Why would we not have been concerned that they went away from it to start with?
A few things...
- Thread starter gary-7
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Not just our guards, Leaky and Nance missed countless open cutters all season long.
As mentioned earlier, we were a poor passing team in general.
We should keep in mind that entering the portal doesn't guarantee a transfer. He is one I hope we can lure back.
That has been discussed ad nauseam, and mentioned in the OP. What's the point of rehashing it in direct response to a post about what happens next?
That may be true, but not many thought he would play much as a freshman. Maybe he did, but that should not have been a surprise. Good luck to him in finding a fit.
I absolutely love Simeon Wilcher’s game on both sides of the ball but that is a fact too he IS NOT A PG. My hope is that Cadeau comes early. I’m not a fan of kids reclassifying but he is already of age. If Cadeau comes early Hubert needs to hand him the keys from day one. With him running point we will be night and day better.
Definitely shooting is one of the keys if you're going to have the ball in your hands all the time. I think you can do well with a flawed shot so long as you can really break down your man off the dribble and pass capably. Thinking of guys like De'Aaron Fox; UK's offense was good with him at point even though he couldn't shoot bc he was excellent at driving and kicking to Monk/Bam.
I think Love is a fairly good penetrator (not as good as Fox); he's never developed good awareness of what to do after the initial drive though. He cleaned up the horrible floaters he had as a frosh but still takes a lot of questionable shots/passes. And then he adds lazy perimeter passes or forced threes.
RJ is not great at dribble drives, and too small to finish when he does get by his man. Him flying into center's chests and hoping to draw a foul is etched into my memory. He's obviously a good shooter, but needs to do a step back to create his own shot, which is a tougher play. Otherwise you need to pull out Bacot/Nance for a pick, but neither of them can roll (Bacot just doesn't have the lift) or pop so it's not a great action. RJ would be a solid off ball guard, but I think it's hard for him to have super high usage bc he can't get his shot off that easily (plus his defense...).
I share your concern about Seth. I just don't think his offense is playable if what we've seen is an accurate depiction. A smaller guard who can't shoot or play point doesn't really work.
I think Gary likes Dunn, but I am skeptical there too. Dunn has a decent shooting stroke and makes some effort plays on D, but he's very limited with the ball, upside down A/TO ratio, and too small to do much rebounding or help D.
Seth is 6'3" and Dunn is 6'5", that isn't small for either of the 2 back court positions? The thing with both these guys is they need consistent PT to develop, I think both lost a lot of confidence this season and need this off season to regain it. This is going to happen as long as Hubert stays with this Iron 5 notion and refuses to develop his bench, use em or lose em, already lost Nickel and should not have. I hope we don't lose either, I fear we will lose at least 1 of them. Players as talented as these 2 just should not be treated like Blue Steel and you expect top keep them.
Nickel will not be back, he jumped at the op to enter the portal as soon as he could, hard to blame him as little as he was allowed on the court. Should have developed him Hubert...
Caleb's driving is so strange to me. He's an athletic guy but doesn't seem it when he elects to drive. He prefers to eurostep rather than just go hard and challenge and defender at the rim. He struggles with timing and angles. He doesn't protect the ball well enough either when driving and often loses it. He also looks to avoid contact rather than initiate it and that's why he doesn't get foul calls as often as he should. He's a below average finisher at the rim. He is crafty at times passing the ball on drives but defenses started to realize that he struggles finishing and played the pass forcing him to make tough lay ups and he failed more times than not. Really strange given what seems to be high athletic ability.
Agree on RJ. His limitations have been discussed enough. Just too small to be super effective.
I don't know what to think of Trimble and Dunn. At times, they both look perfectly suited for this level of ball. Seth is a masterful defender, strong and athletic. Decent handle but not extra sure. He just has almost zero understanding of how to facilitate. But is that him or is that Hubert? And Dunn certainly looks the part - long and lean. His stroke looks nice but doesn't go in enough. He seems to have good timing and the intangible quality of being in the right place at the right time. But both of those guys have what I call the "specialist" syndrome. Neither have a well rounded enough game to demand significant time on the court but each looks to be super proficient in one or two areas. If you could mash them up to create one guy, he'd be a pretty good player.
I don't think Seth is really 6'3''. He looks and plays smaller. Sometimes guys overstate their height.
Dunn is fairly tall, but not very strong/long and doesn't have the functional athleticism IMO. His rebounding rate is super low for a true shooting guard, as are block/steals/assists. That all points to a pretty limited athlete, and we see him getting backed down by guards and not able to turn the corner on offense. The main skills I see from him are shooting and lack of boneheaded turnovers.
sad state of affairs when "lack of boneheaded turnovers" must be called out for a program like UNC
I do strongly agree with your statement that a PG does not have to be a high level scorer, a guy like Eddy Cota on our roster this past season and those results would have looked much better. I look at a guy like Trimble, whose offense is actually MUCH better than he showed this season, his jumper is the weak part of his game. Meaning, if you put him at the 2 with a weak jumper you are forcing him to play to his weak point rather than his strength. If your notion is to spread the floor you are not going to achieve that by placing a weak shooter without the ball in his hands, posted up behind the 3pt arch, his defender is just going to help off him. But put the ball in his hands and the defense has to commit to him, you do not leave a ball handling guard driver wide open so that he has no pressure because he will drive on you all day and can see his mates for easy slips, kicks, finish, and pass outs.
If anything I think we focus way to much on PG scoring when a better focus IMO would be the PG setting the table for his mates to get easy scores and he forces the defense to move. I think PGs should be more opportunistic scorers rather than featured scorers. Give me a Kendal Marshal any day of the week. That is not a knock on RJ, it is just that RJ is a 2 guard in a PG body, his game, his mind set, his approach is just not that of a PG, it is that of a 2. Problem is he is small for a 2, really small, heck he is small for PG now days and he just is not Ty Lawson quick or the magician TY was with the ball, or Ray and absolutely not Easy Eddy. RJ does not have those special PG traits of high basketball IQ (meaning always knowing where his mates are and knowing what type of pass they catch well and what they don't as 2 examples of basketball IQ). Not being quick, not being able to handle presses and traps with the dribble in tact, seeing a fast break op even before it has completely developed, reading how to pass a team mate open, being able to see the pass after his pass (combination passing), being able to handle your defensive assignment without needing help.
Just wanted to go back and add that some seem to think Wilcher is not a PG, not sure where that comes from, the kid plays the point now and he as well as his coaches believe he is a really good PG candidate for UNC, I see him as one of those very rare combos that is maybe more PG than 2, very rare in this day of combos everywhere. Trimble is NOT a combo, he is a PG, we misused him way to much at other positions this season, that was a mistake IMO.
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My main gripe was you said Love was a good penetrator and RJ moreso wasn't, when RJ finished around the rim better than Love.
You also stated how RJ can use the step back to create his own shot, but in the same turn said, he has trouble getting off his shot easily.
Also to saying our PGs shouldn't be scorers but facilitators... it kind of requires people who can score to facilitate to. We had to of easily had the worst 3pt % in the nation on wide open 3 pointers this year.
RJ had a higher percentage on close twos but Caleb took 50% more of them (124 to 82), despite RJ having the ball in his hands more. Part of that is Caleb's shot selection, but also I think it's harder for RJ to penetrate a set defense and score due to his lack of foot speed and size. I think Caleb is a better driver, he just has worse decision making once he gets by his man.
I definitely did not say PGs shouldn't be scorers. I said shooting is one of the keys to being a good PG, but it can be overcome with great driving skills. We just don't have anyone that can do either of those things that well.
You can have Ed Cota and Kendall Marshall type players, but they need to be surrounded by either really talented players or surrounded by shooting.
The data also shows that Roy's offenses were simply better (by a lot) when he had a PG who had some shot credibility.
In Kendall's 2 years, UNC's offensive efficiency:
2011: 114.9 (and this was after he was inserted into the starting lineup)
2012: 116.5
All other Roy teams that made at least the sweet 16:
2005: 122.5
2007: 121.0
2008: 122.9
2009: 123.1
2015: 121.2
2016: 124.3
2017: 121.6
2019: 120.8
But yes, give me Marshall over RJ everyday of the week as a PG. I don't think that trade turns us into a national title contender, but it makes us better.
My larger point is it does seem like there is a 1-to-1 correlation between a team's offensive efficiency and having a PG that can shoot it a little.
Look, this isn't about RJ --- the kid is a warrior and a dynamic scorer, but he is the ANTITHESIS of a PG. He plays (almost literally) with tunnel vision --- see basket - put ball in basket. He only facilitates by accident or designed play. In other words, he's a 5'10 2-guard.
If Cadeau doesn't reclass. I hope we can find a 6'3+ (actua)l PG in the portal who can guard the opposing 2, and move RJ off the ball.
I watched a6ft point guard today that would make a huge difference Kid from K State is a warrior and has great court vision. Heels have not had this for several years.
He went off today, deep bombs, reminiscent of how Caleb took over against UCLA last year.
And Isiah Wong and company just dropped a clinic in guard play on IU.
Bring in Cadeau for a reclass and play him with Davis and Wilcher.
It is a guards game now.
Pair the 3 with Bacot and an athletic stud 4 man, and lets go!
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