TarHeelIllustrated: North Carolina Tar Heels Football & Basketball Recruiting - A Big Washington Jump Wouldn't be a First for Carolina
The most discussed topic regarding North Carolina’s basketball team this summer has focused on the Tar Heels’ big
A Big Washington Jump Wouldn't be a First for Carolina
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I fully expect the jump! I saw him improve a vast amount during the season and I know how good our strength/conditioning staff is at helping peeps recover or get stronger! I like that we can put up different combos of teams and go small, medium, or large as needed. I think JWash will be a problem as a stretch 5 which I never thought I would see in bball! Don't peeps remember that the end of last season and this past off season are his only periods of sustained health since HS??? Don't peeps know about the ample history of UNC players showing leaps in performance after their second full year in our program??
I spent the ENTIRE season last season screaming that Jalen both needed and deserved more minutes. I did because I saw something not just once but multiple times that struck me as a weapon that VERY FEW if any defender in the college game could stop or even as much as hinder, that Jalen Washington jump shot! It is an absolute KILLER, it is because first he has a really extra sweet stroke, near Durant like stroke for a big man. It is not just mechanically sound but he takes it with total belief that it will drop, to the extent that it surprised me when he missed. That is the kind of feeling I got when Donald Williams went on that NCAAT run or Brice shooting mid range jumpers vs Syracuse. That should be enough for most but there is more, more in that he has a 7'4-5" reach and he actually elevates his feet well off the floor (a thing you do not see many 6'10-11" college players do) AND he has that really nice high release point. And yet there is even more, he takes GREAT shots when he takes his jumper, he doesn't rush it, he takes it smoothly and if he can't he passes it, and as we have seen has range well past the 3pt arch. That is an NBA lotto big man jump shot pure and simple. I want to be clear, I am not in any way down on Jalen.
That jump shot HAS TO BE FEATURED because it is a can opener to the rest of our offense. The later we got in to last season the fewer jump shots I saw from Jalen, it was more Bacot like put backs etc. that I saw rather than jumpers, big time mistake in my view. If we try to use Jalen the same way we used Bacot we are going to have a problem, just like we did when we tried to make Nance in to a stretch 4 and camp him out past the 3pt arch. Jalen is not going to be able to do what Bacot did just as Bacot could not do what I see Jalen as doing really well. So for us to be effective the offensive approach will once again have to change pretty radically, going from heavy usage of a back to the basket big to more of a open floor jump shooting big is radical change. Even more of a concern for me is that so far it seems when we have gone in to seasons with Hubert making radical changes we had to go to even more radical change to correct the radical change (dang, sounds like Kamal wrote that, LOL)?
Understand, under Dean as well as Roy, you already knew what UNC was going to do, you did see much change, you rarely saw anything that neared radical change, you saw execution of basic offense and defense, the names changed, what we did didn't change. Hubert has to get to that point, where the names change but what we do, how we go about it does not change it's basic approach.
That jump shot HAS TO BE FEATURED because it is a can opener to the rest of our offense. The later we got in to last season the fewer jump shots I saw from Jalen, it was more Bacot like put backs etc. that I saw rather than jumpers, big time mistake in my view. If we try to use Jalen the same way we used Bacot we are going to have a problem, just like we did when we tried to make Nance in to a stretch 4 and camp him out past the 3pt arch. Jalen is not going to be able to do what Bacot did just as Bacot could not do what I see Jalen as doing really well. So for us to be effective the offensive approach will once again have to change pretty radically, going from heavy usage of a back to the basket big to more of a open floor jump shooting big is radical change. Even more of a concern for me is that so far it seems when we have gone in to seasons with Hubert making radical changes we had to go to even more radical change to correct the radical change (dang, sounds like Kamal wrote that, LOL)?
Understand, under Dean as well as Roy, you already knew what UNC was going to do, you did see much change, you rarely saw anything that neared radical change, you saw execution of basic offense and defense, the names changed, what we did didn't change. Hubert has to get to that point, where the names change but what we do, how we go about it does not change it's basic approach.
Every coach had to find his style and his footing! These days you can't get peeps to fit into a system, you have to fit their games or they leave! I agree in principle, but expect to see us alter what we do for each team based on personnel. I think this is (unfortunately) the new normal! No Bacot means no starting with a back to the basket monster that demands extra attention. Sweet shooting Big means you will see more open lanes; more drive/kicks; more offside rebounding; more small ball; and a faster pace. Will we go so far as to pivot 180 degrees to an Outside-In O??? Hope not, but I expect to see major tweaks every year now! This is shaping up to be a very fun team and I expect to see a fast paced, high scoring O and an annoying/physical D. I expect us to get back to using the bench to wear folks down physically and mentally!
I was on that wagon too. With good health he has a great pro career ahead !!
Not really sure there's a good comparison with any of the former players cited .. Wash is somewhat unique imo.
TarHeelIllustrated: North Carolina Tar Heels Football & Basketball Recruiting - A Big Washington Jump Wouldn't be a First for Carolina
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He just needs to be solid not great.
Agree, which is why I didn't actually compare, as noted in the piece. It was more an outline that simialr types of players have made jumps in their careers, usually when opportunity increased.
Jalen's got some Ed Davis, John Henson, Brice Johnson, and Marvin Williams in him—emphasis on the 'some.' He’s like a sampler platter of UNC greatness!
Of course we’re going to see a jump. He’s going to likely what…. triple his minutes from last year? (as long as he stays out of significant foul trouble) Unless his efficiency falls off a cliff, his production will increase a ton.
I don’t think that’s the question though. The question is can he anchor a Final Four team, which as of now has question marks in their frontcourt.
I don’t have the pro membership so I didn’t read this article in full. But for every player that took a jump at UNC, there some low minute players that stayed below average.
While I think Jalen Washington’s talent far surpasses Brandon Huffman, Joel James, Desmond Hubert’s… Those guys were zeroes and remained zeroes despite some optimism. People here were quick to point out when Joel James was listed on some mock drafts early on as a freshman. People here thought Brandon Huffman would become a starting-caliber big guy at UNC.
I think he’ll have a productive year assuming he can stay healthy and stay out of foul trouble. Does that mean he and his fellow big men are good enough to anchor this team to the Final Four? Right now I have my doubts.
But all subject to change until they play the games for real. Maybe he’s Dirk Nowitzki this season and just needed minutes all along. Maybe he can’t play more than 10 minutes because he remains a fouling machine. Maybe something in between.
So while a jump wouldn’t be a first at UNC. A “just a guy” year wouldn’t be a first at UNC either.
*reiterating that I didn’t read the article so hopefully didn’t take anything out of context.
I don’t think that’s the question though. The question is can he anchor a Final Four team, which as of now has question marks in their frontcourt.
I don’t have the pro membership so I didn’t read this article in full. But for every player that took a jump at UNC, there some low minute players that stayed below average.
While I think Jalen Washington’s talent far surpasses Brandon Huffman, Joel James, Desmond Hubert’s… Those guys were zeroes and remained zeroes despite some optimism. People here were quick to point out when Joel James was listed on some mock drafts early on as a freshman. People here thought Brandon Huffman would become a starting-caliber big guy at UNC.
I think he’ll have a productive year assuming he can stay healthy and stay out of foul trouble. Does that mean he and his fellow big men are good enough to anchor this team to the Final Four? Right now I have my doubts.
But all subject to change until they play the games for real. Maybe he’s Dirk Nowitzki this season and just needed minutes all along. Maybe he can’t play more than 10 minutes because he remains a fouling machine. Maybe something in between.
So while a jump wouldn’t be a first at UNC. A “just a guy” year wouldn’t be a first at UNC either.
*reiterating that I didn’t read the article so hopefully didn’t take anything out of context.
I see him as a Spencer Hawes type player. Both limited mobility. Both plus shooting bigs. Jalen has more nose for the ball than Hawes did.
But definitely unique for UNC.
The jump means elevating quality of play. I have posted multiple times what his numbers are per-40 minutes.
I hope Wash finishes out his career like some of those UNC greats you named. If I had to pick I'd say Wash resembles Brice as much as anyone.
Nah, Brice had elite athleticism and jumping ability. Dude was basically a pogo stick. Washington struggles jumping unless he gets a running start. Plus Brice only had a 6'11" wingspan, while Washington has a wingspan closer to Henson/Wright length.
He just needs to stop fouling so much and add enough muscle to hold off strong centers.
This…Give us 12 and 7 and a block a game and we are good…He doesn’t have to average 20 and 10…
Chances are miniscule that he is "just a guy". Chances are great that he is a productive member of a team that makes a deep tourney run! All teams' have a low chance of making the FF right now no matter who is on their team! FF is not the standard for a quality starting BIg. I believe he can make an All ACC team with average improvement + drastic minutes increase. I think he will be pushed in practice and come out of the gate running. If he does begin the year fouling too much or not being able to hold his ground in the post, there are options. One is he and Lubin cross guard or switch 4/5 at will!
“Chances of Cadeau not being all ACC at least (as a freshman) are very slim.”
- @TPFKAPFS
“I expect him [Brandon Huffman] to improve every year with a chance to be starter level (I’m assuming this meant at UNC) in 4 years.”
- @TPFKAPFS
Maybe Washington has an awesome year though, who knows. I’m not saying past cold takes provide any predictive value either way.
I do think the odds of Washington being an all conference big are pretty small because he probably isn’t going to log 27+ minutes that traditional all conference bigs play. 20 MPG would be a drastic minutes increase for him.
Per 40 minutes aren’t the best indicator of production (current or future) for low minute players.
Brandon Huffman’s per 40 minute numbers:
Fr: 19.2 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 3.3 bpg
So: 18.5 ppg, 14.3 rpg
Even Joel James averaged 11.1 ppg, 11.6 rpg per 40 as a senior.
Jalen Washington is obviously significantly more talented and better than those 2. And I’m expecting him to have a productive year. I’m just saying the per 40 stuff can be extremely skewed for a player that plays low volume minutes.
20+ minutes as the starter on the #1 team should get you on one of the All ACC teams. Did Huffman make the 4 years? He also became All conference for the Ohio Valley which is a step down but always sends multiple teams to the dance even though he fought through knee injuries. And he averaged double figures so I think he would have contributed! EC :
All-Rookie Team
Markus Burton, Notre Dame, 73 votes
Jared McCain, Duke, 73
Carlton Carrington, Pitt, 65
Baye Ndongo, Georgia Tech, 60
Elliot Cadeau, North Carolina, 39
So it appears both were correct and I'll take your graceful apology! The only true statement made was past performance is not predictive! I categorize my takes as informed AND optimistic while yours are pessimistic and seldom take the chance for improvement into consideration!
All-Rookie Team
Markus Burton, Notre Dame, 73 votes
Jared McCain, Duke, 73
Carlton Carrington, Pitt, 65
Baye Ndongo, Georgia Tech, 60
Elliot Cadeau, North Carolina, 39
So it appears both were correct and I'll take your graceful apology! The only true statement made was past performance is not predictive! I categorize my takes as informed AND optimistic while yours are pessimistic and seldom take the chance for improvement into consideration!
Of course it isn't, but it's one of many ways to look at things.
And the Huffman per-40 numbers are meaningless because he didn't get quality time. Jalen played in competitive scenarios, not mop-up duty. James had little pressure to perform with the possible exception of the game at Louisville his senior year. He was nowhere as important to that team as JWash was a year ago.
But you have to take into consideration the moments said player logs their minutes. Pretty sure Huff was mostly mop up and Wash played consistently every game.
Edit to say sorry, just saw where Andrew replied.
Huffman was a mop up garbage time big at UNC. You can move the goalposts if you want because he started at a much lower level.
I quoted your Cadeau prediction and it didn’t mention the freshman team at all. I guess it’s an important distinction which all team you predicted for him. I don’t think you meant all rookie team but if you did, then sure, you were correct about that.
Washington is interesting, I believe he going to make a huge leap, if for nothing else playing time.
I don't think Washington is a go to scorer, but with his frame and descent jump shot he will produce between 10-15 pts a game as our big. I would not pass Washington the ball and say give me bucket.
My concern about Washington is number one health, and number two is he is fouling machine.
I am reading post about Washington being a pro, well as a fan I hope so, but really Washington a pro?
RJ, EC, and Jackson help Washington because I feel they will push the tempo and this should play into Washington getting easy layups and put backs.
If Washington turns out to be the player some are posting about we are going to win the title this year.
I don't think Washington is a go to scorer, but with his frame and descent jump shot he will produce between 10-15 pts a game as our big. I would not pass Washington the ball and say give me bucket.
My concern about Washington is number one health, and number two is he is fouling machine.
I am reading post about Washington being a pro, well as a fan I hope so, but really Washington a pro?
RJ, EC, and Jackson help Washington because I feel they will push the tempo and this should play into Washington getting easy layups and put backs.
If Washington turns out to be the player some are posting about we are going to win the title this year.
That’s absolutely true. And I’ve said I think Jalen Washington will be productive this season. I have big picture doubts about him but I think he’ll have a productive season.
For me, I would think that way if his per 40 minutes sucked last year too. I don’t think his per 40 minute numbers have much value since his PT was so limited. Are they more valuable than Huffman’s? Sure I’ll give you that.
It’s the offseason so it’s time to be optimistic. But I agree. If the positivity surrounding Washington and High (and everyone else) is real then 14/1 on them to win it all is an unreal value, lol.
I just remain skeptical about this front line.
I see wash doing some good things but I’m not sold on high as of yet. He did look tons better in the few scrimmages we saw. Would be nice to see that against some good competition for sure.
I said All ACC and I meant it! He made one of the teams and will make one his year! The real issue is why you feel the need to constantly denigrate peeps who sacrificed, bled, and worked their arses off to play for the Heels! Huffman and JWash have no comparison other than both being Bigs at UNC. I believe in our coaching staff's ability to develop peeps so they maximize their potential and I believe one more year would have done so for Huff! Spending time trying to point out how terrible Huff and the others you mentioned were is despicable! Changing your name does not change the fact that you are 100% negative all the time!
EC will be All ACC 1st or 2nd team and JWash will prove an important cog on a very successful team! I have no issue with missing a little on these statements as long as both of them are close to what I predicted. I know of only one human who ever got every prediction correct and I spend most of my life trying to live up to His example!
EC will be All ACC 1st or 2nd team and JWash will prove an important cog on a very successful team! I have no issue with missing a little on these statements as long as both of them are close to what I predicted. I know of only one human who ever got every prediction correct and I spend most of my life trying to live up to His example!
So "IF" James, Huffman, and Hubert were "zeros" as you label them, and as you say Jalen is much better than they were, why continue to evoke their names in reference to Jalen? You say you expect Jalen to have a very improved season and yet you question if he can "anchor" a final 4 team? Maybe you need to define "anchor" , it is as if you suggest the kid has to be Montross, Rasheed, or Big Brad for UNC to get to the final 4?
I will answer your question however, "IF" Jalen goes to that jumper consistently while still of course adding in the typical big man items, rebounds stick backs, passing to him on a hard cut to the rim, ect. Personally, I want to see him taking 10-15 shots a game and maybe 10 of those be jumpers. IF he does that, the reason that he can "anchor" a final 4 team is the effect his taking and hitting those jumpers has on everyone else. Because what his hitting those jumpers does is it clears out the lane, it forces defenders and make that a LONG defender, to follow him out of the paint, it frees guys like Cadeau, RJ, Jack, Drake, Seth to drive and NOT have that defensive rim protector there to hinder their finishes. I call Jalen's jump shot a "can opener" to the rest of our offense because it literally opens up our offense to have the option to drive or shoot. If you have not seen enough to realize by now that Jalen is really efficient with his shot taking then honestly basketball isn't a sport you need to be following.
Someone in this thread seemed to take issues when I referenced Jalen having a NBA level skill that could well be NBA lotto level, take issue all you want but that jumper of his is absolutely NBA lotto level, is the rest of his game that, not so sure but that jumper is pure gold. My concerns for Jalen is first, asking a kid that played 8mins a game as a soph to play 30 or more as a Jr is asking a lot and I am not going to bury my head in the sand on that point, it is very valid. The other is the foul trouble point is in my view as well very valid, it was very valid concerning Brice (what was it his JR season he struggled with fouls but the next season he was solid in that aspect)? Just a FACT that kids that know they are playing big minutes do not play with the same level of aggression as they did when getting less than 10mins a game, they learn to be careful with what they go for, they know that second first half foul is not going to work well for them. You play 8mins a game you don't really care if you pick up fouls, you take more risks than a guy that knows he has to play 30mins + a game.
Right now I see Jalen as abo9ut a 25mins a game guy max, my concern is when Jalen sits, not when he is in the game. And I will take it a step further, "IF" Jalen sticks with that jumper, he is in a FANTASTIC position to see near 20pts a game because you know defenders will want to roll off of him when he steps outside giving him clean looks. That means he gets a LOT of "practice court" level treys attempts (I define as shots where there is no defender that hinders or makes you have to adjust you shot), I feel he is a very least a guy that hits 50% of his wide open jumpers. For those that do not agree, he did that LAST season!
You want Jalen Washington shooting 10-15 shots per game. Fine if you think his offensive game is worthy of that. But just for comparison, Tyler Hansbrough averaged 13.7 FGA in his junior year (a career high).
I don’t want Jalen Washington shooting at the volume Tyler Hansbrough shot it. I know they’re different players. But 10-15 FGA is an extremely high number for any big man.
I’m not sure if the math adds up either.
If Washington plays 25 MPG, he’s probably going to be on the floor for about 45 possessions. Assuming UNC averages like 73-75 possessions/game. Out of those 45, there’s going to be some turnovers. 15 shot attempts in 40’ish possessions that end in a shot attempt is a pretty high total for a player who won’t have the ball in his hands a lot. It’s probably unrealistic
And it’s completely understandable to question a player who has been a fouling machine and has had difficulty defending bigger players.
I think he’ll have a productive year. I just don’t think he’s Dirk Nowitzki yet. Hopefully Jalen Washington being himself will be good enough for this team. I just have my doubts.
Eh, you’re entitled to your opinion about me and that’s fine. But I don’t think I’m being overly negative. I’ve said time and time again that I think Washington and Cadeau will have productive seasons.
I just think it’s important to mention previous takes. It’s the offseason so narratives are going to be overwhelmingly positive.
Andrew Jones is someone who has a lot of equity amongst fans (and deservingly so) so when he says a lot of positive things about Washington and what he can be, I think it’s valid to say he was also pretty bullish on Paxson Wojcik and he was very bullish on Jae’lyn Withers. And I think both of those players left a bit to be desired.
Maybe you don’t see it that was since players who play for UNC are good as long as they give it their all. I’m not really that way. They keep score for a reason. And now they get paid for a reason. But that’s just me.
So while it’s natural to be very optimistic in the offseason, I temper my expectations by saying I’ll wait to see what happens when the games count.
But I get it too. This is a message board. And I’m sure the people who cover the teams need some content to write about so they’ll make way too early predictions.
So maybe I could take myself a little less seriously.
Washington averaged 6.6 fouls per 40 minutes last season.
Lubin averaged 2.9 fouls per 40 minutes.
One guy currently knows how to play without fouling, and it isn't JWash.
Lubin averaged 2.9 fouls per 40 minutes.
One guy currently knows how to play without fouling, and it isn't JWash.
Honest question for you. Do you think wash would have fouled just as much, knowing he had to be on the court longer, or was needed to be in the game?
Talk about moving the goalposts! On the one hand you believe he is akin to BHuff and now you are feel he won't be Dirk! I am fine with living in the universe found between those two!
1. The fact remains that JWash has a plus skill in shooting; He has natural instincts + length for protecting the rim; he is healthy for an extended period for the first time in years; he showed marked improvement last season; he is a year older, smarter, and better conditioned; the team has more quality depth.
2. There is never a reason to cast past Tar Heels in a negative light until they do something heinous like WD or McNameless
3. I know myself well and I am fully aware that I am relentlessly positive/optimistic!
FTR: I have no opinion about you since I have never met you, but I do not like the negative tenor of your online persona's takes! Peeps find it very easy to hide behind the smoke screen of "objectivity". It is often the excuse of those who never say anything positive without qualifying it or immediately saying something negative! BTW: DS, G7 and I don't always agree, but their takes are always given with respect to our shared fandom! That is the difference, Sir!
1. The fact remains that JWash has a plus skill in shooting; He has natural instincts + length for protecting the rim; he is healthy for an extended period for the first time in years; he showed marked improvement last season; he is a year older, smarter, and better conditioned; the team has more quality depth.
2. There is never a reason to cast past Tar Heels in a negative light until they do something heinous like WD or McNameless
3. I know myself well and I am fully aware that I am relentlessly positive/optimistic!
FTR: I have no opinion about you since I have never met you, but I do not like the negative tenor of your online persona's takes! Peeps find it very easy to hide behind the smoke screen of "objectivity". It is often the excuse of those who never say anything positive without qualifying it or immediately saying something negative! BTW: DS, G7 and I don't always agree, but their takes are always given with respect to our shared fandom! That is the difference, Sir!
Yes, please begin taking yourself less seriously. Consider that you researched and linked TP’s comment
about Brandon Huffman from when? - he began his Carolina career in 2017 for crying out loud.
Don’t become Bluetoe from OOTB. 🤫
He wasn't out there hammering people to stop easy scores. He wasn't intentionally using his fouls. A big man would bully him under the basket and draw fouls on him. Or he'd get off balance and hit a guy.
This isn't Zayden High, who moves his feet pretty well, and you can argue some of his fouls were intentional. Washington legitimately struggles moving laterally, and often finds himself off-balance and falling down. He has major work to do on the defensive side of the ball (and in the weight room.)
All good info but you failed to answer the question. It’s easy I promise. I feel he could have tamed some of those fouls even in the situations you painted if he knew he couldn’t come out, or had to be depended on. Even then I would imagine he’ll be better at some of those things you pointed out.
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