a ceiling of 7 wins.

 

[blazers]

Paul Johnson would hate to have another triple option in the acc since it gives teams more practice for that type of gm. So monken might not want to be in the same league as Paul johnson.

 

[Xlance]

I've said multiple times the next hire should be the guy that gets us to the guy. Someone who rights the ship, so we can get a better coach.


So you're proving my point about the triple option not working well at this level and Johnson is average at best. Thanks.


This is a dumb statement.


Johnson doesn't do any of that on a regular basis. The triple option isn't made for big boy football. It's just not a winning formula over the long term.


I seriously doubt it will. These people aren't putting up $12 million to hire someone with a ceiling of 7 wins.

Look at Carolina's most successful coaches careers:
Dooley .558 lifetime, .565 at Carolina
Crum .593 lifetime, .634 at Carolina
Brown .670 lifetime, .599 at Carolina

 

[tarheel0910]

Look at Carolina's most successful coaches careers:
Dooley .558 lifetime, .565 at Carolina
Crum .593 lifetime, .634 at Carolina
Brown .670 lifetime, .599 at Carolina

Brown's record is better than that number on the surface. He had us on an upward trajectory to becoming a top ten program. But what exactly is your point with these numbers?

 

[midline]

Some folks refer to the "Dabo" hire as some stroke of genius on Clemson's behalf. Far from it. Dabo performed satisfactorily in his term as interim. Basically beating South Carolina that year to secure the job. He said the right things in his normal cheerleader fashion during the interim that pleased the fans. And at that point, he was cheap. Clemson didn't want to spend the major bucks at that point for a big name. It has worked out great, but hardly anyone saw him being what he has become when he was officially hired. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than be good. This is exactly what happened at Clemson as Dabo was on nobody's radar as a potential head coach.

 

[WoadBlue]

This "administration sabotaging football" narrative needs to die. This shit has gotten old. It's a baseless conspiracy theory.

For that to happen, you first have to rewrite history so that faculty members did not use the Daily Tar Heel to attack the hiring of Jim Tatum.

 

[uncboy10]

For that to happen, you first have to rewrite history so that faculty members did not use the Daily Tar Heel to attack the hiring of Jim Tatum.

That's absurd. Some faculty members not liking Tatum does not prove a grand conspiracy to hold back the football program. Maybe they just wanted the football program to be successful but with a different coach...

 

[AncientTarheel]

Honest question, although I think I know what the answer will be from many. I don't want to assume I know what others' opinions will be.
Suppose a coach could be found who would be good (by which I mean competitive in most games) most years and very good (competing at the top of the division/conference) in the years when he has a lot of juniors, seniors, and 5th year seniors. In other words, players who have come up through his system, know what to do, and whose skills are used intelligently. Suppose further that these players, at least as upper classmen, are well-disciplined and play smart football, as well as doing well in class and graduating at a high rate. Finally, assume that the faculty and administration would be happy with this arrangement (or enough of them ). Would we (football fans) be happy? Is there a compromise ti be had?

 

[skubby12002]

Conspiracy theory? UNC allowed the NCAA to punish us for 10 years...The only sport that was hurt? Football. UNC does not want a good football program. Truth. UNC hired torbush, withers, and bunting. How can you say football is remotely taken seriously at UNC chapel hill???

 

[tarheel0910]

Conspiracy theory? UNC allowed the NCAA to punish us for 10 years...The only sport that was hurt? Football. UNC does not want a good football program. Truth. UNC hired torbush, withers, and bunting. How can you say football is remotely taken seriously at UNC chapel hill???

There's so much wrong with your post I'm not sure where to begin.

 

[WoadBlue]

That's absurd. Some faculty members not liking Tatum does not prove a grand conspiracy to hold back the football program. Maybe they just wanted the football program to be successful but with a different coach...

Sure. After all, he was a UNC All-American, who has been an Honor Roll student. He was uncle to Heisman winner Doc Blanchard (who because of Tatum was a freshman at UNC before the Army decided Blanchard would go to West Point for the war effort). There were so many obvious reasons for a number of faculty members to oppose the hiring of Tatum, as they had been publicly denouncing the 'professionalism' of college sports for more than a decade, placing all that denouncing on football, that it is nuts to think it might have been about opposing what we may call Big Time football.

 

[WoadBlue]

There's so much wrong with your post I'm not sure where to begin.

Well, get started.

You might note that the only coach fired was Butch, though women's basketball had the highest % of players who took the AFAM classes and men's basketball had the 2nd highest %. Noting that means you must note the war on Butch waged from his hiring by Art Chansky (who has been a tight insider of the basketball program for 40 years) and more than a few faculty.

 

[tarheel0910]

Well, get started.

You might note that the only coach fired was Butch, though women's basketball had the highest % of players who took the AFAM classes and men's basketball had the 2nd highest %. Noting that means you must note the war on Butch waged from his hiring by Art Chansky (who has been a tight insider of the basketball program for 40 years) and more than a few faculty.

You might note there were two investigations. Black Santa got Butch fired. AFAM wasn't the reason.

 

[tarheel0910]

they had been publicly denouncing the 'professionalism' of college sports for more than a decade, placing all that denouncing on football, that it is nuts to think it might have been about opposing what we may call Big Time football

This happens on almost every campus. There are always academic people who don't like college athletics. It's not unique to unc.

 

[WoadBlue]

Honest question, although I think I know what the answer will be from many. I don't want to assume I know what others' opinions will be.
Suppose a coach could be found who would be good (by which I mean competitive in most games) most years and very good (competing at the top of the division/conference) in the years when he has a lot of juniors, seniors, and 5th year seniors. In other words, players who have come up through his system, know what to do, and whose skills are used intelligently. Suppose further that these players, at least as upper classmen, are well-disciplined and play smart football, as well as doing well in class and graduating at a high rate. Finally, assume that the faculty and administration would be happy with this arrangement (or enough of them ). Would we (football fans) be happy? Is there a compromise ti be had?

Suppose? As they say, if wishes were changes, we'd all live in roses.

Over the years, I have come to realize exactly what Crum meant when he said that at UNC they expect you to be Harvard Monday through Friday. That part of the statement means that the administration and faculty Powers That Be would prefer that UNC football be like Harvard football: handcuffed, whether by no scholarships or other things. But handcuffed, so that it cannot ever win the way other Elite universities win.

Crum was from OH and coached at Miami of OH before coming to UNC. He knew all about Michigan football, just to stick to a state school, as well as Ohio St. So he found the attitude that predominated at UNC very strange. What he expected was that UNC would want to be the Michigan of the South, but what he found was that Harvard through the week problem. And if the admin and faculty demand Harvard Monday through Friday, there is no chance you can be OU or Bama or Texas or Nebraska or Michigan on Saturday.

I have asserted for a very long time that Fedora is a mediocre coach, and that can never satisfy me - not in any sport. What you describe sounds an awful lot like accepting mediocrity, as long as the team while losing does not seem to be so stupid on the field game after game like Fedora's teams.

Would UNC basketball fans accept that? I would not.

The very fact that people like you ask such things is more than an indication that deep down you know how true our charges are.

There are ways to get football fans excited with optimism and keep the admin and faculty tolerant, if they become less inflexible. I am not joking when I say that Mike Leach has an IQ that is at least as high as that of the average UNC professor. And Leach has a very long history of winning against the odds of recruiting 5*s and high 4*s, the majority of whom have no shot to get admitted to UNC even with lowered standards for sports admission. Leach has a history of promoting really smart players, such as walk-on Lincoln Riley, as both players and future post-grad students (Leach has a JD) and future coaches. At UNC, Leach could draw the kind of smarter than average 1A football players that Notre Dame and Stanford do. And he could be in the hunt for the Coastal title most years.

And fans would buy tickets.

But the UNC anti-Big Time football administrators and faculty hate the Mike Leaches as much as they hate the Barry Switzers. They hate the possibility that UNC football could become something like Notre Dame as much as they hate the possibility of UNC football ever becoming another SEC-type football factory.

They hate the very possibility of UNC football ever becoming a consistent Winner - not winning 6 or 7 games every year, which is mediocre, but winning the ACC a couple of times per decade with of a National Championship.

Compromise with such people means they win, because the result must be mediocre football tolerated.

 

[TarHeelMark]

Sometimes it is better to be lucky than be good.

True. IMO, UNC got lucky when they hired Mack. He was 6-5 @ ASU, and 11-23 @ Tulane. And didn’t look to be worth keeping after his first two seasons at chapel hill.

Now.... if only Dickie B had hired a real coach to replace Brown...

 

[Xlance]

Honest question, although I think I know what the answer will be from many. I don't want to assume I know what others' opinions will be.
Suppose a coach could be found who would be good (by which I mean competitive in most games) most years and very good (competing at the top of the division/conference) in the years when he has a lot of juniors, seniors, and 5th year seniors. In other words, players who have come up through his system, know what to do, and whose skills are used intelligently. Suppose further that these players, at least as upper classmen, are well-disciplined and play smart football, as well as doing well in class and graduating at a high rate. Finally, assume that the faculty and administration would be happy with this arrangement (or enough of them ). Would we (football fans) be happy? Is there a compromise ti be had?

If Woad is correct, and he generally is, the administration is never going to allow Carolina to become an Alabama or Oklahoma.
The situation you describe would be acceptable to me as a long term Carolina football fan and Rams Club contributor.

 

[Xlance]

You might note there were two investigations. Black Santa got Butch fired. AFAM wasn't the reason.

Getting rid of Butch was Thorp's attempt to place all of the blame of AFAM on the football program and he had approval from "above".
It's interesting that Tom Ross was willing to accept the Wainstein Report as the gospel truth before he even saw it. If you could successfully trace AFAM it would more than likely would lead to a state official elect's office in 1992 and his efforts to achieve national political office.

 

[tarheel0910]

Getting rid of Butch was Thorp's attempt to place all of the blame of AFAM on the football program and he had approval from "above".
It's interesting that Tom Ross was willing to accept the Wainstein Report as the gospel truth before he even saw it. If you could successfully trace AFAM it would more than likely would lead to a state official elect's office in 1992 and his efforts to achieve national political office.

Ok sport. Believe what you want to believe.

 

[Xlance]

Ok sport. Believe what you want to believe.

It's obvious that you talk a lot and know very little.

 

[tarheel0910]

It's obvious that you talk a lot and know very little.

LOL. Your football takes are some of the worst on this board. Listen, I'm not going to continue arguing with you about this. People who are paranoid and believe in conspiracy theories are never going to change their mind. You can show them facts and try to reason with them, but their life is too connected to it. People like to feel good and conspiracy theories can help with that.

 

[WoadBlue]

If Woad is correct, and he generally is, the administration is never going to allow Carolina to become an Alabama or Oklahoma.
The situation you describe would be acceptable to me as a long term Carolina football fan and Rams Club contributor.

XLance's opening assertion is made because we go way back on internet discussions, and on boards other than just Rivals and Scout. And XLance has been part of discussions in which I was seen by most people as a kook and proven correct over time. For example, I knew, and said repeatedly, that the ACC was going to expand to 12 with Miami as the key piece starting at the close of 1998. In 1999 I began asserting that VT would be part of the ACC expansion to 12. I began asserting that ND would be part of the ACC in 2002. I said at the same time that ND part of the ACC would mean Pitt in the ACC. By 2006, I was asserting that the Big Ten feared the ACC, especially because of ND, and would act to try to harm the ACC. By 2007, I knew that such BT action would feature going after Rutgers to try to 'control' NYC.

Outside the ACC, I began predicting in 2004 that the Big 12 would fracture because of the growing resentment of Nebraska.

I have a long history of being the kook who turns out to have seen it coming well before almost anybody else. Fedora is just another example.

And, NO, the UNC admin will not allow UNC to be Bama or OU in football. But if forced it might be on board with trying to have a program that recreates what Harbaugh built at Stanford.

'Force' is the operative word.

 

[WoadBlue]

LOL. Your football takes are some of the worst on this board. Listen, I'm not going to continue arguing with you about this. People who are paranoid and believe in conspiracy theories are never going to change their mind. You can show them facts and try to reason with them, but their life is too connected to it. People like to feel good and conspiracy theories can help with that.

I don't agree with him that triple option is best for UNC, and wouldn't even if Johnson weren't at GT. But XLance knows ACC and UNC football very well. Like me, he has seen the patterns at UNC. It is no secret conspiracy. Daily TarHeel editor Charles Kuralt's most widely discussed editorial was a call for UNC to literally become the Harvard of the South by dropping all athletic scholarships, and Kuralt was confident that the UNC administration was then already perhaps halfway to such a position in regard to football.

That's the reason that UNC allowed Tatum's successor, Jim Hickey, to have 4 consecutive non-winning seasons (a pair of 5-5s and a pair of 3-7s) with no real threat of a firing. Hickey finally had an excellent team for his 5th, which was followed by 5-5, 4-6, and 2-8 before he was fired. If UNC football boosters had not threatened to end all financial support for all UNC athletics, Hickey would have been kept for at least 1 more losing team. An the same threats were necessary to force the admin to hire 'an SEC guy.'

Why specifically did the UNC admin love Hickey so much? Tatum brought him in from Hampden-Sydney, where he had coached what in our terms today would be D3, non-scholarship football. And Hickey was well known for talking about the glories of truly amateur football.

Art Chansky would keep Fedora for 2020 even if in 2019 we again have a losing team. And Chansky speaks for the hardcore basketball side of the long time UNC aversion to anything approximating Big Time winning football.

 

[WoadBlue]

Paul Johnson would hate to have another triple option in the acc since it gives teams more practice for that type of gm. So monken might not want to be in the same league as Paul johnson.

Perhaps so. He might be thinking that his act would fly very well at Vandy, or at Kansas. Being the only triple option team in a conference is an advantage because of how DCs must alter what they do normally to face the triple option.

 

[midline]

An above poster referred to the intellect of Mike Leach being the equal of professors at UNC. The would be wrong. Leach is smarter than the majority of professors at UNC. And as we all know, sometimes the genius types can be quirky in their methods, and personality. Leach certainly fits that category. Great coach. Would live to see him in Chapel Hill. But just don't the powers that be wanting to hire someone who is doesn't give one crap about what his superiors may think.

 

[ticket2ride04]

Getting rid of Butch was Thorp's attempt to place all of the blame of AFAM on the football program and he had approval from "above".
It's interesting that Tom Ross was willing to accept the Wainstein Report as the gospel truth before he even saw it. If you could successfully trace AFAM it would more than likely would lead to a state official elect's office in 1992 and his efforts to achieve national political office.

You are confused, Skippy. AFAM wasn’t a thing with Butch. He was fired for Little, Austin, Quinn, and bringing the ncaa crashing down. Quinn is disassociated with the school. We have up wins. Bowl ban. 15 scholarships lost.

 

[midline]

Butch took the chance to bring in "Black Santa". You live on that edge, things can easily go bad

 

[ticket2ride04]

Butch took the chance to bring in "Black Santa". You live on that edge, things can easily go bad

What are you trying to say here? His rep was well-known.

 

[midline]

Of course his reputation was well known, and that was the chance that Butch decided to take.