See, I would agree with you most years, but this Dook team, even without Bagley, is not a typical Dook team. They normally have 4 shooters on the court at a time. This year Trent and OConnell have been the only reliable shooters on the team. This isnt the typical Dook team that has a Kennard, Matt Jones, Scheyer, Tatum, etc. Just like this year isn't a typical UNC team. And like someone else said above, they havent even gone small, they've just given Bolden more PT
Bagley out for a month???
- Thread starter MRUNC
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See, I would agree with you most years, but this Dook team, even without Bagley, is not a typical Dook team. They normally have 4 shooters on the court at a time. This year Trent and OConnell have been the only reliable shooters on the team. This isnt the typical Dook team that has a Kennard, Matt Jones, Scheyer, Tatum, etc. Just like this year isn't a typical UNC team. And like someone else said above, they havent even gone small, they've just given Bolden more PT
While I agree that Duke has been known as a "3 point shooting team" in MOST years, it's not always the case. K plays to his strengths.......there are examples of when K fed the post a lot (Okafor, Brand, Boozer, etc.) And this year Duke has thrown the ball in the post more than I've ever seen. So no, I don't think K is intentionally sitting Bagley out so that Duke can bomb 3's as you are suggesting.
You realize there's like 15 years in between the guys you named. What happened in that time span?
I didn't watch the game last night so did Bolden get many touches last night or did he just clean up the offensive glass after Allen and Trent was shooting threes all night?? Or was he the primary screen setter for the guards to shoot off of?? Bagley is not going to set screens all night for Allen or Trent.
To be fair the only decent big man they had between Boozer and Okafor was Shelden Williams and he wasn't even really that good. McRoberts was a bust and no big man wanted to be coached by Wojo
Right. k is obviously the greatest recruiter the game has ever seen so why did he struggle recruiting better bigs then?
he didn't do anything last night, like you said Allen and Trent were hot from 3. He played pretty good against GT though
Well, one Wojo was their "big men coach" and two, I think it's more Capel than K convincing them to come and set screens and rebound
And he is going to do that this year from here on out mark it down if Allen is better and they are hitting from the outside. How many post plays happen in last two games vs Kick and shoot or just pull up and shooting from outside K got his butt kicked at the Dean Dome and he has had enough he is going back to what he knows and that ain't post play!!!
Bull crap on that last part lol. We done did that I will take a weaker team at HIS.
Fixed it for ya.
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Wow - JB's 13 min a game added up to 26 wins for a "not good" team!
$10 says within 2 years Gary will remind us how JB cured cancer as a soph.
CC
While it's hard to feel sorry for Tripper, the games I've watched he's in an uncomfortable spot with 4 freshmen to wrangle and having less space to operate. Having one Big just works better for them.
Wow - JB's 13 min a game added up to 26 wins for a "not good" team!
$10 says within 2 years Gary will remind us how JB cured cancer as a soph.
CC
Haven't been around for a while, but I guess the Gary-Berry affair is a bit of a running joke.
In his defense, Joel Berry's departure will be a sad day for all of us. Sadder than we can imagine right now, I fear.
Man, I have to agree with ya here, there is no way K is sitting Bagley and using the injury as a cover story, I could believe the Bags camp shut it down before I believed K did so. There is not a coach in the nation that would not LOVE for Bagley to be on their team (including Roy, K, and Kalipari) and want him to play as long as he possibly could. Simple truth is he is a weapon that makes any team that has him better by a lot, this Tar Heel would much rather face duke at duke and he not be on the floor than his being in that starting line up, not gonna lie, I would be happy to see duke weakened and our ability to take them down again increased. Having one of the top 3 to be drafted in the next NBA draft is a strong advantage for duke, not having him does not make them harder to beat.
I am a UNC fan and I am not going to sit here and lie to ya, ANYTHING that weakens that duke team puts us in a better situation to beat them and beating duke, well I take that any way I can get it. If their entire starting line was out do ya really think I would enjoy beating them by 30 any less? Hint, no I would not because if the shoe were on the other foot dukies would celebrate it just as hard no matter how weakened we may be. Yeah, I remember when we lost our big time center for the season IN a game vs duke and it was a close game that duke won and I didn't notice any lack of duke enjoying that win even thou our guy went down for the rest of the season. Bottom line is I will take a win over duke no matter how it happens because history really does not care how it happens.
If Jalek doesn’t return, we’re in deep crap at the point position next year.
Deep!
Deep!
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Yep!!! I think Roy needs to find another point guard type player on the roster now and start playing him some minutes maybe see what Platek can do
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I am not one to run down UNC players or recruits. That said, from what I have seen of Jalek so far, though I DO hope he can come back, I am not sure he was going to be our answer at PG as early as next year. As always, I would LOVE to be wrong about that. I hope he can come back and I hope he is unbelievably good!
I honestly think we might be in trouble at PG next year even if Jalek is able to return and play, unless Roy pulls some kind of magnificent rabbit out of his hat.
I think White, Woods, and Andrew can handle the PG spot. I'm sorry but Felton didn't do anything to impress me this year besides the Ohio St game.
The numbers spoke for themselves. We were a mediocre team while playing one Guard. We were a very good team with two. Fact. And it was about having a legit 2-Guard on the floor when Marcus moved over as well as JB being really good. The difference in performance with an actual backcourt on the floor that season was astounding. Even with Nate occupying one of those positions it was way better than with only one Guard on the floor.Wow - JB's 13 min a game added up to 26 wins for a "not good" team!
$10 says within 2 years Gary will remind us how JB cured cancer as a soph.
CC
As talented as he is, UK starting Knox at the 2 makes about as much sense as trying to start JJ at the 2 here as a freshman (or Tokoto by default). And BTW, a loaded AZ team was trying the same thing back when we were and they fizzled as well.
I know you're busting my chops but my point was that this "positionless" narrative only goes so far. UK is enduring the consequences that we endured 3 years ago. And oh, had that 13 minutes for Joel been doubled we might well be talking about 3 straight FFs instead of 2 ..
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Agree. We saw zero from felton this year that makes me miss anything he did. A lot of people have been clueless and used the UNC point guard freshman growing pains and comparing him to Ty and his uncle, who both averaged no less than 10 and 5 as first year players. Jalek averaged 10 and 5 as well. 5 minutes played and 10 turnovers and 10 blown defensive assignments per game.....
People are panicking , Hell Theo could get us through some games at point guard this year,, Surely White can..
Wow - JB's 13 min a game added up to 26 wins for a "not good" team!
$10 says within 2 years Gary will remind us how JB cured cancer as a soph.
CC
Gary has to be related to the Berry family . . LOL
It took JB his entire freshman year to get to the level that Roy trusted him to perform in a manner that satisfied our Coach. He struggled big time as a frosh PG in Roy's system . . as do most freshman running his system.
Gary will have you believe that JB was a Godsend to us his first year . . it's the furthest thing from the truth.
I love JB too, but, he was no freshman Paige . .
Stick with your narrative, but he most certainly was ready. Paige got thrown into the fire because of unexpected attrition and did pretty well, JB would have easily have done the same or likely better.
No but they also don’t play on the perimeter either. Your point was that Duke is better without Bagley bc we were only playing 1 big and spacing things out for more shooters. I was simply refuting that Duke still has 2 bigs clogging the paint, 1 good three point shooter, and one streaky three point shooter. None of that changes with Bagley on the bench.
Well then explain Allen issues?? He went off in MSU game with Bagley on the bench hurt then pretty much since then has not done much at all then last two games he is the best shooter Dook has on the floor while guess who is on bench so seems like to me one kinda does have something to do with the other?? If he was in a slump seems like he has had plenty enough games to shoot his way out of it by now heck who knows maybe you are right and I am wrong
Billy, you and I have butted heads over this before, but I'm always happy to have a civil discussion, so I'll lay out what I stand by on this subject and move on.
Marcus also struggled (as all freshman PGs do here) when he was thrown into the fire, and Joel would've certainly had bumps as well had he started. To use your term, Marcus "got there" and was good by the end of his first year, and excellent as a Sophomore --- and since JB was as ready for that job as any freshman who's ever come through here, that would have been his trajectory as well.
Our starting lineup was dysfunctional in 2014-15 because Paige was the only legit Guard on the floor (not to mention the only 3-pt threat that scared anyone and the only credible ball-handler), and consequently poor Marcus got the crap beat out of him physically while opponents packed it in on our Bigs
When Berry would come in everything immediately changed for the better for two reasons: 1. Now there were double the ball-handlers and outside shooting threats (and thus better spacing), and 2. JB was already very good at being a PG and Marcus could play a helluva mean 2. JB and Marcus were often magic together from the get-go (size be damned) and nearly always kicked our offense into high gear... and of course that was the backcourt that would lead us to the Final Game the following season.
Fact is, Joel didn't go through some magical transformation after his freshman season. He came to Chapel Hill as ready as one can be to run this system, and given the opportunity would have done just that as a starter, albeit taking his lumps (just like every frosh PG who started from game-1 did, from Phil to Kenny to Ray to Marcus) and come through with flying colors in the end, just like those guys did.
The only thing that not starting Joel that season accomplished was to merely delay the inevitable, and unfortunately kept that particular team from reaching its full potential. And although you may not want to believe this, I can tell you that was something that was quite apparent to some key team members and by February of that season became a source of dissension --- not from JB, but from teammates who knew how much better they were when he was on the floor.
But hey, that's water under the bridge, and now in 2018 we're obviously all thankful Joel returned for his Senior campaign, and who knows?... had he started from game-1 as a Freshman he may have already left, so there's that.
At this point, as a UNC fan I'm just gonna ride this season for all its worth while he's here, because the minute Joel Berry announced he was coming back we suddenly had a legit chance to do something special in the post-season again.
No, my points ITT were #1 that Bagley is a black hole, and then yeah, there was more space without him. Were they still playing two Bigs? Yes, much of the time, but not always, but even when they were the guy taking his place wasn't stopping the ball and was a willing screener opening up lanes.
Obviously you'll not see me making excuses for Tripper, but I think it's fair to say he has been hindered playing with those 4 frosh. Duval is talented and sometimes spectacular but undisciplined and let's be honest, ain't great at spacing from the 1. Trent is usually busy hunting his shot. That leaves Tripper as the de facto wrangler, and throw in a talent like Bagley demanding the rock, I can see that making it harder to get into the flow (plus I think Carter is under-utilized with Bagley around)
But hey, you watch your guys way more than I do. That's just what I see as an outsider.
Yep . . Marcus struggled, as did Raymond, Ty, Derrick, Kenny and Ed.
Phil was the most productive freshman backcourt player that I can ever recall . . thankfully, he had Kuester to assist him in so many ways.
Joel just wasn't ready in that Coach didn't trust him enough to give him the reins to the team.
We'll just agree to disagree . .
I love JB, he's another in the long line of prolific UNC point guards, he guided us, carried us to another Title . . I will truly miss him next year. the man is legendary as far as I regard him.
Just my thoughts . . I'll respect yours.
Phil was the most productive freshman backcourt player that I can ever recall . . thankfully, he had Kuester to assist him in so many ways.
Joel just wasn't ready in that Coach didn't trust him enough to give him the reins to the team.
We'll just agree to disagree . .
I love JB, he's another in the long line of prolific UNC point guards, he guided us, carried us to another Title . . I will truly miss him next year. the man is legendary as far as I regard him.
Just my thoughts . . I'll respect yours.
^^True on both counts, and another example of a very successful two-PG backcourt. Damn, I loved watching those guys together growing up. I'm sure you remember Jon running the 4 Corners brilliantly in his own right when Phil was hurt.
Amen . . dayum, I didn't think you were as ancient as I.
The numbers spoke for themselves. We were a mediocre team while playing one Guard. We were a very good team with two. Fact. And it was about having a legit 2-Guard on the floor when Marcus moved over as well as JB being really good. The difference in performance with an actual backcourt on the floor that season was astounding. Even with Nate occupying one of those positions it was way better than with only one Guard on the floor.
As talented as he is, UK starting Knox at the 2 makes about as much sense as trying to start JJ at the 2 here as a freshman (or Tokoto by default). And BTW, a loaded AZ team was trying the same thing back when we were and they fizzled as well.
I know you're busting my chops but my point was that this "positionless" narrative only goes so far. UK is enduring the consequences that we endured 3 years ago. And oh, had that 13 minutes for Joel been doubled we might well be talking about 3 straight FFs instead of 2 ..
I think you are spot on with the KY point and the 2 PG comment for the '15 UNC team. I just found the JB statement to be a bit of hyperbole and yes I was busting your chops.
CC
UNexpected attrition? We had Dexter and as I clearly recall, myself and many others clamored for PJ to start at the 2 because Paige didn't begin that season on fire by any means and PJ was widely considered our best outside shooter. PJ ended up starting later season at the 4 and Paige began to heat up about mid way thru that season but Dexter was the PG and had a pretty solid season coming back from that knee injury. Now Paige's soph season he was PG by default and Britt became our 2 by default doe to PJ and Lmac's off court issues.
Joel was a reasonable option to start as a frosh but when you consider that Nate really was not a PG and Paige frankly was more of a 2 than a 1, it makes you wonder why Joel didn't day 1 start or even start at all. I know, he was slated to start in Jan but injury and then sickness ended that but to say he was day 1 ready to start is questionable considering how it was really Britt he had to beat out for the starter role and wasn't able to early on. Now I felt he could have, said so many times but Roy elected to not start him early or late and Roy works with his players every day, kinda puts him more a position to know than any of us, saying that nicely.
Just a heads up for folks worried about the point next season, many may not agree but don't be shocked if Jalek is not back that our starter is the kid running the point for our scout team right now, baby Jet can play and is more a traditional PG that looks to distribute and may be a better option than 7th or Coby (Coby can give us some minutes at the 1 but really, he is a 2 and could play some 3 in a small ball look set for shooters.
Yeah, this thread was about Bagley being out for a while? I rewatched the duke game, i really didn't see him get hurt or seem as if he were hurt, kinda strikes me as odd that all the sudden he was hurt in that game so bad that he was held out of their last 2 games. Also odd is now we hear that as many as 2 dozen teams could be in trouble due to the FBI investigation? Could the 2 things be linked or could the Bagley camp feel he is getting a little worn down and that maybe they save him for a NCAA run or even hold him till the draft because he has nothing to gain by further playing for duke? I suspect we see him play for duke again but this mystery injury seems very odd...
I think he was more referring to Kendall Marshall leaving after 2 years when pretty much everyone expected he'd be here for 4 years
As soon as I saw the FBI investigation Update I immediately wondered if Bagley was on the bench due to fear from the dook staff. I also wondered about Bagley or his camp making the decision to sit him, for whatever time frame they see fit. And hey, if Kay doesn't like it, what's he gonna do? Bench him in the NBA next year? Pretty sure his reach doesn't extend quite that far.
That is definitely what's happening.
