National Anthem Question

[heelbent]

Heelbent "knew" I would ignore his questions. Until he didn't KNOW and deleted his post.

You're correct. You posted your reply just as I posted mine, so I "spoke" too soon. I actually deleted my post before I realized you had responded. As a Mod I didn't want to seem to be picking on you because we differ in our opinions or beliefs.

And JFTR...I realize it seems we are piling on, but I'm actually really interested in your opinion here.

 

[strummingram]

So when Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light. NO ONE comes unto the Father but through Me" he was lying?

I dunno, was he? If you think that God only communicates to the human race, and all life, through a book written by men 2000+ years ago, then I guess you're stuck with that. That is why it is so difficlt trying to discuss this with religious people. they ONLY recognize God through their religion's filter. It's very limiting.

I must infer from your post that you lend no supernatural attributes to Jesus.

Supernatural? That sounds like mythology. I don't think Jesus was "supernatural" at all. I think Jesus was very, very Natural! And, so are we. "Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" and "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these..." I guess the difference is, I don't interpret that to mean "Me" in the literal sense. I interpret that to mean believes in yourself and God and your limitless abilities if you just be true to your soul and BELIEVE it.

That you do not accept Him as the one and only son of God nor His part in the Holy Trinity. That you give no credence to the Virgin Birth or that Jesus has the power to forgive sin. That we all can simply save ourselves by living a good, decent life.

Am I wrong in any of that?

I think we are all part of that Trinity. But, to the specifics of the religious doctrine you follow, as being supreme over the rest of the religious doctrines (which are all similar, but originate from different locations)? No, I don't believe that ONLY Christians are given eternal life. I believe that every, single, one of us is eternal. We always have been and always will be... life without end. We are all Jesus if we want to be. I believe Jesus was the Son of God just like I believe YOU were, and are! Just like I am.

I'm not a follower of religion. I don't limit my understanding of God through ONE religion. I follow my Soul and how God speaks to me through my soul. I feel compelled to use Scripture(s) when God tells me to, r when my Soul feels I need to. Just like everyone else! I don't acknowledge God through a religious filter only, however. Or, I try not to as much as possible. Religion offends me, sometimes. It has tricked people, with good intentions maybe, into believing that we need the religion to "get to God." The truth is, we have never been apart from God. I don't think many people realize how much they worship their religion when they think they are worshiping God. First of all, God does not "need to be worshiped." God just IS! The need to be worshiped sounds like something people require and crave... not God.

 

[tarheel0910]

Me reading this thread

 

[heelbent]

I dunno, was he? If you think that God only communicates to the human race, and all life, through a book written by men 2000+ years ago, then I guess you're stuck with that. That is why it is so difficlt trying to discuss this with religious people. they ONLY recognize God through their religion's filter. It's very limiting.


Supernatural? That sounds like mythology. I don't think Jesus was "supernatural" at all. I think Jesus was very, very Natural! And, so are we. "Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" and "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these..." I guess the difference is, I don't interpret that to mean "Me" in the literal sense. I interpret that to mean believes in yourself and God and your limitless abilities if you just be true to your soul and BELIEVE it.


I think we are all part of that Trinity. But, to the specifics of the religious doctrine you follow, as being supreme over the rest of the religious doctrines (which are all similar, but originate from different locations)? No, I don't believe that ONLY Christians are given eternal life. I believe that every, single, one of us is eternal. We always have been and always will be... life without end. We are all Jesus if we want to be. I believe Jesus was the Son of God just like I believe YOU were, and are! Just like I am.

I'm not a follower of religion. I don't limit my understanding of God through ONE religion. I follow my Soul and how God speaks to me through my soul. I feel compelled to use Scripture(s) when God tells me to, r when my Soul feels I need to. Just like everyone else! I don't acknowledge God through a religious filter only, however. Or, I try not to as much as possible. Religion offends me, sometimes. It has tricked people, with good intentions maybe, into believing that we need the religion to "get to God." The truth is, we have never been apart from God. I don't think many people realize how much they worship their religion when they think they are worshiping God. First of all, God does not "need to be worshiped." God just IS! The need to be worshiped sounds like something people require and crave... not God.

In 1983 I was involved in a life changing event. Up until that time I was the exact opposite of a "religious" person. I wasn't raised in church and knew very little about the Bible or Christianity at all. I didn't believe there was any kind of higher power essentially pulling my strings. My entire life, the way I view the world and my relationship with God took a very dramatic turn that day.

I would really like to share that with you...but I won't do it here. If you don't mind, and if you're at all interested, can I get your email address so that I can communicate that experience? I realize this sounds all so Jehova's Witness but it's personal and I don't want to discuss it on an open forum. Perhaps your perspective on that experience may be helpful to me...and just maybe what I have to say will even offer a little clarity to you. Who knows?

 

[strummingram]

Me reading this thread

No kidding. National Anthem to ... everywhere

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

By the way, do you identify as Christian?

I mean, if filling out a form that requires me to check a box, I guess I'll check that box as I was born into a (somewhat) Christian family. But I don't self-identify as a Christian anymore (although as previously stated I do believe in God, or a Supreme Being). But I guess I can't really call myself a Christian because I think there are so many stupid things that you have to believe in order to be a "full/pure Christian". Like your idiotic notion of turning the other cheek when you're harmed. I also think abortion is perfectly fine, as is having sex before you're married, and a slew of other things.

All people are equally sacred to God

This is another point we disagree on. I'm of the belief that everyone is equally sacred when they're first born - but God gave us free will to allow us to go down our own paths. Those that choose a bad path (such as masterminding the Holocaust, terrorism, etc.) then remove themselves from His sacred good graces. To say that God can't tell the difference between good people and bad people, or that he doesn't care if someone is good or bad, in my mind is calling God stupid.

 

[strummingram]

In 1983 I was involved in a life changing event. Up until that time I was the exact opposite of a "religious" person. I wasn't raised in church and knew very little about the Bible or Christianity at all. I didn't believe there was any kind of higher power essentially pulling my strings. My entire life, the way I view the world and my relationship with God took a very dramatic turn that day.

I would really like to share that with you...but I won't do it here. If you don't mind, and if you're at all interested, can I get your email address so that I can communicate that experience? I realize this sounds all so Jehova's Witness but it's personal and I don't want to discuss it on an open forum. Perhaps your perspective on that experience may be helpful to me...and just maybe what I have to say will even offer a little clarity to you. Who knows?

Sure, man. I'm definitely eager to hear about it! All doors are opened!

opengee@aol.com

 

[heelbent]

No kidding. National Anthem to ... everywhere

When we start down the broken path...

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

No kidding. I was trying to simplify the hypothetical exercise because chick kept dancing around without ever addressing the question.

I guess this counts as a kinda sorta answer. So basically, both of you would let millions perish rather than risk something that could be "harmful to your soul."

Well I do not believe they perished. I believe they were freed from the living hell they were in and went to a place where only love and peace reside.

 

[strummingram]

But I guess I can't really call myself a Christian because I think there are so many stupid things that you have to believe in order to be a "full/pure Christian". Like your idiotic notion of turning the other cheek when you're harmed. I also think abortion is perfectly fine, as is having sex before you're married, and a slew of other things.

I think you're probably doing yourself favor by NOT calling yourself a Christian, too. There's no real standard for being one was my point. I've heard people say "If you recognize Jesus as your Savior" etc., then you're a Christian. From my experience, every Christian is their own unique version of a what a Christian is... but the church needs a standard to keep getting donations and have some relevance to our society, I guess.

I'm of the belief that everyone is equally sacred when they're first born - but God gave us free will to allow us to go down our own paths. Those that choose a bad path (such as masterminding the Holocaust, terrorism, etc.) then remove themselves from His sacred good graces. To say that God can't tell the difference between good people and bad people, or that he doesn't care if someone is good or bad, in my mind is calling God stupid.

There is no good or bad, or right or wrong in the world of the absolute. Those only exist in our realm of consciousness- the relative. Choosing a bad path is totally relative. Everyone chooses the right path, or a good path, based on their world view. It's helpful to recognize that. Hitler did nothing "wrong" ... as he saw it. He was also given reinforcement by legions of people agreeing with him. It's hard to believe you're wrong when everyone tells you you're right. When the collective of humanity decides that people killing other people no longer serves them, then that activity will cease. We haven't decided that yet.

ETA:

God is not stupid. But, humans definitely can be. God does not recognize right or wrong... we do. Claiming God does the same thing is calling God stupid. You know how stupid "right" and "wrong" are? In Nevada, prostitution is "right." And, across the border it's "wrong." Talk about stupid!

 

[prlyles]

Do I think that if a person is Jewish, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Taoist, or Mormon, or atheist is denied eternal life because they don't believe exactly as the various Christian churches require their members to believe? Absolutely not. Religion mocks God as much as it tries to exalt God. Religion humanizes God. A great example is referring to God as a "He" in their texts. My God has no penis.

What makes you think Mormons are not Christian?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

There is no good or bad, or right or wrong in the world of the absolute. Those only exist in our realm of consciousness- the relative. Choosing a bad path is totally relative

Again, I disagree. While things that are much closer to the line of good/bad can be seen as either good or bad depending on your relative viewpoint - there are things that, at least in my opinion, God recognizes as a bad path. I believe that God would consider the paths that Adolf Hitler, Timothy McVeigh, and Charles Manson took to all be bad paths - regardless of whether they thought they were taking a good path or not. Think about it logically - if you say that God deems all people to be sacred, why would he be perfectly fine if someone ended hundreds/thousands/millions of those people's sacred lives? The logic breaks down there.

Everyone chooses the right path, or a good path, based on their world view.

I also don't agree with this. Yes, I'm sure several people that have taken what I would describe as a bad path, thought their path was right - but not all. If I were to go out and shoot/kill some stranger for the fun of it - I would be very aware that I was choosing a bad path.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Hark, God's requirements to be a Christ Follower are simple........................

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Religions are man made, Christ is coming back for HIS Church not the Baptist-Methodist-Catholics etc etc etcc.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I was sort of trying to sidestep this when I described the reasons I wouldn't exactly call myself a Christian - but I find believing in everything that is said about Jesus to be a much harder sell than simply believing in God. Do I think there was a guy named Jesus that probably had great morals and teachings and helped people as much as possible? Yes. Do I think he was born from a virgin, could perform miracles like turning water into wine or giving a blind man sight, and rose from the dead? I don't know.

And I don't think anyone knows, since no one alive today was around then, and the only "evidence" supporting those beliefs is a book that was written a couple thousand years ago, which again, no one can speak to the veracity of. I think it's possible, since what I believe to be God is definitely capable of creating Himself as a human, and powerful enough to perform the miracles I listed above.

I know there is a God because I see His work all around me everyday. I don't think the Atheist viewpoint of everything in the universe just appeared from nothing, without the assistance of a higher power, makes much sense. Even if the Big Bang Theory is accurate, I'm of the belief that the little spec that exploded into everything had to be created by something. I believe that God has/had a vision for the world, and prefers Good over Evil - although I'll admit that there's really no evidence for that - but it just seems more plausible than not that a God would prefer Good. Since there's also no evidence that Jesus was God, I also turn to the "which is more plausible" test - and to me it's more plausible that the miracles described in the Bible are more likely to be made up than to have occurred. But I'll admit they could have. And I don't think God would punish people for not believing that Jesus was Him, because he hasn't given people the proper amount of evidence to make that determination.

 

[heelz2345]

I know this turned into a whole God thing, but in the interest of trying to be on a national anthem note, here's a clip from Angels in the Outfield that relates.

 

[strummingram]

I would be very aware that I was choosing a bad path.

And, you're not aware that your "good paths" may be bad paths to other people. I was very clear that everyone makes these decisions based on THEIR WORLD VIEW.

 

[strummingram]

What makes you think Mormons are not Christian?

I was trying to give Mormons a unique billing. I think it was because most other Christians find the Joseph Smith addition to be a blasphemy. But, they can be Christians. Muslims recognize Jesus as an exalted Messenger of God, too.

 

[prlyles]

I was trying to give Mormons a unique billing. I think it was because most other Christians find the Joseph Smith addition to be a blasphemy. But, they can be Christians. Muslims recognize Jesus as an exalted Messenger of God, too.

I think the difference is Mormons consider him the son of God.

 

[heelz2345]

Based on the episode of South Park and the musical The Book of Mormon, I would say that Mormons do believe Jesus is the son of God, but they also believe that Jesus came over to America and various other things like that.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

And, you're not aware that your "good paths" may be bad paths to other people. I was very clear that everyone makes these decisions based on THEIR WORLD VIEW.

Sure. But there are certain things that are generally accepted as good and bad. There are some things that are on the line, for sure - like getting an abortion for instance may still fit with some people's "good path" and others may deem that to be going down a "bad path". The opinions on things such as that are probably close enough to 50-50 where you can make a case for that being relative. Even if it were anywhere between 20-80 and 80-20 I think you can make a case for it being relative.

Once you start getting farther out than that though, you begin getting into what can be considered absolutes, for all intents and purposes. I'd say that feeding/clothing/sheltering a stranger in need while expecting no compensation would be considered "good" by over 95% of the population. Same as how murdering thousands of kids for fun would be considered "bad" by over 95% of the population. Once you get into the realm that the vast majority of the world sees something as good or bad - its no longer relative.

 

[strummingram]

Sure. But there are certain things that are generally accepted as good and bad.

I agree. That is why killing people is still okay. We, collectively, find plenty of ways to justify it and accept it as a necessary action/behavior. Some people even consider killing certain people as a very good thing. Look at heelfan58! He sounded like he would take great pleasure in gutting people that he thinks deserve it. And, he's probably one of the milder examples of people who take pleasure in it. Of course, he could also be embellishing. But, some others aren't.

To me, that is why "laws" are almost superfluous. They're merely suggestions. You can even throw-in consequences for "law-breakers", but I think we behave- as a collective society- within the parameters of what you explained with the percentages. Once we all achieve the same thinking, then we act accordingly. But, still... none of it is "good" or "bad." It is more like what serves us and what doesn't serve us. Acceptable or unacceptable. But, that is closer to semantics. And, the acceptable behaviors (right and wrong) are always, ALWAYS changing. 200 years ago, it was perfectly acceptable for human beings to buy and sell (own) other human beings against their will. Now, that is absolutely insane to consider. I hope, one day, people feel the same about murdering one another.

 

[strummingram]

I think the difference is Mormons consider him the son of God.

Well... isn't that who Christ was? Mormons see Joseph Smith as the Son Of God? I don't wanna get too technical. It doesn't matter. They can worship a bowl of oatmeal if they want.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I hope, one day, people feel the same about murdering one another.

I think we're already at that point for 99%+ of the population. At least that everyone is born with the right to not be murdered. However, I think the large majority is also of the belief that it is possible to relinquish that right to not be murdered through your actions, if severe enough. Which yes, "severe enough" is a relative term. I'm sure there are people out there that think you relinquish your right to not be murdered by stealing. But they're in the minority. I think the large majority would say that you relinquish your right to not be murdered if you were to murder thousands of other people.

 

[strummingram]

I think the large majority would say that you relinquish your right to not be murdered if you were to murder thousands of other people.

Then we're obviously not at that point. I'm speaking of unconditional. Are there certain conditions where slavery is okay?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Then we're obviously not at that point. I'm speaking of unconditional. Are there certain conditions where slavery is okay?

Yes. I would say that if we found out that some guy had been keeping 100 slaves somewhere - then an appropriate punishment would be to have him then made a slave.

 

[strummingram]

Yes. I would say that if we found out that some guy had been keeping 100 slaves somewhere - then an appropriate punishment would be to have him then made a slave.

So, even slavery is okay. I spoke too soon. If we execute more people, people will stop murdering other people. It's been working so far.

 

[Archer2]

I agree. That is why killing people is still okay. We, collectively, find plenty of ways to justify it and accept it as a necessary action/behavior. Some people even consider killing certain people as a very good thing. Look at heelfan58! He sounded like he would take great pleasure in gutting people that he thinks deserve it. And, he's probably one of the milder examples of people who take pleasure in it. Of course, he could also be embellishing. But, some others aren't.

To me, that is why "laws" are almost superfluous. .

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

So, even slavery is okay. I spoke too soon. If we execute more people, people will stop murdering other people. It's been working so far.

It's a deterrent. Not a perfect one, I'll admit, but a deterrent nonetheless. I agree that it'd be awesome if we could just say "ok, no more killing, guys!" and have it happen. But that's an unrealistic fantasy. People who want to murder will be more likely to do so if they know they'll just get a "tsk tsk" in response.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Back to the point of this thread: Colin Kaepernick sat out the National Anthem last night, and then tweeted a picture of the American and Confederate flags and said something along the lines of, if you can't see that these two flags represent the same thing, you're an idiot.

 

[Archer2]

Back to the point of this thread: Colin Kaepernick sat out the National Anthem last night, and then tweeted a picture of the American and Confederate flags and said something along the lines of, if you can't see that these two flags represent the same thing, you're an idiot.

Yeah, 'cause we all know the President of the Confederacy was a black man. Like Bugs would say "what a maroon!".

 

[strummingram]

It's a deterrent. Not a perfect one, I'll admit, but a deterrent nonetheless. I agree that it'd be awesome if we could just say "ok, no more killing, guys!" and have it happen. But that's an unrealistic fantasy. People who want to murder will be more likely to do so if they know they'll just get a "tsk tsk" in response.

Killing people to deter people from killing each other is like eating brain tumors to cure stomach cancer. Or, breathing exhaust fumes to awaken from a coma.

 

[strummingram]

I can see why some people NEED a Hell. Apparently, they're unable to acknowledge and follow their own intuitive feelings of mutual respect for fellow human beings. They need the threat of punishment in order to treat others with the same measure they want to be treated. What's more; they're afraid that their fellow human beings lack that ability.

 

[UNC '92]

Killing people to deter people from killing each other is like eating brain tumors to cure stomach cancer. Or, breathing exhaust fumes to awaken from a coma.

Why would you want this on your conscience?

 

[UNC71-00]

Why would you want this on your conscience?

I don't know about the puppy but his poasts make me want to eat a box of sleeping pills and wash them down with a handle of Beam.

 

[strummingram]

I don't know about the puppy but his poasts make me want to eat a box of sleeping pills and wash them down with a handle of Beam.

And, yet, somehow you manage to resist that urge. That's progress.

 

[UNC71-00]

And, yet, somehow you manage to resist that urge. That's progress.

I just try to avoid threads which you frequent.

 

[strummingram]

I just try to avoid threads which you frequent.

Not very hard, obviously.

 

[UNC71-00]

Not very hard, obviously.

You have no idea

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Killing people to deter people from killing each other is like eating brain tumors to cure stomach cancer. Or, breathing exhaust fumes to awaken from a coma.

No it's nothing like those because those don't work, ever. The threat, or possibility, of being killed if you commit murder does indeed influence some peoples decision to not commit murder. A deterrent, albeit not one that works 100% of the time obviously, but one that works much better than a "gee, well you really shouldn't have done that". Once initial murders stop, then reactionary murders would no longer be needed.

And in addition to be a reactionary deterrent, it is also a preventative measure in some cases. For people who are intent on killing people, multiple people every year, killing them prevents future murders from happening. Jailing them for life can sometimes work as well, but some of those people are so messed up that they'd just turn to killing people in prison.

 

[strummingram]

No it's nothing like those because those don't work, ever. The threat, or possibility, of being killed if you commit murder does indeed influence some peoples decision to not commit murder. A deterrent, albeit not one that works 100% of the time obviously, but one that works much better than a "gee, well you really shouldn't have done that". Once initial murders stop, then reactionary murders would no longer be needed.

And in addition to be a reactionary deterrent, it is also a preventative measure in some cases. For people who are intent on killing people, multiple people every year, killing them prevents future murders from happening. Jailing them for life can sometimes work as well, but some of those people are so messed up that they'd just turn to killing people in prison.

Do you need the threat of execution to keep you from murdering people?