That was really low, too. There should have NEVER been a hesitation to fly them at half-mast! It should have been instinctive. They should have come down immediately.
5th serviceman passed away
- Thread starter Grayhead
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Emphasis mine.
Nobody is saying the Islamic faith necessarily results in terrorist acts. They're simply saying there's a strong relationship between the two. It's the difference between causation and correlation, and the correlation has been pretty damning.
Really? Nobody is saying that? That's not what I'm getting. Sure, there is a correlation. Their religious motivations, from what I can tell, are misguided. All I see is focus and emphasis on the religion of Islam, not that the people who are acting violently are NOT representative of the doctrines of Islamic faith.
"It's hard not to harbor resentment towards a religion that produces these kinds of people." I don't see a lot of evidence of a struggle between correlation and causation there. But, I'll take your word for it.
Not a single OOTB resident thinks that ALL Muslims are terrorists, killers, etc. You are flat-out wrong.
As far as the rest of your post, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Do I blame all of Christianity for certain atrocities? No. But I do blame some Southern Baptists (and the Nation of Islam) for fostering a culture of racism, the Catholic Church for sex abusing priests, Westboro for many things, etc.
Certain sects of Islam strongly encourage terrorism and their followers take heed. To state otherwise is the height of ignorance.
I agree that certain sects of all of the religions are WAY off-kilter and are encouraging this crap! But, I just don't think those sects define the religion, or even represent it accurately. That's why you see other members of the religion denouncing it.
When I see a quote that says "It's hard to not harbor resentment toward a religion that produces people like this", my reaction is "It's not the religion, it's the people."
Hard to believe after 9-11 and ALL the other attacks ANY American would make excuses for that crowd! smh
If members of the kkk decide on violencethen naturally most will condemn them,especially the church. Many in this country take that mindset seriously. I would assume that the violent acts by the kkk has went down since the time period you stated.
I would like to know if the link provided concerning the kkk protest in Charleston who instigated the violence.
I would like to know if the link provided concerning the kkk protest in Charleston who instigated the violence.
No one says that those sects define the religion. You have to quit being so absolute about everything- no one else is.
With Islam however, it is rare that any official entity, be it a government or high ranking cleric, speaks out against terrorists or extremists and in many cases, terrorists/extremists operate with tacit approval from Islamic governments. There would undoubtedly be much more willingness to accept normal Muslims if the normal Muslims would actually take measures to control or at least publically disapprove of their own.
If contemporary and peace loving Muslims want to show that their religion is not responsible for "people like this", then they need to be a bit more vehement in their disapproval of "people like this".
ETA: I am mainly referring to the governments and their lack of action in stopping extremists.
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http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2015/07/17/30302017/
http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...nity-reaction--chattanooga-shooting/30264855/
http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2015/07/huntsville_eid_2015.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/suhaib-webb-chattanooga_55a83997e4b0896514d0e500
http://www.news10.net/videos/news/local/sacramento/2015/07/17/30281817/
http://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/n...shooting-as-fbi-probe-middle-east-connection/
There are people who denounce this... openly and blatantly. I stopped at 6 links, but could have linked more.
I guess they aren't vehement enough. I doubt it would matter how many spoke out.
http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...nity-reaction--chattanooga-shooting/30264855/
http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2015/07/huntsville_eid_2015.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/suhaib-webb-chattanooga_55a83997e4b0896514d0e500
http://www.news10.net/videos/news/local/sacramento/2015/07/17/30281817/
http://www.peoplespunditdaily.com/n...shooting-as-fbi-probe-middle-east-connection/
There are people who denounce this... openly and blatantly. I stopped at 6 links, but could have linked more.
I guess they aren't vehement enough. I doubt it would matter how many spoke out.
Here's an interesting quote from one of your articles:
"I don't know this guy (Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez), or what his motives were," Abdelmoneim said. "But these actions present a challenge for us as (Muslim) leaders to work hard with our children to teach them the true, moderate ideology of our religion, and to teach them what we should do."
Why is it a challenge to teach the moderate ideology? Why does this require hard work?
"I don't know this guy (Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez), or what his motives were," Abdelmoneim said. "But these actions present a challenge for us as (Muslim) leaders to work hard with our children to teach them the true, moderate ideology of our religion, and to teach them what we should do."
Why is it a challenge to teach the moderate ideology? Why does this require hard work?
Well, they all seem to have really long names that are hard to pronounce. That's a challenge in itself.
You'd need to ask them why, I guess. At least he didn't say "We gave up trying to teach them properly, and said 'Do whatever you like, I don't care!' " Maybe the kids see these violent rogues like the boys of the late 19th century saw outlaws like Billy The Kid out west, or young kids of the Depression era that were drawn to criminals like John Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde. I can only speculate. But, I still know that what I have read of the Qu'ran, and what I have learned from people I trust that are Muslim, that Islam does not teach people to go out and murder innocent victims.
It is a problem we all face. Having to deal with these radicals is a challenge for everyone. I just believe it helps to properly identify the culprit(s) when these events occur. Hold the people that do it accountable. If they belong to some violent sub-religious group, then ostracize them, and be wary of them. Referring to "Islam" as the culprit is incorrect. When you do that continuously, you'll wind up incriminating people that have done absolutely nothing.
Interesting news out of the United Kingdom yesterday. Prime Minister David Cameron announced a strategy for combating Islamic extremism. One of the tenets of Cameron's plan is to "embolden the Muslim community" by encouraging "moderate Muslim voices to speak up and provide a platform."
It does make you wonder. Why don't we hear more moderate Muslim perspectives in the news? Seems like the only time we do hear from them is when the media is seeking condemnation of another act of extremism. That's what all of strum's links are. You have to imagine moderate Muslims are beyond frustrated with the portrayal of their religion, which is being defined by its worst elements.
It does make you wonder. Why don't we hear more moderate Muslim perspectives in the news? Seems like the only time we do hear from them is when the media is seeking condemnation of another act of extremism. That's what all of strum's links are. You have to imagine moderate Muslims are beyond frustrated with the portrayal of their religion, which is being defined by its worst elements.
In the news? Come on, RH. It's not very good for business.
Look at the resources that are over there that the whole world would love to have. Look at how much American leadership and industry have invested in that part of the world for the last 30-40 years or more. It's better to keep any disgruntlement from the majority of Muslims (here and abroad) on the extreme down-low. If most Judeo-Christian Americans (and western cultures, in general) maintain the status quo of "Islam is our enemy" then most any move that is made over by our leadership/corporate-interest will be met with little social obstruction or dissent.
Of course, if the violent extremist nuts would just stop (or significantly draw back) their acts of violence and terror, then the peaceful Muslims wouldn't be needed to have any critical commentary or disdain. I don't wonder why the news doesn't report the peaceful Muslims dislike. I wonder why the majority of Muslims don't do more to vilify these violent sub-groups and dilute their appeal and influence. No one is forcing them to subjugate, just stop violently murdering innocent people. Maybe they are trying to quell those aspects and THAT isn't being reported either.
It is clear that most of these groups that claim to condemn these acts are really more concerned with the backlash their community may receive rather than the act itself.
Gees, man this is not difficult. Why does something that is not occurring need to be denounced? If they were actively doing it, I and many others would certainly think it was wrong. BUT THEY ARE NOT DOING IT. Radical Islam IS KILLING PEOPLE NOW.
Because the unhinged Muslims scream Allahu Akbar as they are killing people. That's pretty clear to me, and anyone with a functioning cerebral cortex.
Oh come on. For starters, that's a sweeping generalization. Also, you'll have to forgive me for not believing some random non-Muslim on a sports message board has his finger on the pulse of the Muslim community.
Starting that post with "It is my opinion" rather than "It is clear" would've been more accurate.
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At first I thought you were talking about the news business, in which case I would've agreed. But you were talking about oil/war profiteering, which makes your post sound awfully cynical. Can't say you're wrong, though.
Either works. I hadn't considered the news industry, but it's definitely good for their business.
Let me rephrase then. It is clear to me [re-insert the rest of my post here].
And I agree, I am not an authority on Muslim communities. And in that context I am probably the same as 99% of posters here.
If a "moderate Muslim community" actually exists, why doesn't it speak up?!?!?! Why don't they do more to prevent their community from joining ISIS?!?! Are they intimidated by the RADICAL elements in their midst?!?! Don't know, but I suspect they are just as intimidated as the "law-biding Italian citizens" were when the mafioso was rising in places like NY and Chicago in the early 20th century... Godfather II... Great movie...
Sure, it's possible. That's why I responded. It's somewhat complex, too. Depending on where these people are living, it may be less likely that they could say anything at all. As I showed you, there are many here in the States who are very vocal about their dislike for what is being done. They might not be as inclined back in parts of the Middle East for fear of being eliminated or hurt, or who knows what. That would reflect the scenario in Nuk's analogy, like Little Italy in NY City. But, just because they cannot speak out doesn't make them complicit with the acts of terror.
I'm not defending or excusing the acts of terror at all. I never have. Quite the opposite. I just believe it's wrong to blame the religion or blame all Muslims, in general. I see that being done or implied far too often.
If you're deranged enough, you can be inspired to murder people from reading Winnie The Pooh. These deranged individuals, and their sub-groups are the sole culprits, not the entire Muslim population or the religion itself. I think it's important to keep them separate is all.
How would be the best method to deal with the fanatical? Other than going to his house and removing the threat, I don't think diplomacy would work. And by going to their house, you just add fuel to the fire. I really feel there will be a constant supply of Muslim fanatics till the end of time.
Interesting.
So given that the moderates are being terrorized and fear for their lives in their own homes, should we do anything to help them and if so, what?
They aren't being terrorized or muzzled here.
Sending troops in and trying to change countries by force is part of the reason we're in this situation. Should we do "anything?" No. Should we try and do SOMETHING? Sure, there are things that we, as a basically free society, should try to consider that could be effective. I don't think doing what has only made things worse is the way to go. 30 years ago there was no ISIS or Al Qaeda.
I like that this thread has turned into a reasonable discussion. Yay OOTB.
There's the rub. And since we're not just going to up and leave, it creates a cycle of violence. Never mind environmentalism...we should eliminate our dependence on foreign oil just to get the heck out of the Middle East.
That would be very helpful, too. But, here is where we run into a conflict with our own government. When you say "we should eliminate..." the rest of the "we" here in the discussion will agree. The problem is, the business interest over here that have a invested untold billions in that foreign oil resource are not about to stop telling politicians that Islam is evil and Muslims are our enemies so they can keep that cash register ka-chinging. Not to mention the foreign leaders that are invested in OUR businesses and use their oil influence.
Then, there is the factor of the US Dollar being used as the currency that ME oil is bought and sold through. Without that, our economy might go straight into the toilet much faster than it is now. Our monetary system is really something that is in more need of addressing than the oil dependency. Our entire monetary system is literally monetized debt. So, there is really no easy way out of this at all. There's a lot of complicit entities here and I don't see any willing to budge very much, if any.
Innocent people (terror and murdered people here and abroad), as well as innocent civilians are the victims as always. I honestly don't see much potential for improvement using traditional government/political means. What we could do, as individuals, is really take time to go and meet and get to know Muslims near us. Once we have an identity with Muslims, then they are no longer the sub-human villains portrayed on TV news, and much easier to separate from those who are actually committing acts of terror.
ETA: There's also the fact that a great deal of our economy lies in war material production and use! It's sad but true
Ohhh, ok, I'm starting to get you. You think the main problem is the way we view muslims. I think the main problem is that radical muslims are killing people all around the world in the name of Islam. I have no interest in solving your problem. That's me being honest. I'm sorry for the peaceful muslims. I really am. But there are far bigger problems to be dealt with. IMO, those peaceful muslims should come meet us...and jump on board with our attempts to eradicate the radical sects. There's no better way for them to show they don't support the radical ideas than to help eliminate them. Once there are no more radical muslims killing innocent people in the name of Islam, then I might have a block party for all the peaceful muslims in my community. Until then, their feelings will have to wait.
If that's true, then your visitations won't amount to a hill of beans. And if nothing we do can make a difference, then we ultimately have to choose sides. I know whose side I'm on. You?
So what should be done?
Note- this is the part in the program where you DONT rail against the war machine, parties in power, trilateral commission, etc. We already know what you think shouldn't happen. Now tell us what should happen.
I got 5 bucks that says he is on no one's side because choosing sides is exactly what "they" want you to do.
"They" = Haliburton, Arab sheiks, Republicans, Democrats, bankers, Wall Street, and probably a few others I am forgetting.
No... that is not what I think the "main problem is" at all. There is no "main problem" in this. There's a multitude of problems. The ideal solution would be to eradicate the violent, murder-prone Muslims.
Actually, you're right. Let's just keep sending troops, occupying their land and blowing up the place. You've made me see the light. Do I get your 5 bucks?
