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Quick stuff (Wagner game - NCAAT)...

gary-7

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Jan 27, 2003
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...and we took care of business.

Look, this was your basic 1/16 game where ya just don't wanna end up on the wrong end of a trivia question, so yeah... TCB. Not too much to talk about, but quickly:

- took us a while to get our continuity in place, which happens after conference tourneys. We looked like a combination of too hyped-up (EC) and searching for our "legs" to get into the flow (Seth) but we never let them seriously challenge, and more than answered all their efforts at runs.

- the obvious remedy was getting the rock INSIDE and we did that early and got a smaller team in foul trouble --- even went Big at one point with Ingram at the 3. --- but, geez, we need to finish better Saturday! Mando had big numbers but it ain't gonna be that easy vs MSU.

- Fortunately, Withers put on an energy show in his homecoming --- cleaning up misses, defending, running the floor. Man, I hope he comes back next season.

- Some of the sloppiness with the rock we need to credit to Wagner's staff doing a good job of scouting our transition tendencies, and doing a really good job of getting into defensive transition lanes. That finally disappoeared once they were gassed in the second half.

- speaking of that, sticking with it was key. We didn't press, but starting off in 24 immediately set a tone and we were actively forcing tempo, then pushing the rock. As as a result we had HALF of our points in transition, mostly the Secondary.

- due to the above, and then with them going Zone, we seldom resorted to set plays, and with their overplaying of entries, RJ went to town, and the skip passes were always open.

- finally, Pax's minutes were very productive and Cormac was in constant motion, which paid off. Also good to see some Blue Steel minutes and congrats to Rob Landry for getting some points in a NCAAT box score!

Anyway... that one is outta the way, but now it gets real. The only down side of being a 1-seed is that your 2nd round opponent is gonna be a legit threat coming outta the 8/9 and we all know that Izzo's teams always peak in March. We are better --- but that works ONLY if we come to play like it's dook across the way! Our Guards better be locked in on both ends, our frontcourt guys better be ready to finish thru CONTACT, and fight for every rebound...
:cool: :oops:
 
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I am worried about EC. He didn’t have a really good game against state and didn’t look that good today. It’s like he’s letting his lack of scoring affect his floor game. I hope I’m wrong because we need his energy and passing.
 
The thing that concerns me about Cadeau is he has like 12 more turnovers than RJ on like 350 fewer minutes. The one area he should be excelling at greatly is not turning it over.
 
He was 0-2 3 assists 3 rebounds and 4 turnovers in only 18 mins Hubert sat him because he was struggling!

He just had a bad game, I'm not sure why some have to make excuses for him I understand people crowned him the 2nd coming of Cota-Ford-Marshall all in one but sometimes it is what it is.
 
Nice to see Ryan, Trimble and Ingram see some 3's go in. Cadeau will be fine. Think he tried to do too much. Just let things come to you. Sure he will get told that and listen.

Easy to do as a freshman. He didn't grow up dreaming of having an awesome game during the regular season. He probably put a lot of pressure on himself judging from how competitive he is.
 
...and we took care of business.

- Fortunately, Withers put on an energy show in his homecoming --- cleaning up misses, defending, running the floor. Man, I hope he comes back next season.
Withers, Washington, Ingram, High would be athletic and interchangeable.
Let's see who stays and who gets shown the door.
 
Withers, Washington, Ingram, High would be athletic and interchangeable.
Let's see who stays and who gets shown the door.
None should be shown the door.

Withers brings incredible athlricism, Ingram brings toughness, Washington is all-ACC with 20 more pounds and High is going to be crucial as an upperclassman.
 
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YOU talking about "class act"??? That's like Saddam Hussein talking about human rights.


Dude you have never see me attack someone with slurs over a disagreement on a dang message board.

Neither one of you know that guy personally, that wasn't cool and very distasteful.

Why do you and him feel like you can just say what ever you want to people and it be okay? No one here has to agree hell we don't have to like each other but he was out of line with that comment.
 
11 more TOS. 23 more assists.
I mean he is the point guard. If he didn't have most assists that would be pretty bad. The point is, his turnovers are concerning, and he has to limit them drastically from where he is now. I wasn't even counting the 4 from today.
 
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Really ? You have a hard on for bitching about a freshman PG on a #1 seed. Without EC, RJ isn’t an All-American and ACC POY. Get a grip man.
Seriously? You think Cadeau was that instrumental for RJ? The majority of his points are self-created.

I been telling people for like 3 years now that RJ is our best player and still people downplay him. Our ship sails or sinks on RJ. We need secondary scorers, but if RJ has an off night we usually sink regardless if they show up or not.
 
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Dude you have never see me attack someone with slurs over a disagreement on a dang message board.

Neither one of you know that guy personally, that wasn't cool and very distasteful.

Why do you and him feel like you can just say what ever you want to people and it be okay? No one here has to agree hell we don't have to like each other but he was out of line with that comment.
They are both message board bad guys…I am just talking about the game and how a guy is playing…1 guy is calling me gay and the other calling me a ignorant jackass in another thread…LMAO and neither would ever say that to my face…It’s okay….

Old move the goalpost Gary still didn’t say EC played bad yesterday…What a clown he is….
 
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Seriously? You think Cadeau was that instrumental for RJ? The majority of his points are self-created.

I been telling people for like 3 years now that RJ is our best player and still people downplay him. Our ship sails or sinks on RJ. We need secondary scorers, but if RJ has an off night we usually sink regardless if they show up or not.

Not a great take, Cadeau has had his ups and downs, but has absolutely been instrumental in RJ's success this season. Not hard to see at all unless you have your mind made up about certain players. I think you could ask RJ and he would tell you the same.
 
I don't see how you separate RJ's season from Cadeau's arrival. You can look at what Caleb did and see they both had better seasons not playing together. Would RJ have had the same success with a different pg arriving - who knows, but being able to play off the ball more let his game thrive. Cadeau is not the only reason for RJ having the year he had but he has been a major factor. The better floor spacing and focus on playing in transition put RJ in a much better position to be successful.

As far as the game, UNC took care of business in the opening round. They did what was needed. The Spartans will be a much more difficult game and test for Hubert as well as the players. Keep the defensive focus and take advantage of transition opportunities. I think is one of those games UNC really needs to come out on fire and set the tone early.
 
OK, so it was a good win, we survive and advance but I can't shake the feeling it felt more to me like a practice scrimmage than a NCAAT game.

JWit, easy game ball, easy his best game with us, last time you have seen a non-freshman player develop this much right in front of your eyes DURING the season? Maybe John Henson? I am talking about a guy that begins the season very sketchy and very slowly begins to improve to the extent that come post season he is a solid productive guy for us. I started the season cringing when he came in, expecting him to turn the ball over, make some bone headed play but he has now come to the point I scream for him to go in at times when Hubert has him on the bench. Some folks don't seem able to let go of how the kid played early season and want t o hold that over him still, I don't, I look at how he is playing now and he is playing now like a guy that we need to get minutes! He gets the game ball for this game from me.

Wagner was small and they didn't have a sling shot that could take down a giant, did all they could do with the players they had but we all know, Wagner is not in the discussion of best teams in the country. Bacot, looked like a man against boys frankly, RJ did RJ things, we defended OK, just OK IMO.

Just a weird feeling today, considering we won in a blow out, a thing that usually excites me, I felt more pity than excitement. Against MSU we are going to have to find our focused intensity, this is a mega important game and MSU has a very experienced athletic back court, it is win or go home time, Kentucky found that out yesterday, we do not need to find that out tomorrow!
 
Not a great take, Cadeau has had his ups and downs, but has absolutely been instrumental in RJ's success this season. Not hard to see at all unless you have your mind made up about certain players. I think you could ask RJ and he would tell you the same.
I agree, RJ has been able to focus on his own scoring with Cadeau, it has freed him up. Look, RJ is a great player, Caleb was a great player for us and is still a great player for zona. 2 great players individually but put them together in the same back court and their collective is worse than they are as individual pieces. They just seemed to step on each other's game, neither is as good together as they are apart. To many folks want to blame Caleb and they shouldn't, it was just a bad mix.
 
He was 0-2 3 assists 3 rebounds and 4 turnovers in only 18 mins Hubert sat him because he was struggling!

He just had a bad game, I'm not sure why some have to make excuses for him I understand people crowned him the 2nd coming of Cota-Ford-Marshall all in one but sometimes it is what it is.
I am not looking to get in to some of the "other" nastiness in this thread so I will keep this simple, Cadeau played like a freshman in his first NCAAT game and the moment was to big for him. Cadeau is right now today a smallish PG, that struggles at times to defend, that struggles to jump shoot. Stop me when I am wrong about that!

But the kid is as well an immense talent that we should ALL, every single one of us, be ecstatic that he will return for us next season. I personally can't wait to see this kid after the coming off season having this season under his belt and going in to next season as a leader on this team, I think we will see something very special. His frosh to soph bump could be historic!
 
OK, so it was a good win, we survive and advance but I can't shake the feeling it felt more to me like a practice scrimmage than a NCAAT game.

JWit, easy game ball, easy his best game with us, last time you have seen a non-freshman player develop this much right in front of your eyes DURING the season? Maybe John Henson? I am talking about a guy that begins the season very sketchy and very slowly begins to improve to the extent that come post season he is a solid productive guy for us. I started the season cringing when he came in, expecting him to turn the ball over, make some bone headed play but he has now come to the point I scream for him to go in at times when Hubert has him on the bench. Some folks don't seem able to let go of how the kid played early season and want t o hold that over him still, I don't, I look at how he is playing now and he is playing now like a guy that we need to get minutes! He gets the game ball for this game from me.

Wagner was small and they didn't have a sling shot that could take down a giant, did all they could do with the players they had but we all know, Wagner is not in the discussion of best teams in the country. Bacot, looked like a man against boys frankly, RJ did RJ things, we defended OK, just OK IMO.

Just a weird feeling today, considering we won in a blow out, a thing that usually excites me, I felt more pity than excitement. Against MSU we are going to have to find our focused intensity, this is a mega important game and MSU has a very experienced athletic back court, it is win or go home time, Kentucky found that out yesterday, we do not need to find that out tomorrow!
Good points you made here. If UNC brings the same level of defense displayed against Wagner, I think MSU wins. However defense being the same, if UNC gets hot and is making shots at a slightly higher percentage, maybe they just outscore MSU and sneak out with a win. Lastly, it's going to be interesting to see JWit in this game. Was the competition level the reason for his success or is he changing before our eyes at the best time imaginable. On a side note, if they are hot and playing that choking defense we've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the THs win by 20... lol kentucky...
 
Good points you made here. If UNC brings the same level of defense displayed against Wagner, I think MSU wins. However defense being the same, if UNC gets hot and is making shots at a slightly higher percentage, maybe they just outscore MSU and sneak out with a win. Lastly, it's going to be interesting to see JWit in this game. Was the competition level the reason for his success or is he changing before our eyes at the best time imaginable. On a side note, if they are hot and playing that choking defense we've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the THs win by 20... lol kentucky...
VERY good question, was it the talent level and lack of size for Wagner, was it his playing 5mins from where he grew up, or was it the player developing? I think I would say it was a combination of all of those 3 things, I will be happily surprised if he has another game like this for the rest of this post season but I would for sure love for him to!
 
I am not looking to get in to some of the "other" nastiness in this thread so I will keep this simple, Cadeau played like a freshman in his first NCAAT game and the moment was to big for him. Cadeau is right now today a smallish PG, that struggles at times to defend, that struggles to jump shoot. Stop me when I am wrong about that!

But the kid is as well an immense talent that we should ALL, every single one of us, be ecstatic that he will return for us next season. I personally can't wait to see this kid after the coming off season having this season under his belt and going in to next season as a leader on this team, I think we will see something very special. His frosh to soph bump could be historic!
Spot on. My expectations for Eliott Cadeau moving forward have changed.
When we signed him, I always thought he would be here for two years.
After watching him play this season, I think there is a better chance of him playing 3-4 years in College, than playing 2.
NBA needs shotmakers, and positional size.
EC has neither at this time.
I think he will improve a great deal as a shotmaker, but he isn't close currently.
Carolina benefits with Cadeau being fair/ good shooter rather than great shooter
( longshot at best) because then we will have him a long time. I think Cadeau as a Jr/ Sr would be filthy.
 
Seriously? You think Cadeau was that instrumental for RJ? The majority of his points are self-created.

I been telling people for like 3 years now that RJ is our best player and still people downplay him. Our ship sails or sinks on RJ. We need secondary scorers, but if RJ has an off night we usually sink regardless if they show up or not.
RJ is freed up to be one of the best scores in the country by EC taking the PG duties. RJ is a beast and having EC allows the beast to hunt.
 
Caleb was a detriment to RJ because he took away so much usage from RJ. Not because of his skillset. RJ would have succeeded this year if you simply took out Love's usage and added a deadeye spot up 3 point specialist in the spot or an average replacement PG that didn't take up all the usage.

If Cadeau was a threat from the jumper, RJs numbers would be even higher as they can sag off him for double teams or clogging the lane.

Cadeau provides benefit to RJ but nothing more than any other average replacement PG in the spot.

Love and RJ are both high usage guards. And it normally doesn't end well when one clearly hasn't taken a backseat.

But to act like Cadeau is instrumental in RJs year is silly. The root is Love not being here, not Cadeau being here.

Last year everyone bemoaned how Bacot was hindered by poor entry passing and getting the ball into him on the block. Bacots numbers have actually gone down. If Cadeau was providing the boon, it would be seen in more facets. The fact is RJ has taken more usage that Love was taking so his numbers rose accordingly. If we had Love take more of a backseat last year or replaced him with Trimble, this would have been seen prior. We tried to put two primary scorers together instead of choosing one and filling the roles around it.
 
Dude you have never see me attack someone with slurs over a disagreement on a dang message board.

Neither one of you know that guy personally, that wasn't cool and very distasteful.

Why do you and him feel like you can just say what ever you want to people and it be okay? No one here has to agree hell we don't have to like each other but he was out of line with that comment.
Like hell you haven't. The only times you show up on here is when you see a chance to bitch and/or make snide remarks about something that I've gone to the trouble of writing for the good folks here who appreciate it. Since you obviously don't appreciate it, how about doing this board a favor and just stay TF out of my threads?
 
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Spot on. My expectations for Eliott Cadeau moving forward have changed.
When we signed him, I always thought he would be here for two years.
After watching him play this season, I think there is a better chance of him playing 3-4 years in College, than playing 2.
NBA needs shotmakers, and positional size.
EC has neither at this time.
I think he will improve a great deal as a shotmaker, but he isn't close currently.
Carolina benefits with Cadeau being fair/ good shooter rather than great shooter
( longshot at best) because then we will have him a long time. I think Cadeau as a Jr/ Sr would be filthy.
Being totally truthful I trusted the hype over experience concerning Cadeau. Ya see I know that being the starting PG for UNC is one of the most difficult things any player in the college game can face, you walk in the foot steps of greatness. For a freshman to walk in to that, no, for a RE-CLASS freshman to walk in to that, many many years of following this program tells me I know better than to expect it to match the hype. I freakin know better than that or at least I should! LOL

1 and done, 2year plan, yeah OK, you could not be more right in that the NBA is shy to take a small PG, Cadeau is a mini me by NBA PG standards now days. He is simply is not a jump shooter at least for now, the combination of to small AND can't jump shoot keeps you out of mock drafts. I have had heated words with gary and what ignited me was his constant refusal to acknowledge that the hype Cadeau got incoming was to much, I feel like it hurt the kid more than helped him. This kid just needs to mentally mature and he will and when he does that talent will still be there but the results from that talent will be so much better. RJ is the player he is today because he has matured as a young man, Cadeau will as well.

BUT, HUGE BUT, because he is so small by NBA standards we UNC fans should realize and celebrate that may allow us to enjoy this kid as a Tar Heel player for 2-3 more seasons! That means what ever goes on with the other 4 positions, our PG position will be in good hands long term and I love that!
 
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Caleb was a detriment to RJ because he took away so much usage from RJ. Not because of his skillset. RJ would have succeeded this year if you simply took out Love's usage and added a deadeye spot up 3 point specialist in the spot or an average replacement PG that didn't take up all the usage.

If Cadeau was a threat from the jumper, RJs numbers would be even higher as they can sag off him for double teams or clogging the lane.

Cadeau provides benefit to RJ but nothing more than any other average replacement PG in the spot.

Love and RJ are both high usage guards. And it normally doesn't end well when one clearly hasn't taken a backseat.

But to act like Cadeau is instrumental in RJs year is silly. The root is Love not being here, not Cadeau being here.

Last year everyone bemoaned how Bacot was hindered by poor entry passing and getting the ball into him on the block. Bacots numbers have actually gone down. If Cadeau was providing the boon, it would be seen in more facets. The fact is RJ has taken more usage that Love was taking so his numbers rose accordingly. If we had Love take more of a backseat last year or replaced him with Trimble, this would have been seen prior. We tried to put two primary scorers together instead of choosing one and filling the roles around it.
"But to act like Cadeau is instrumental in RJs year is silly. The root is Love not being here, not Cadeau being here." OK so that is where I disagree but let me explain why. First, I don't think RJ was all that happy at the thought of Cadeau coming in to play for us this season, the feeling being this is my last season, my team, I am the leader and I am the PG, very understandable. I think that drove RJ even harder to prove not only himself as a player & leader but as a PG. I don't know how many have noticed but RJ is a MUCH better PG THIS season than he was the last 3 (you know when Cadeau is on the bench). RJ has really THRIVED as a shooting guard with Cadeau in with him, he has seen the real value of his being free to look more for his own scoring and not be burdened with running the team on the floor. Yes, of course, not having to compete with Caleb for shots has as well helped him become ACC POY for a #1 seed in the NCAAT. But in the process RJ became a better PG, as they say iron sharpens iron!
 
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I was hoping to see EC get some confidence back yesterday but it seemed like he got pulled every couple minutes regardless of how he was playing. At this point I sort of expect more clunky offense tomorrow which makes it a coin toss game unless MSU reverts to poor shooting, which they certainly could.
 
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"But to act like Cadeau is instrumental in RJs year is silly. The root is Love not being here, not Cadeau being here." OK so that is where I disagree but let me explain why. First, I don't think RJ was all that happy at the thought of Cadeau coming in to play for us this season, the feeling being this is my last season, my team, I am the leader and I am the PG, very understandable. I think that drove RJ even harder to prove not only himself as a player & leader but as a PG. I don't know how many have noticed but RJ is a MUCH better PG THIS season than he was the last 3 (you know when Cadeau is on the bench). RJ has really THRIVED as a shooting guard with Cadeau in with him, he has seen the real value of his being free to look more for his own scoring and not be burdened with running the team on the floor. Yes, of course, not having to compete with Caleb for shots has as well helped him become ACC POY for a #1 seed in the NCAAT. But in the process RJ became a better PG, as they say iron sharpens iron!
True but I think again any average replacement PG would have elicited the same. It helps the ball stopping with Love is gone.
 
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