Daily Drop: Is It Time for a Referendum on Hubert Davis?
With so much talk about Hubert Davis and his future at North Carolina, we offer our take in this Daily Drop
Daily Drop: Is It Time for a Referendum on Hubert Davis?
- Thread starter andrew jones
- Start date
From an X's and O's perspective, i'm not sure HD is what we need. I believe most of our success under HD was more about the talent that got us over. A roster like we have currently will expose the level of coaching and I believe he has fallen short.
Andrew, I agree that Hubert has to be given the rest of the year. If recruiting improves, which is possible, he should probably return next year. I know that things have not gone very well for UNC lately in bball but he might be able to turn things around. I certainly hope so. Anyway, thanks for the honest assessment.
That is where I seem to be moving to. I think, if this moves the way I now think it will, a ton of what Hubert needs to improve on in Xs & Os will be greatly helped. The old phrase "fake it til you make it" comes to mind, Calipari has made a HOF career over doing just that and he has never "made it".
The only real difference between Hubert and Schyer right now inmy opinion is the talent level that duke has and the huge assist of a large staff that helps him in every way to win games, outside of assistant coaches and Hubert has very little of that. Feel like I could make a compelling case to allow these staff changes to fully be in place and then access Hubert's ability, like they change coaches in the NBA, the support staff says relatively the same.
HD needs to get at least 2 starting transfers who can play defense and stroke the 3 ball. Those players need to be in the 6-4 to 6-6 range, imo. Best wishes to our staff...🏀✨
So we follow your advice, AJ, and let Hubert finish the last 9 games. I'm OK with that.
Let's assume the team performs about as expected down the stretch - 7 wins, give or take.
Then what?
Does he then deserve to stay coach for the ACCT?
Does he then deserve to stay coach during the portal?
And how can you pull the plug after the portal? If Hubert is coach in the portal, he's coach next year.
My own take is, yes, he gets to stay coach through the ACCT (and beyond if there is a beyond). But no, he does not deserve to be our coach in the portal unless he has turned the team around.
It's not my call, but if it was, I'd tell him he must make the NCAAT to keep his job. Maybe have to win at least 1 game in the NCAAT.
Let's assume the team performs about as expected down the stretch - 7 wins, give or take.
Then what?
Does he then deserve to stay coach for the ACCT?
Does he then deserve to stay coach during the portal?
And how can you pull the plug after the portal? If Hubert is coach in the portal, he's coach next year.
My own take is, yes, he gets to stay coach through the ACCT (and beyond if there is a beyond). But no, he does not deserve to be our coach in the portal unless he has turned the team around.
It's not my call, but if it was, I'd tell him he must make the NCAAT to keep his job. Maybe have to win at least 1 game in the NCAAT.
One more preference. If we fail to make the NCAAT but are offered the NIT, we damn well better go to the NIT. Whether Hubert is coach or not.
I definitely think it’s bush league tacky to fire a coach during the season who hasn’t done anything wrong or gotten into trouble.
I think Hubert's pretty safe for next season. Unless they finish .500 overall this season, he'll be the HC next season.
Regardless, I think the process of Hubert being able to "save his job" if he makes the NCAA Tournament is a pretty flawed one. There are 37 at larges right (assuming UNC doesn't win the conference tournament)? I don't think there's much difference if UNC is the 36th best team and gets in vs the 40th best and gets left out. This is more of a process thing for me and to overly skew his job security based on being on the right vs wrong side of the bubble is a really flawed process.
The following was not part of your post. It's more of a response to the podcast episode on this thread.
Also, I'm not sure if any reasonable fan is demanding Hubert's firing during this season. That's not going to accomplish much. So the subject of the podcast episode was a bit puzzling for me. I think most fans want the season to play out, but if the season ended today, this is their opinion.
Some of the defense is irrelevant for Hubert and his job security (and I emphasize in my opinion).
"This man has given so much of his time to this school. He loves this program." - Doesn't affect winning.
"He played [at UNC]." - Doesn't affect winning
"His uncle was a great player at Carolina." - Doesn't affect winning
"Hubert has been around the game for 4 decades." - Maybe affects winning.... Maybe doesn't?
A mention of the 1976 Olympics - Doesn't affect winning today
So my concern is there's a lot of arguments that don't have to do with a whole lot on the basketball court taking shape. And don't be mistaken, the staff changes and directing some of the blame to that is a way for Hubert to protect himself. He has every right to do that as well. Maybe the difference between this being a well coached program and what we've seen for the better part of 6 seasons now is a General Manager and bigger staff. I have my doubts but Hubert's going to get the opportunity to prove his case.
It wasn't a defense but more what people who matter think and why they'd like him to be successful. It makes for a goodf story but only if he gets the job done.
I respect your opinion, but disagree. Where do you draw the line? And when do you draw the line?
Unless you are simply rejecting setting any standards for Hubert to keep his job, I think telling Hubert NOW what's expected of him is better than giving him a free pass through the 2026 season.
Being head coach of the famed UNC basketball program is NOT A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!
If you agree that it's reasonable to set standards, and reasonable to set them now rather than dragging our heels and leaving Hubert in limbo, then the question is what standard to set. If you disagree with making the NCAAT the standard, what standard would you set?
ETA: I do agree, however, that Hubert will be our coach next season. He'd have to crash and burn pretty badly for anything else. And I don't actually disagree. He's being given more staff and more money. Unless you are sure he'll still fail, you should give him a chance to use those tools.
A while back, I stated my belief that the Wake game was critical for us. Not the most important or hardest game ahead at that time, but potentially a make-or-break game for the season. At that time, we were comfortably in the Big Dance (an 8 seed, iirc) and Pomeroy ranked us #28 going into that game. Now we're #39 and on the wrong side of the bubble.
Sure, we might beat Clemson and Duke but I'm not counting on it. From today's perspective, Saturday's home rematch against Pitt looks like a must win game.
If we win over Pitt (and we are favored because Pitt is also on a skid and its a home game) the next make-or-break game looks like @FSU.
I wonder if the announcement of Hamilton's retirement will energize his team or demoralize them?
Sure, we might beat Clemson and Duke but I'm not counting on it. From today's perspective, Saturday's home rematch against Pitt looks like a must win game.
If we win over Pitt (and we are favored because Pitt is also on a skid and its a home game) the next make-or-break game looks like @FSU.
I wonder if the announcement of Hamilton's retirement will energize his team or demoralize them?
A couple of zeros I feel pretty confident throwing out…
1) 0% chance Hubert is fired before season’s end (I don’t think Hubert’s the guy, but as an AA player here and 10+ years on the bench, he should absolutely not be treated that way).
2) 0% chance we make the NCAAT (assuming we lose again to Duke, we shouldn’t be in with 1 Q1 win).
There’s very little chance Hubert does anything the rest of the season (go 8-1, 4-5, even win ACCT) that should change anyone’s stance. I think he’ll be back next year no matter what, but the heat turns up to 100 the day the season ends. From that day forward is where he’ll save himself or begin to seal his fate.
1) 0% chance Hubert is fired before season’s end (I don’t think Hubert’s the guy, but as an AA player here and 10+ years on the bench, he should absolutely not be treated that way).
2) 0% chance we make the NCAAT (assuming we lose again to Duke, we shouldn’t be in with 1 Q1 win).
There’s very little chance Hubert does anything the rest of the season (go 8-1, 4-5, even win ACCT) that should change anyone’s stance. I think he’ll be back next year no matter what, but the heat turns up to 100 the day the season ends. From that day forward is where he’ll save himself or begin to seal his fate.
No WW, not what at least I am saying. What I see is some needed moves that take this program in the direction of the future rather than being stuck on a holding pattern of the past. Simply put, hiring another coach and having him do the job the same way Hubert has had to is a recipe for continued slippage of our historic place in the sport.
It is about getting Jimmy and Joe to commit to UNC and what ever it takes to make that happen. X & Os are important but the guys executing those X & Os is far more important. FACT, Hubert Davis is the very same Hubert Davis that coached UNC last season, oh gosh, so he can win games when he has the talent?
Example, just 1 aspect of what Hubert has been exclusively responsible for was in the last portal season, he had to access all the talent he was interested in and then had to assign a $$$ amount that he felt they were worth. Did we hire Hubert to be an talent appraiser, similar to a home appraiser when the key component it placing a monetary numeric value on a a player? Did we hire a coach or a accountant? What is being discussed is building out a staff, very similar to what duke has done that takes that stuff away from the coach, just 1 example of MANY! Duke has a monster advantage right now before we even look at who plays in a game, we are beaten up by their front office way before a game is played, we have to even that back up.
I question, does it not make sense, to get this "front office" built and in place and then see if Hubert can produce wins on the court with the higher levels of talents that "front office" allows him to bring in. If he can't, I will be glad to lead the march to fire him but what if he has seasons like last season and better? Calipari, in my view is maybe the worst coach in D-1 ball but he has built a hall of fame career by being able to have great talent, it does not take a great coach to have great talent but it darn sure takes great talent to make a coach look great.
I ask can Hubert in time grow in to a great coach, I don't know that answer. What I do know is that Dean had to grow in to being the coach he was, he got lucky with some NY guys that bought him the time to develop in to the coach he ended his career as, K at duke, same thing. I don't know if Hubert can, he may be worth the try. I am not saying keep Hubert or fire Hubert, I am waiting til we have played our last game this season before I figure that out in my mind, we have games left to play. This season so far feels to me really strangely like Hubert's first season with us, many this time of the season were screaming we made a mistake hiring Hubert, funny how no one was saying that after we played our last game that season?
Hubert has been to one Final Four. Played for the National Championship in year one. In year two UNC did not get a Tournament invitation. However, the Tar Heels DID Win 20 games that seaon. Simply not a terrible season. Last season UNC was a One Seed in the NCAA Tournament. We lost to Alabama in 4 Overtimes early in the season. So then, Alabama gets put squarely in The UNC path in the round of 16. We fought hard and lost by a mere 2 points. This year has been a real test against too many Top Ten Teams. We have several one score losses to teams in the Top Ten, that are ranked much higher than UNC. Couple that with Zayden High being unable to play and we have been getting killed on the inside. No excuses above.All facts included. Hubert Davis can Coach and UNC would be stupid to let him go, imo...
I don't know if you have watched the recent pod cast with AJ & Davis Sisk, if not you really should. Hard for me to see anyone watch that pod cast and come away feeling Hubert is doing a great job with the Xs & Os. Just 1 example, guards rather than looking for keys for their options off the BHOs they just plow ahead every time? Just head down and asking, is that a wind mill Don Quixote, CHARGE! LOL
Sisk makes a great point, we cross half court, we will try to attack, most often a zoom action without looking for keys to give options, just finish or pull it back out. But afterward we just pound the ball around for a while doing nothing with guys standing around. Most teams run some form of zoom and when it is snuffed they pull it directly back out and run it to the other side, constant attack, we don't do that normally.
Twenty-win seasons don't mean what they used to mean when we old farts were watching Dean's teams.
Today good teams play 35+ games per season.
Dean's first 4 teams only played 19 games per year, on average. Even 15 years in, we were playing barely 30 games per season. Winning 20 out of 28 is worth noticing. Winning 20 out of 33, not so much.
I have standards set higher than being a bubble team. That's why I don't think there's much difference between being the 35th best and 40th best. It's probably fair to say the expectations of the team has changed throughout the season so maybe knowing everything that you know up until this point, making the NCAA Tournament would be a nice accomplishment knowing where this team is right now. But in totality, I think the standards are much higher. Thus, I don't see a difference in being on the right side vs the wrong side of the bubble.
At minimum, the line should be that this team is safely in the NCAA Tournament every year. The years Roy's teams didn't make the NCAA Tournament were pretty catastrophic and I think that standard should be upheld. From there, everyone will have a different opinion on how dangerous UNC should be in the NCAA Tournament. Some will demand competing for championships (whether NCAA or conference) every season. I don't think I'm necessarily that drastic. But at the least, UNC should be a safe NCAA Tournament team every year. That means being seeded somewhere in the top 6 seeds every season.
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