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AP Preseason All-America Team

dadika13 said:
He was on the ESPN list before the hand.

Tough to name someone to an All-American list when you know he's missing the first month. I'm more concerned with the All-American team at the end of the season.
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So Berry wont be playing until December? That's news to the rest of us.

And one could argue it's more difficult to name someone who hasn't played a game in college to an All-American list compared to the reigning Final Four MOP
 
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Prof C said:
So he would not make your top 5, pln2013? What does JBII need to do to make your top 5? Win a championship and be named MOP?
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Brunson and Trier are outstanding players. Both have strong arguments for first team. You can make one for Berry, too. There are a lot of good players in college basketball.
 
gary-7 said:
Utter idiots. Brunson is a nice player but Joel Berry is better in every phase of the game.
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Brunson scored more per possession on much better efficiency and assisted at a significantly higher rate. Plus his team is expected to be much better this year.

Berry was 5th on the team in pts/possession (4th among starters) and 4th on the team in assists/possession (2nd among starters) last year, and he was not the most impactful defender on the team. He is a very good player, but to act like calling him the 6th best player in the country is an injustice is super biased.
 
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pln2013 said:
Brunson scored more per possession on much better efficiency and assisted at a significantly higher rate. Plus his team is expected to be much better this year.

Berry was 5th on the team in pts/possession (4th among starters) and 4th on the team in assists/possession (2nd among starters) last year, and he was not the most impactful defender on the team. He is a very good player, but to act like calling him the 6th best player in the country is an injustice is super biased.
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Wow. You continue to be utterly and completely clueless about the actual game of basketball. SMDH.
 
pln2013 said:
I've actually never watched a game of basketball. I'm just making things up as I go along.
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Mate, the way you post it seems that way... or you're just fishing for an internet fight.

You're right, the stats don't favour the argument for Joel, that's why the eyeball test is so important... simply put, Berry controls the tempo for the team on both ends of the floor.
There isn't a stat for when an opposing player coughs up the ball after 8 seconds of in-your-face defence from Berry. There isn't a stat for Berry controlling the offence and making the pass which leads to an easy assist. There isn't a stat for his communication and organisation of the defense and there isn't a stat for how the team responds to it's floor leader picking himself up after another cheap-shot foul and, rather than complain, he just lifts his intensity and gives that 'angry stare'

So yeah, guys from other teams will get more votes.... and yet, while they were stuffing stats last season, Joel was playing on two bum ankles on his way to the most important stat - the championship.

Anyway, it's all pre-season voting crap..... just like how Barnes was preseason player of the year before he'd played a college game..... lucky they play the games, if they gave out the real hardware in November Dook would have won it all with the tripper as POY.....
 
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pln2013 said:
You do realize that there were multiple players on our championship team, right?
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You do realize only one player in the entire country was voted MOP of the F4? So yeah, that's a pretty good argument for being PRESEAESON AA. Like I said before, JB has made his case, everyone else is still trying to make one.
 
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gobblercalls said:
You do realize only one player in the entire country was voted MOP of the F4? So yeah, that's a pretty good argument for being PRESEAESON AA. Like I said before, JB has made his case, everyone else is still trying to make one.
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The FF is a two-game stretch, and the MOP is only going to come from the winning team. That's a terrible metric for determining the best players.

Kennedy should have won MOP anyway. We won the championship because of the defense Jackson and Pinson played on the wing and Meeks played inside, not because Berry carried us. We hid Berry on defense because of his ankles, and our offense was generally pretty terrible - and Berry was no exception.

You can absolutely make the argument that Berry should be first-team AA. He's an outstanding player. But FF MOP is not that argument, at least not by itself.
 
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pln2013 said:
The FF is a two-game stretch, and the MOP is only going to come from the winning team. That's a terrible metric for determining the best players.

Kennedy should have won MOP anyway. We won the championship because of the defense Jackson and Pinson played on the wing and Meeks played inside, not because Berry carried us. We hid Berry on defense because of his ankles, and our offense was generally pretty terrible - and Berry was no exception.

You can absolutely make the argument that Berry should be first-team AA. He's an outstanding player. But FF MOP is not that argument, at least not by itself.
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I agree with some of this, but Berry is the only one that could hit a shot outside of ten feet..he hit some crucial shots! The three towards the end being the most important...he had 22 and 6! I have to say that offensively Berry did carry us! Jackson and pinson played great defensively, as did Meeks down low, but without Berry we don't get close to winning that game
 
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CarolinaBlue5 said:
I agree with some of this, but Berry is the only one that could hit a shot outside of ten feet..he hit some crucial shots! The three towards the end being the most important...he had 22 and 6! I have to say that offensively Berry did carry us! Jackson and pinson played great defensively, as did Meeks down low, but without Berry we don't get close to winning that game
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Don't get me wrong, Berry was a big part of our win, and I'm a huge Berry fan overall. But Berry was our "least bad" offensive player against Gonzaga, and frankly he was just bad against Oregon.

Against Oregon he scored 11 points on 0-6 from 2, 2-8 from 3, and 5-9 from the line. That's bad. But Meeks and Jackson carried us through.

Against Gonzaga he scored 22 points on 3-6 from 2, 4-13 from 3, and 4-8 from the line. But we shot historically poorly from 3 as a team (4-27 !!!), so his offensive performance looks better by comparison. But it hardly showed he was a clear-cut All-American. If Jackson doesn't shoot 0-9 from 3, he wins MOP easily.

If we take Berry off the team, we most likely don't win - true. But the same was just as true - if not more so - for Jackson and Meeks.

None of this is meant to disparage Berry. He was clearly playing hurt. He clearly wasn't nearly as good as he was during the year because of his ankles.

But that's kinda the point. We won despite the fact that Berry was hidden on defense and was mostly a spot-up shooter on offense. Because our defense in the tournament was phenomenal. It was Gonzaga's worst offensive performance of their entire season by a comfortable margin. If Pinson and Jackson don't shut down elite guards and wings, we're not having this conversation, because we lose to Kentucky.

Again, my only point is this: You can make a good argument for Berry as a first-team AA this year. But "FF MOP" is not that argument.
 
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pln2013 said:
Don't get me wrong, Berry was a big part of our win, and I'm a huge Berry fan overall. But Berry was our "least bad" offensive player against Gonzaga, and frankly he was just bad against Oregon.

Against Oregon he scored 11 points on 0-6 from 2, 2-8 from 3, and 5-9 from the line. That's bad. But Meeks and Jackson carried us through.

Against Gonzaga he scored 22 points on 3-6 from 2, 4-13 from 3, and 4-8 from the line. But we shot historically poorly from 3 as a team (4-27 !!!), so his offensive performance looks better by comparison. But it hardly showed he was a clear-cut All-American. If Jackson doesn't shoot 0-9 from 3, he wins MOP easily.

If we take Berry off the team, we most likely don't win - true. But the same was just as true - if not more so - for Jackson and Meeks.

None of this is meant to disparage Berry. He was clearly playing hurt. He clearly wasn't nearly as good as he was during the year because of his ankles.

But that's kinda the point. We won despite the fact that Berry was hidden on defense and was mostly a spot-up shooter on offense. Because our defense in the tournament was phenomenal. It was Gonzaga's worst offensive performance of their entire season by a comfortable margin. If Pinson and Jackson don't shut down elite guards and wings, we're not having this conversation, because we lose to Kentucky.

Again, my only point is this: You can make a good argument for Berry as a first-team AA this year. But "FF MOP" is not that argument.
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Seriously, dude. That is the biggest crock of irrelevant nonsense I've ever seen. You manage to contradict yourself over and over.

And FF MOP --- with 2 ankles most guys wouldn't have even played on --- is in fact a hell of an argument for a returning player to be First team AA. And it ain't like it was isolated --- had we prevailed over Villanova he would've won it 2 damned years in a row. Good grief. Are you really that dense?
 
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Ozheelfan said:
Mate, the way you post it seems that way... or you're just fishing for an internet fight.

You're right, the stats don't favour the argument for Joel, that's why the eyeball test is so important... simply put, Berry controls the tempo for the team on both ends of the floor.
There isn't a stat for when an opposing player coughs up the ball after 8 seconds of in-your-face defence from Berry. There isn't a stat for Berry controlling the offence and making the pass which leads to an easy assist. There isn't a stat for his communication and organisation of the defense and there isn't a stat for how the team responds to it's floor leader picking himself up after another cheap-shot foul and, rather than complain, he just lifts his intensity and gives that 'angry stare'

So yeah, guys from other teams will get more votes.... and yet, while they were stuffing stats last season, Joel was playing on two bum ankles on his way to the most important stat - the championship.

Anyway, it's all pre-season voting crap..... just like how Barnes was preseason player of the year before he'd played a college game..... lucky they play the games, if they gave out the real hardware in November Dook would have won it all with the tripper as POY.....
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POTD.
 
gary-7 said:
Seriously, dude. That is the biggest crock of irrelevant nonsense I've ever seen. You manage to contradict yourself over and over.
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Can you be specific?

gary-7 said:
And FF MOP --- with 2 ankles most guys wouldn't have even played on --- is in fact a hell of an argument for a returning player to be First team AA. And it ain't like it was isolated --- had we prevailed over Villanova he would've won it 2 damned years in a row. Good grief. Are you really that dense?
Click to expand...

FF MOP comes from a two-game sample and is extremely dependent on your team.

Jackson (and Pinson, and Meeks) played the elite defense that allowed us to win despite being the team being horrible on offense, but he missed his 3s in the championship game. If he hits 2 or 3 of them, he wins MOP over Berry. Does that make Berry less of a player? Absolutely not.

Perhaps if you switched Trier with Berry, Trier wins FF MOP. Hard to say.

Yes, he would've won it in '16, too. Because he's really good. Which is why he's rated the 6th best player in the country by the AP.
 
pln2013 said:
Can you be specific?



FF MOP comes from a two-game sample and is extremely dependent on your team.

Jackson (and Pinson, and Meeks) played the elite defense that allowed us to win despite being the team being horrible on offense, but he missed his 3s in the championship game. If he hits 2 or 3 of them, he wins MOP over Berry. Does that make Berry less of a player? Absolutely not.

Perhaps if you switched Trier with Berry, Trier wins FF MOP. Hard to say.

Yes, he would've won it in '16, too. Because he's really good. Which is why he's rated the 6th best player in the country by the AP.
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Specific? I mean, do you actually read what you type? Y'know.... at first I thought @FlaTarHeel assigning you a dunce cap was a bit over the top. I'm rethinking that assessment.

And BTW, in contrast to all the utterly usesless stats you apparently feel the need to look up, there's only one that matters. For all the other excellent players we had last season, just look at how that team performed when JB was on the floor vs when he wasn't. Case closed. He is, quite simply, the best PG in college basketball and any "All-American" team that doesn't include him is frankly an absurdity.
 
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gary-7 said:
Specific? I mean, do you actually read what you type? Y'know.... at first I thought @FlaTarHeel assigning you a dunce cap was a bit over the top. I'm rethinking that assessment.
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So...you can't be specific?

gary-7 said:
And BTW, in contrast to all the utterly usesless stats you apparently feel the need to look up, there's only one that matters. For all the other excellent players we had last season, just look at how that team performed when JB was on the floor vs when he wasn't. Case closed. He is, quite simply, the best PG in college basketball and any "All-American" team that doesn't include him is frankly an absurdity.
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Part of Berry's on-off numbers come from the fact that Seventh was absolutely dreadful on offense. But also from the fact that Berry is very good, of course. Which is why the AP voted him the 6th best player in the country.

You don't need to convince me that Berry is a great player, you know. I think he's our best PG since Lawson.
 
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pln2013 said:
So...you can't be specific?

If you didn't read what I typed, your insults are rather baseless, no?



Part of Berry's on-off numbers come from the fact that Seventh was absolutely dreadful on offense. But also from the fact that Berry is very good, of course. Which is why the AP voted him the 6th best player in the country.

You don't need to convince me that Berry is a great player, you know. I think he's our best PG since Lawson.
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I don't have to be specific because the entire post was a contradiction. And just stop with that "6th best player" crap. That in and of itself is the absurdity.

Look, I know you like to fancy yourself as some sort of contrarian on here but posting stupid sh** is, well, just posting stupid sh**. Call that an "insult" if you want, but it is what it is.
 
gary-7 said:
I don't have to be specific because the entire post was a contradiction.
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You've spilled a lot of digital ink in this thread. Surely you can spare a bit more? I'd appreciate a few specific examples. They'd help me improve as a poster. Otherwise I'll continue in my stupid shit ways.
 
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