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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

bluetoe
blazers said:
Gov and Econ and Civics need to be emphasized in HS.

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I agree completely, but I think the emphasis should start much sooner. In order to do so, we might have to cut back on other aspects of social studies, which in itself would be of great benefit in building appreciation for what we have and the cooperation we need to sustain it. More what is and can be and less what isn't but should be.
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Late stuff (Elon game)...

D
What Would Jesus Do? said:
FIFY
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In my best Joe Biden voice... "Ah, come on man"! LOL

On a more serious note WW, I think you see things in a very similar way as I do, if there is something you like you say it but if there are things you do not like you say that as well. I try to say things as much as I can with a velvet glove but sometimes dang it you just need that glove made out of concrete! LOL

I would offer you this, advice take it or leave it, your choice. Watch the personalities of those you engage with a little bit more and ask yourself, is this juice really worth the squeeze. Example, if you disagree with gary, is it a major disagree or a minor point knowing that if you disagree with gary he is not going to take it well, man, that is just gary for better or worse. Trust me, I know this all to well having disagreed with gary several times and don't get me wrong, I like gary, I know a LOT of gary's! LOL

TP, has to be one of the most absolute UNC fans you will find, I suspect just as he always looks for the best case in Tar Heel discussions, he does that in his every day like looking for the best in those people he meets, I LOVE folks like that, kind of wish I could be more like that actually.

My rule of thumb, from the very first post I wrote on a pro UNC site (the old Carolina Blue site), when I reply to a poster, when I write any post I look at it as if we are sitting in a sports bar over beers and discussing UNC sports. We are going to disagree a lot but we don't get mad at it, we just drink another beer. Oh the days of hooking up with my buddy John (a UConn fan) at the Flying Saucer beer bar in the vista just off the South Carolina campus, good times! Disagreed a lot but it was friendly. How ever, if you have been in a bar with multiple people, you know that some times those what should be friendly discussions don't stay so friendly. In those rare cases we had to continue the "discussion" outside in a not so friendly manner, I was about that to. Point being, I stand my ground and I do not apologize for doing so IF and when the juice is worth the squeeze.
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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

bluetoe
uncboy10 said:
Socialism is about as big of a problem for the US as Nazism is. We live in a country where the highest court in the land has ruled that corporations have personhood and are entitled to political representation. That's literally the opposite end of the spectrum from socialism.
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well that is pretty much just what I was saying about polarization and not coming together. We became what we are because of capitalism. Is it ideal? Nothing is ideal, including the goose that laid the golden egg. On the other hand, I agree that the notion of corporations being treated as individual citizens needs some rethinking...not completely though.


uncboy10 said:
The people who "put their nose to the grindstone" have seen the purchasing power of their wages eroded while home ownership and financial security have become more and more elusive as the cost of living rises faster than their earnings do. For the first time in modern American history we are seeing a generation that is likely to end up economically worse off than their parents were. Conservatives are just as frustrated by this as liberals are which is why they are drawn to a populist candidate like trump who tells them that he is going to make their situation better.
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the people who put their noses to the grindstone of self-improvement is what I was referring to . There is a path for those who desire to take it, and the fallacy of being stuck at a certain level doesn't hold. There will of necessity be stratification of classes, but those who want to move up in the world have the means to do so. THAT is what needs to be appreciated.

There is a great disparity in wealth, no question. But the working classes are not being held in place because the wealthy have all the money. That is utter nonsense.



uncboy10 said:
The moralistic bullshit about what is "fair" is irrelevant. We have reached an unsustainable level of wealth and income inequality largely due to the asymmetry of bargaining power between the working class and their employers. Corporate profits have seen all time highs while wage growth has been stagnant. Telling an entire generation that being frustrated by macroeconomic conditions that preclude them from owning homes and having economic security makes them a socialist is f*cking stupid.
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and I didn't say that voicing frustration over one's lot in life was tantamount to socialism. I'm sure I've done a little of that myself. But I didn't wallow in it, I did something about it...and believe me, I started at the bottom. Whatever the answer is, taking away the molding effect of competition and simply leveling outcomes is the wrong way to keep us prosperous. Home ownership being unattainable has more to do with the price of a home than with anything else.


uncboy10 said:
Your poast was just the right wing version of the liberals who are currently whining about how "they" want to take away their freedoms. You're both so consumed with reductionist views of the other side that you can't tell your ass from your elbow.
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this is you trying to sound more savvy than you actually are, and I suspect there is resentment that colors your thinking..

At the core of anything is the thing that makes it what it is. Picking at the nuances and tweaking them endlessly and expeditiously is just pissing up a tree or playing whack-a-mole.. Discovering root causes and determining the underlying reality of our existence and our society and culture is a necessary first step that is vastly overlooked by those who whine rather than think. When one thinks, he's going to find that life itself presents us with much that is inherently unsolvable yet entirely workable with limitations.

The people who you paint as struggling so mightily are living like kings compared to those who preceded them by not that many years. Throughout history, lesser kings have coveted what greater kings have. That's a good thing. Eliminating competition by taking more and more away from those who have succeeded to give to those who haven't succeeded as well is not. Human nature doesn't change. Competition requires that there are winners and losers, and competition is what drove the evolution that has made us what we are.. The best thing to do is to harness those better aspects of human nature while limiting the aspects that hold us back. Then, if we look at it realistically, we realize that the losers don't have it so bad because the competition has lifted us all.
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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

strummingram
pooponduke said:
The first problem I see with that is some guy named Zach Lambert getting his information about Trump from NPR and calling his position "Trump's tyrannical posture".

I'd say Mr. Lambert needs a few more lessons in history to learn about actual tyranny.
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Point me in the right direction, please! What is the objective source for the truth about "actual tyranny?"
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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

bluetoe
uncboy10 said:
Listening to the pundits and the stuff going around social media makes me think that republicans likely win again in 2028.

After 2016 we were told that Hillary lost because of sexism, mixed with a little racism and homophobia. Apparently a grotesque stew of deplorable nitwits came out of the woodwork to try and kill America.

Eight years later and it is the exact same narrative about why Harris lost. There is zero recognition of the fact that democrats have lost the working class, and that people are sick of performative identity politics. The leadership in the Democratic Party is completely full of shit, and consumed with self righteousness. That is not a combination that lends itself to self reflection and growth.

There are plenty of deplorable, q anon dipshits out there. The extreme right Christian nationalist morons certainly exist, and we should probably keep a fairly close eye on them to make sure they’re kept in check. But they’re a small minority of extremists and there certainly aren’t nearly enough of them to win elections.

The brain rot on the left is a different beast. It may not be as radical, but it’s much more pervasive. The ‘land acknowledgements’ and woke oppression Olympics have become mainstream. The Democratic Party needs to change but so does its base. Until they get back to focusing on substantive issues that affect working middle class voters, they will continue to lose elections. Ironically, they will continue to take losses on the social issues in the process, because of the inability to coherently address the economic issues plaguing the middle class.

Sadly, I don’t think this country will ever come back together until/unless there is another major tragedy. Both sides had been thoroughly convinced that if they lost this election it would be the end of democracy. The truth is that we don’t need corrupt political elites to kill democracy, it seems like we’re perfectly capable of doing that to ourselves.
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any tragedy-induced coming together is going to be temporary. Any true coming together is extremely unlikely. There will continue to be an ongoing, natural slide toward a more socialistic society and there will be those who resist that slide.

And I say 'natural' slide not because I think it's a good thing but because it's inevitable that in a successful, pampered society, so many people are enlightened only by their immediate environment which makes them ask, we have it so good, why can't we change the rules to let everybody have it so good. They tend to think of their situation as the natural default human condition which others are being deprived of. So they join forces with those who do have less.

Meanwhile others (that would include me) feel that this is taking away the driving force that allowed the society to become as good as it is, and who understand that the default natural human condition is harsh and competitive.. The stratification of classes is due to such competition, which is a good and necessary thing and which ultimately benefits everyone although not necessarily equally. The socialistic think of competition and class distinction as unfair and therefor wrong. Well of course it's unfair...it's life. But being life, it isn't wrong.

Those on the right think we have done enough in providing a path for anyone who wants to put his nose to the grindstone, while those on the left don't think that's good enough. Rightists want a level playing field, leftists want a level outcome. Equality or equity.

The long and the short of it is an old story....we are spoiled and being fooled by our own success.
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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

B
uncboy10 said:
Listening to the pundits and the stuff going around social media makes me think that republicans likely win again in 2028.

After 2016 we were told that Hillary lost because of sexism, mixed with a little racism and homophobia. Apparently a grotesque stew of deplorable nitwits came out of the woodwork to try and kill America.

Eight years later and it is the exact same narrative about why Harris lost. There is zero recognition of the fact that democrats have lost the working class, and that people are sick of performative identity politics. The leadership in the Democratic Party is completely full of shit, and consumed with self righteousness. That is not a combination that lends itself to self reflection and growth.

There are plenty of deplorable, q anon dipshits out there. The extreme right Christian nationalist morons certainly exist, and we should probably keep a fairly close eye on them to make sure they’re kept in check. But they’re a small minority of extremists and there certainly aren’t nearly enough of them to win elections.

The brain rot on the left is a different beast. It may not be as radical, but it’s much more pervasive. The ‘land acknowledgements’ and woke oppression Olympics have become mainstream. The Democratic Party needs to change but so does its base. Until they get back to focusing on substantive issues that affect working middle class voters, they will continue to lose elections. Ironically, they will continue to take losses on the social issues in the process, because of the inability to coherently address the economic issues plaguing the middle class.

Sadly, I don’t think this country will ever come back together until/unless there is another major tragedy. Both sides had been thoroughly convinced that if they lost this election it would be the end of democracy. The truth is that we don’t need corrupt political elites to kill democracy, it seems like we’re perfectly capable of doing that to ourselves.
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"Until they get back to focusing on substantive issues that affect working middle class voters, they will continue to lose elections."

Sherrod Brown is about as pro-working-class as it gets. How was his opponent highlighting working middle class issues better? What did he say that addresses their economic issues?

"because of the inability to coherently address the economic issues plaguing the middle class."

Brown's message just can't get thru the muck IMO. Maybe he could've backed away from abortion-rights stuff. I believe the ability to communicate the message or communicate the contrasts is more than half the problem. Aside for speaking to feelings, what policy is Trump putting forward that addresses the middle class economic issues?

ETA - by muck, i mean echo-chambers, social media, misinfo, tribalism and confirmation bias, etc.
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