Are we missing a defensive specialist

[Ozheelfan]

Have to say this is a funny thread. We've gone from debating a lock down defender to focussing solely on the 3 and yet the key point to the argument has been touched on a few times without recognition:
Every team is different - year-by-year/team-by-team.
So what worked for the '05 team may not be as needed for the '16 team.

Does this team need a lock-down defender? Probably not.
What it does need is lock-down defence.

That happens when all team members are working together, talking, executing the defence the way they're taught and limiting the 'easy' shot.

The backcourt defence is much improved in the last few games and it'll be interesting to see how the front court goes if Kennedy comes back pain free (and hopefully mobile)

As for the '09 team, I remember the knock on them was poor defence. DSPN generated millions of clicks by writing how poor the team's defence was. How often did we hear "great offensively, questionable defensively" in reference to the '09 team.
But, as many of us remember, the '09 team went on to be pretty good by the end of the season, not with a 'lock-down' individual, but with very good team defence.

Oh yeah, I also agree that you've got to watch the games to see what's going on. All the stats in the world only help when matched with witnessing how the game plays out.

 

[gary-7]

Have to say this is a funny thread. We've gone from debating a lock down defender to focussing solely on the 3 and yet the key point to the argument has been touched on a few times without recognition:
Every team is different - year-by-year/team-by-team.
So what worked for the '05 team may not be as needed for the '16 team.

Does this team need a lock-down defender? Probably not.
What it does need is lock-down defence.

That happens when all team members are working together, talking, executing the defence the way they're taught and limiting the 'easy' shot.

The backcourt defence is much improved in the last few games and it'll be interesting to see how the front court goes if Kennedy comes back pain free (and hopefully mobile)

As for the '09 team, I remember the knock on them was poor defence. DSPN generated millions of clicks by writing how poor the team's defence was. How often did we hear "great offensively, questionable defensively" in reference to the '09 team.
But, as many of us remember, the '09 team went on to be pretty good by the end of the season, not with a 'lock-down' individual, but with very good team defence.

Oh yeah, I also agree that you've got to watch the games to see what's going on. All the stats in the world only help when matched with witnessing how the game plays out.

Good post, Oz... and although I'm hesitant to say it, some good folks on here aren't quite cognizant of exactly where our defense is good and/or bad/or in-between.
For example I see all the stressing about defending dribble-drive and ball screens, but the culprit (at least 90% of the time) has been from BEHIND, i.e., our Bigs failing to communicate or see man-and-ball.
I'm gonna say this straight up: Other than than the issues I just mentioned, we have some damned good defenders on this team. Justin has improved 200% over last season and is busting his ass out there (to the point where it may even be affecting his offense). Marcus is good, and he and JB work together beautifully at times... and if any of y'all still don't appreciate how damned good Joel Berry is defensively (on AND off the ball), well then I can't help ya

 

[DSouthr]

Good post, Oz... and although I'm hesitant to say it, some good folks on here aren't quite cognizant of exactly where our defense is good and/or bad/or in-between.
For example I see all the stressing about defending dribble-drive and ball screens, but the culprit (at least 90% of the time) has been from BEHIND, i.e., our Bigs failing to communicate or see man-and-ball.
I'm gonna say this straight up: Other than than the issues I just mentioned, we have some damned good defenders on this team. Justin has improved 200% over last season and is busting his ass out there (to the point where it may even be affecting his offense). Marcus is good, and he and JB work together beautifully at times... and if any of y'all still don't appreciate how damned good Joel Berry is defensively (on AND off the ball), well then I can't help ya

gary, you & I both know, our defense has improve dramatically since this season began, the Marcus/JB2 combination out front is a lot of fun to watch and their tandem work has seemed to bleed off on Nate/Theo/JJackson. Jackson has been named defensive player of the game in several games this season so yeah, 200% improvement is not over stating things,

For me the short comings this defense finds comes from our front court. Brice gets his offense rolling his defense tends to pick up, especially when he is not in foul trouble but when he struggles on the offensive end the fouls come and we are having to go to the bench for help. Meeks being hurt, not just the games he has been out but this injury has been a thing he has had since late oct/early nov, meaning it limited him even in the games he played. Fans clamored about his lack of intensity but a injury to a wheel on a big man will darn sure slow him down, how much of his play was marked by being hurt and how much was really a lacking of intensity, hard to say but of course it was a factor and my guess a large factor. His not even being able to practice for 3 weeks proves it was serious.

Then Hicks, as much as I enjoy watching him play, foul trouble has followed him and at some point he has had to back off. I don't think many would argue that with Meeks out that our by far best starting lineup would be Brice & Hicks at the 4 & 5 and a reasonable case could be argued for that even if Meeks is available based on Meeks play that we have seen this season. But with Meeks out Joel James has started and I believe that is 100% due to the foul trouble that Hicks and Brice have found themselves in. I love big Joel but I love him a lot more when he is on the bench and Brice & Hicks are in the game. May sound harsh but just living in reality.

My point is our front court has not gelled like our back court has on the defensive end. Communication is a big problem for sure but I also offer that fear of foul trouble and the constant of fear out even worse foul trouble is a big concern. It will help a ton getting Meeks healthy and back in the flow and maybe with a fire lite in his belly from having to watch so much and not be able to play. I would like to see Roy ease him back in rather than starting him in his first game back and it would really make me happy to see Brice & Hicks start knowing we can call on Meeks if one of those fellas picks up that early cheap foul that has caused them to back off a bit on the defensive end. Guards full their assignment in to the teeth of our bigs then our bugs have to step up and be the shot stopper/blocker but if they back off it makes our guards look like they blew their assignment. Our front court is MUCH better this season staying in front of their man and to me the most improved in that aspect this season has been Nate but in truth nate had the most improvement needed as well.

This team does not have Anthony Davis back there to swat away anything that comes close to the rim or 3 7footers like FSU had, other than Joel James our tallest player on roster is 6'9" Brice who can get up but is more a offensive minded guy. This team has to play team defense and communication is always a HUGE key but especially true if you do not have that monster eraser of defensive mistakes patrolling the paint. Communication, staying with focused intensity for 40mins, and aggression are our keys for this defense. If you ain;t got the eraser ya best not make a mistake! LOL

 

[DSouthr]

Good post, Oz... and although I'm hesitant to say it, some good folks on here aren't quite cognizant of exactly where our defense is good and/or bad/or in-between.
For example I see all the stressing about defending dribble-drive and ball screens, but the culprit (at least 90% of the time) has been from BEHIND, i.e., our Bigs failing to communicate or see man-and-ball.
I'm gonna say this straight up: Other than than the issues I just mentioned, we have some damned good defenders on this team. Justin has improved 200% over last season and is busting his ass out there (to the point where it may even be affecting his offense). Marcus is good, and he and JB work together beautifully at times... and if any of y'all still don't appreciate how damned good Joel Berry is defensively (on AND off the ball), well then I can't help ya

Just spent a long post agreein with ya so this one I am gonna slightly disgaree but only slightly. I do see a major problem with our ball screen defense, not really from the guards but from the big man up front defending it. Far to often the best screen is set by our own man trying to roll off and catch the screen setting big before he gets the wide open dish. and that is a timing issue on how far our big needs to hedge so our chaser can get back on the ball. If for example you watch Luke you realize we teach it properly but we don't always execute it properly. Our guards do a pretty darn good job staying with their man until they have to deal with the tight screen rub up top.

I like watching Jackson and Theo together and one of the main reasons I do is those 2 fellas can do a lot of switching off the screens, taking away the advantage. I also like our trapping just past half court, occupy the ball handlers focus doesn't let them get in to their set offense. I would like to see us do that more because Joel & Marcus are really good with it and Jackson & Theo do a really good job of hawking the passing lanes from it. I like making a team have to work and spend some shot clock before they can get in to their set offense.

The dribble drive, I hate that term, geez, it is penetration with the dribble and it has been done since that fella hung a peach basket up, it was not just invented by some fella that should be selling used cars rather than coaching basketball... That phrase & "rim run" are 2 phrases I could spend the rest of my life not hearing and be just fine.

 

[ChiShankCity]

gary, you & I both know, our defense has improve dramatically since this season began, the Marcus/JB2 combination out front is a lot of fun to watch and their tandem work has seemed to bleed off on Nate/Theo/JJackson. Jackson has been named defensive player of the game in several games this season so yeah, 200% improvement is not over stating things,

For me the short comings this defense finds comes from our front court. Brice gets his offense rolling his defense tends to pick up, especially when he is not in foul trouble but when he struggles on the offensive end the fouls come and we are having to go to the bench for help. Meeks being hurt, not just the games he has been out but this injury has been a thing he has had since late oct/early nov, meaning it limited him even in the games he played. Fans clamored about his lack of intensity but a injury to a wheel on a big man will darn sure slow him down, how much of his play was marked by being hurt and how much was really a lacking of intensity, hard to say but of course it was a factor and my guess a large factor. His not even being able to practice for 3 weeks proves it was serious.

Then Hicks, as much as I enjoy watching him play, foul trouble has followed him and at some point he has had to back off. I don't think many would argue that with Meeks out that our by far best starting lineup would be Brice & Hicks at the 4 & 5 and a reasonable case could be argued for that even if Meeks is available based on Meeks play that we have seen this season. But with Meeks out Joel James has started and I believe that is 100% due to the foul trouble that Hicks and Brice have found themselves in. I love big Joel but I love him a lot more when he is on the bench and Brice & Hicks are in the game. May sound harsh but just living in reality.

My point is our front court has not gelled like our back court has on the defensive end. Communication is a big problem for sure but I also offer that fear of foul trouble and the constant of fear out even worse foul trouble is a big concern. It will help a ton getting Meeks healthy and back in the flow and maybe with a fire lite in his belly from having to watch so much and not be able to play. I would like to see Roy ease him back in rather than starting him in his first game back and it would really make me happy to see Brice & Hicks start knowing we can call on Meeks if one of those fellas picks up that early cheap foul that has caused them to back off a bit on the defensive end. Guards full their assignment in to the teeth of our bigs then our bugs have to step up and be the shot stopper/blocker but if they back off it makes our guards look like they blew their assignment. Our front court is MUCH better this season staying in front of their man and to me the most improved in that aspect this season has been Nate but in truth nate had the most improvement needed as well.

This team does not have Anthony Davis back there to swat away anything that comes close to the rim or 3 7footers like FSU had, other than Joel James our tallest player on roster is 6'9" Brice who can get up but is more a offensive minded guy. This team has to play team defense and communication is always a HUGE key but especially true if you do not have that monster eraser of defensive mistakes patrolling the paint. Communication, staying with focused intensity for 40mins, and aggression are our keys for this defense. If you ain;t got the eraser ya best not make a mistake! LOL

So I know everyone's tired of me leaning on stats. But the numbers indicate that our D hasn't gotten much better lately. Situationally, we've probably shown we can get the key stops at key times.

That's our season numbers. The main things to look at are the defense stats. Compare that just to the conference season (small sample size for sure):

So, we're allowing 5 more points per 100 possessions in conference compared to the season. Our 3 pt defense has been poorer in terms of percentage, almost negating the fact we're allowing fewer. I think the percentage will regress a little and I'm happier at the fact we're allowing fewer 3's. But in terms of efficiency and every defensive factor, we're worse in conference. But IMO, I do think those percentages will regress.

Going forward, we have to foul less... And that's probably something everyone can agree on.

 

[ChiShankCity]

I have NEVER heard anyone suggest that you can only win by limiting how many treys the opposing team takes. I mean, I can not express how crazy that notion is. OK, so hey guys, here is how we win, every time you step across the half court line take a 3pt shot! They will not guard you way out to the half court stripe so you can shoot those all day long un-guarded! You will win because it is all about how many treys you take, who cares how many go in! RIGHT....LOL I am still pinching myself to make sure I didn't dream jung said that, but ya'll read it to yeah?

That's a way too simplistic way to look at what I'm saying. Do I think if we allow fewer 3 point shots it will benefit our D in the long run? Absolutely. But if I can compare what you're saying to the offensive end.... Let's say people think the most efficient spot to score from in the country is from the free throw line. So should every offense be designed to shoot free throw line shots? Should every offense be designed to make every play for an open look from the free throw line? Of course not... Offenses need to be diverse and need to be de-centralized.

But looking at our defense.... We're really bad in 1 area. 3 point defense percentage. Now, there's an argument to be made that those percentages will somewhat regress and they probably will. But if your weakness is defending the 3 and will be for the entire season, the only way to make it so defending the 3 will not kill you is to give us fewer 3 point shots.

It's a combination of that through half a season, we are bad at defending the 3 percentage wise... So we have a decent sample that we'll probably struggle defending the 3. That means we're more likely to allow more points the more 3 point shots we allow. If we allowed 32% on 3's, I could care less if we allowed 40% of our opponent's shots coming from 3. Which team does that? Xavier. They have a top 10 national defense.

Now, if you think that we're in reality a 33% 3 point defense masked in a 40% 3 point defense, then forget everything I'm saying. I just think we're probably a 37% 3 point defense, which is poor. So if that's the case, the best way to avoid 3's killing us is allowing fewer of them being shot in total.

Additionally, we have had an elite 2 point defense in conference and are a solid top 50 national defense in defending the 2. So we can defend the 2 pretty well... Doesn't it make more sense to force teams to shoot more shots where your strength is defensively?

 

[DSouthr]

So I know everyone's tired of me leaning on stats. But the numbers indicate that our D hasn't gotten much better lately. Situationally, we've probably shown we can get the key stops at key times.

That's our season numbers. The main things to look at are the defense stats. Compare that just to the conference season (small sample size for sure):

So, we're allowing 5 more points per 100 possessions in conference compared to the season. Our 3 pt defense has been poorer in terms of percentage, almost negating the fact we're allowing fewer. I think the percentage will regress a little and I'm happier at the fact we're allowing fewer 3's. But in terms of efficiency and every defensive factor, we're worse in conference. But IMO, I do think those percentages will regress.

Going forward, we have to foul less... And that's probably something everyone can agree on.

Look who we are now playing, as you stated IN CONFERENCE and that conference being the ACC. The competition is greater now, we play teams that know us and have better game plans against us. Of course better teams are going to score more points! While we did have a couple good teams before conference play all those stats also mix in the lesser teams that every power teams play in non-conference play. We have had non-conference games where Brice was guarded by 6'7-8" guys, FSU thru 7'3" and 7'5" at us. There are no bad ACC teams, they can all play and they are all talented, some more than others but there are no Garner Webbs in the ACC.

Look for example at Maryland, ALWAYS middle to bottom of the pack in the last what 30yrs with rare exception, but the leave year before last for the Big 10 and all the sudden they were pre-season top 3 in the country? That shows you the relative over all strength of the ACC. You can not judge the over all strength of a conference by a early season head to head, you judge it by how teams come together later in season. Teams don't really gell early on, they come together late season, that is when you really see what a team can do.

That is the issue I have with your stat look at trying to explain out comes, you are trying to call things apples to apples when in fact you are actually trying to compare apples to grapefruits. You are not often going to see a Javon Felix that catches fire with hitting treys with hands in his face, XRMs nailing 45ft treys on the move, or UNC give up a late 16pt lead because they took their foot off the peddle and couldn't find it again.

There have been a LOT of bad 3pt shots taken against us that went in, a bad shot with a good result is still a bad shot and the type of shot defenses all across the country want the opponents to shoot. Example, XRM hit a 45ft jumper while on the move with a full shot clock, had no rebounding help had he missed, shot went in for a trey, good result but a really bad shot by any definition. Trust me, we all had a great lesson in bad shots from some of our own players last season, Lmac's heat checks fit that definition real well...

 

[ChiShankCity]

Look who we are now playing, as you stated IN CONFERENCE and that conference being the ACC. The competition is greater now, we play teams that know us and have better game plans against us. Of course better teams are going to score more points! While we did have a couple good teams before conference play all those stats also mix in the lesser teams that every power teams play in non-conference play. We have had non-conference games where Brice was guarded by 6'7-8" guys, FSU thru 7'3" and 7'5" at us. There are no bad ACC teams, they can all play and they are all talented, some more than others but there are no Garner Webbs in the ACC.

Look for example at Maryland, ALWAYS middle to bottom of the pack in the last what 30yrs with rare exception, but the leave year before last for the Big 10 and all the sudden they were pre-season top 3 in the country? That shows you the relative over all strength of the ACC. You can not judge the over all strength of a conference by a early season head to head, you judge it by how teams come together later in season. Teams don't really gell early on, they come together late season, that is when you really see what a team can do.

That is the issue I have with your stat look at trying to explain out comes, you are trying to call things apples to apples when in fact you are actually trying to compare apples to grapefruits. You are not often going to see a Javon Felix that catches fire with hitting treys with hands in his face, XRMs nailing 45ft treys on the move, or UNC give up a late 16pt lead because they took their foot off the peddle and couldn't find it again.

There have been a LOT of bad 3pt shots taken against us that went in, a bad shot with a good result is still a bad shot and the type of shot defenses all across the country want the opponents to shoot.

Fair. The in conference stats aren't adjusted compared to the regular season. I don't think the teams we've played great competition in the ACC.

Regardless, I think it's alarming that we're not defending the 3 better and we're fouling at a significantly higher rate. And the tougher competition hasn't really affected our offense.

 

[DSouthr]

Fair. The in conference stats aren't adjusted compared to the regular season. I don't think the teams we've played great competition in the ACC.

Regardless, I think it's alarming that we're not defending the 3 better and we're fouling at a significantly higher rate. And the tougher competition hasn't really affected our offense.

jung, another point you are missing is that we force tempo to a up and down game, means we get and give more shot attempts than most teams. Well of course the more attempts means more makes. It is like trying to say UVa, a team that goes out of their way to slow tempo and stretch the shot clock is a better 3pt defensive team than a team that than a UNC team that ramps tempo up and gets shots up early in the clock. Sure you are going to have more attempts vs us, you have the ball more. But the other side of the coin, we have the ball more to and we are scoring in bunches.

Because we go on strong scoring strings we tend to get opponents in a hole, last year we tended to get ourselves in a early hole and had to dig out, we took much worse shots last season. We are taking clean shots good shots much more now and it is showing by the fact that we don't look up 10mins in a game and see UNC down by 14. It is more we see UNC up by 14 and the opponents begin to launch some border line desperation treys to try to cut in to our lead. That means the trey attempts increase but the final results have been good for us.