Hate to even start this thread

[Grayhead]

http://www.wect.com/story/35974553/ua-push

I was surprised at the estimated amou t of transgender in service. Also the amount stated in the pentegon.

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

 

[gunslingerdick]

I don't think I have an opinion on this. I do view transgenderism as a disorder. But there are plenty of people in the military with disorders, right?

But I still hate that Trump uses Twitter like he does.

 

[tarheel0910]

I don't think that the government should have to pay for the transition, but I don't really see a problem with them serving. Not sure why that would be an issue. I would like to hear what @heelbent has to say about this given his background.

 

[heelbent]

If someone is fighting for me I don't care if they're in battle-rattle or wearing a hoop skirt as long as they can do their job. I never gave a rats arse what someone did behind closed doors as long as he/she was ready and able when needed and didn't jeopardize anyone else.

I don't think that the government should have to pay for the transition.

Exactly. If you want to cut off your johnson have at it...but don't expect the rest of us to pay for it.

 

[carolinablue34]

I would imagine a good portion of those who are transgender serving in the military are female to male, not just male to female.

 

[heelbent]

On July 26, 1948 (69 years ago today), President Harry S. Truman signed Executive Order 9981, ordering the desegregation of the armed forces. Coincidence?

 

[tarheel0910]

On July 26, 1948 (69 years ago today), President Harry S. Truman signed Executive Order 9981, ordering the desegregation of the armed forces. Coincidence?

I don't think Trump thinks things through that much. I'm going with coincidence. I do like the 69 connection though.

 

[Raising Heel]

Is gender reassignment typically a covered benefit under employer-sponsored health insurance plans? If it is, then I don't have a problem with it. If it's not, then my tax dollars shouldn't be paying for it. Pretty simple.

Left-leaning media are already putting out stories about how the military spends 10 times more each year on erectile dysfunction drugs than transgender surgeries. It all feels like a red herring. Senate got the healthcare votes it needed yesterday, throw a little red meat to the alt-right base today, and ride the wave of momentum for a big announcement. Sessions getting fired, maybe?

 

[heelmanwilm]

I wasnt in the military so i dont have a clue. I have one bro in law whos a marine, another in the navy. One opposes letting them serve, the other supports it. I do feel tax money paying to change someone's gender is a bit sketchy though. If thats whats happening.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I think if they're capable of doing whatever jobs they're in, they should be allowed to serve. I think telling trans people they can't serve is unnecessarily divisive.

I do believe they should have to pay for their own transition surgery and related medication and everything though; not have that paid for by tax dollars. But that's nothing against trans people, I don't think tax dollars should go to pay for a nose job, hair restoration, a boob job, or any other cosmetic surgery either (unless that cosmetic surgery is necessary due to getting maimed in the line of duty or something of that nature).

 

[strummingram]

Women can serve... men can serve. Sooo, it's sorta covered already.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Women can serve... men can serve. Sooo, it's sorta covered already.

Right. That's a good point. So why the grandstanding by the trans folks? We don't need to know if you're trans. Pick whatever gender you want, dress and act in accordance, and don't mention a word over being trans. Would that be so hard?

See, that's my beef. It's not good enough for trans people to just be who they are. All that shit they talk (and gays at the end of the Dont Ask, Don't Tell days) about just wanting to be who they are and blah, blah, blah...it's all bullshit. They want to be who they are AND make sure I know about and I accept it.

 

[heelbent]

They want to be who they are AND make sure I know about and I accept it.

No they don't, they want to be someone else. We've heard all our lives that we should accept people for who they are. Heck, they can't accept themselves.

If you want to but on a bra and panties I don't care. What you do is your business. But when you get in my wallet because you aren't comfortable in your own skin then I have a problem.

 

[prlyles]

 

[UNC71-00]

I don't think I have an opinion on this. I do view transgenderism as a disorder. But there are plenty of people in the military with disorders, right?

But I still hate that Trump uses Twitter like he does.

What do you know about Twitter?

 

[strummingram]

Right. That's a good point. So why the grandstanding by the trans folks? We don't need to know if you're trans. Pick whatever gender you want, dress and act in accordance, and don't mention a word over being trans. Would that be so hard?

See, that's my beef. It's not good enough for trans people to just be who they are. All that shit they talk (and gays at the end of the Dont Ask, Don't Tell days) about just wanting to be who they are and blah, blah, blah...it's all bullshit. They want to be who they are AND make sure I know about and I accept it.

Well, I think it's because they're being discriminated against for just being who they are. As long as no one discriminates against them, everything should be okay. The grandstanding comes from resisting the discrimination. I would encourage anyone to grandstand when you feel wrongfully discriminated against.

 

[strummingram]

Heck, they can't accept themselves.

Actually, they can accept themselves. Why did Donald Trump suddenly decide he couldn't accept them?

Do you have a problem with men who get testosterone supplements paid for, for Low T? Women who get hormones post-menopause?

I don't think we should foot the bill for any kind of body augmentation. But, I'm also sure that our pockets get picked by military spending more than anything. The USA spends more on military than the other 8 next-highest combined. How people get duped into believing that the US Military is underfunded, or being gutted, or whatever, is beyond me.

 

[heelbent]

Actually, they can accept themselves. Why did Donald Trump suddenly decide he couldn't accept them?

Do you have a problem with men who get testosterone supplements paid for, for Low T? Women who get hormones post-menopause?

.

I expected more from that huge, gigantic brain, Strum.

If they can accept themselves why do they want to change their bodies? I have read reports from shrinks that say the desire to be transgendered is a mental issue. You play hellacious guitar but I give their opinon on the issue more weight than yours. I'd probably take your riffs over theirs, so there's that.

I have no idea why our President does the things he does. I had no idea why the moron before him did the things he did. I have no idea why you do the things you do. I don't have your ability to read minds and intuit intentions, but I'm still a young padawan. Maybe the President made that call because...it's his call, and he can. He has a pen and he has a phone.

What's the average age of a Marine/Soldier/Sailor? I know, but I'll let you do the research, and since you made the comparison you should. Do people that age generally need testosterone supplements or hormone injections? I'm not all-knowing like you, but I really don't think so.

What's the average age of a he/she looking to morph into their perfect picture of themselves? Does that age fit the profile of an average service member? Will their cost for medical care be more than the average service member? My feeble reckoning abilities say yes.

If we're going to enlarge breasts and create vaginas for the trannies what happens when Corporal Jughead wants his penis enlarged to meet his picture of HIS perfect self? Do we discriminate because he's not a trans?

 

[toophly1124]

 

[gunslingerdick]

lol. That's what I was thinking.

 

[Raising Heel]

What's the average age of a he/she looking to morph into their perfect picture of themselves? Does that age fit the profile of an average service member? Will their cost for medical care be more than the average service member? My feeble reckoning abilities say yes.

To be clear, the issue isn't simply that their care will cost more. The same could be said of someone who develops a chronic health condition during their service. The distinction is that gender reassignment is an elective surgery performed for non-medical reasons. The surgery isn't necessary to maintain physical health (as @Hark_The_Sound_2010 has mentioned). And anyone who argues that it's necessary for mental health only strengthens opponents' argument about transgenders' mental fitness to serve.

 

[gunslingerdick]

To be clear, the issue isn't simply that their care will cost more. The same could be said of someone who develops a chronic health condition during their service. The distinction is that gender reassignment is an elective surgery performed for non-medical reasons. The surgery isn't necessary to maintain physical health (as @Hark_The_Sound_2010 has mentioned). And anyone who argues that it's necessary for mental health only strengthens opponents' argument about transgenders' mental fitness to serve.

Accurate.

 

[strummingram]

I expected more from that huge, gigantic brain, Strum.

If they can accept themselves why do they want to change their bodies? I have read reports from shrinks that say the desire to be transgendered is a mental issue.

Left-handedness used to be considered a mental illness.

Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness.

It's a process. And, society figures it out. Things change and become better understood, accepted, or regarded more accurately.

We're all females in the womb up until a certain point. A woman's clitoris is what becomes a penis if the chromosomes occur. Men have breasts/nipples. Of course, we all have identical organs, and countless physical parts. The two "sexes" are much more similar than they are different.

I have no idea why our President does the things he does. I had no idea why the moron before him did the things he did. I have no idea why you do the things you do. I don't have your ability to read minds and intuit intentions, but I'm still a young padawan. Maybe the President made that call because...it's his call, and he can. He has a pen and he has a phone.

The reason I mentioned that is because, before his tweet, I hadn't heard much about it. To me, that seemed to be a direct discrimination and it has garnered a backlash.

What's the average age of a Marine/Soldier/Sailor? I know, but I'll let you do the research, and since you made the comparison you should. Do people that age generally need testosterone supplements or hormone injections? I'm not all-knowing like you, but I really don't think so.

I'm not sure what average ages have to do with it. If an active military member reaches his 40's or 50's and experiences Low T and the doctor prescribes a hormone supplement, then that's a similar situation. So, I don't see the problem with trans member in the service having hormone supplements. I already said I wasn't condoning they receive the radical cosmetic surgeries. So, penis and breast enlargements aren't what I was referring to anyway.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Men have breasts/nipples.

 

[heelbent]

Left-handedness used to be considered a mental illness.

Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness.

It's a process. And, society figures it out. Things change and become better understood, accepted, or regarded more accurately.

We're all females in the womb up until a certain point. A woman's clitoris is what becomes a penis if the chromosomes occur. Men have breasts/nipples. Of course, we all have identical organs, and countless physical parts. The two "sexes" are much more similar than they are different.



The reason I mentioned that is because, before his tweet, I hadn't heard much about it. To me, that seemed to be a direct discrimination and it has garnered a backlash.



I'm not sure what average ages have to do with it. If an active military member reaches his 40's or 50's and experiences Low T and the doctor prescribes a hormone supplement, then that's a similar situation. So, I don't see the problem with trans member in the service having hormone supplements. I already said I wasn't condoning they receive the radical cosmetic surgeries. So, penis and breast enlargements aren't what I was referring to anyway.

Never heard of a left-hander or gay person wanting to mutilate his/her body to become their idea of their perfect self.

Age is definitely a factor here whether you see the connection or not. The average age of a US military member is roughly 28. Not exactly the age when testosterone is a problem or hormones are necessary. However, for transgendered people that isn't the case. It's a lifelong process.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Left-handedness used to be considered a mental illness.

Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness.

Multiple Personality Disorder used to be considered a mental illness. It still is. Would you advocate for society to allow people to identify as multiple people? Would you support them in the military? Why or why not?

It's a process. And, society figures it out. Things change and become better understood, accepted, or regarded more accurately.

"Better understood"? "Regarded more accurately"? Who's to say that you're regarding it accurately and @heelbent is regarding it inaccurately? I can find doctors that view it as a mental disorder. Your statement is subjective. Now, with that said, I guess it's only important what the subjective feelings are from those making the decision. Trump thinks it's a disorder and folks with that disorder shouldn't serve. I'm not saying I agree. I'm just pointing out that you're making declarations of subjectivity.

 

[strummingram]

Never heard of a left-hander or gay person wanting to mutilate his/her body to become their idea of their perfect self.

You call it mutilate, they may see it as augmentation.

Is a woman who gets breast implants "mutilating her body?" Are pierced ears mutilation? Some would say yes, some no.

And, the mutilation isn't what you mentioned. You said they were mentally ill and I explained how society's definition of "mentally ill" is always changing.

Embrace the change or resist it, up to you. But, the change is coming no matter what you do.

 

[Raising Heel]

I'm just pointing out that you're making declarations of subjectivity.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Serious question here, does transgenderism exist in other parts of the animal kingdom? Are there other species (outside of humans) where a male would take on the typical behaviors of the female or vice versa?

 

[gunslingerdick]

Embrace the change or resist it, up to you. But, the change is coming no matter what you do.

What if the next big change is something as outrageous as I poasted above - people with multiple personality disorder now want to identify as multiple people - with multiple social security numbers, multiple entitlement opportunities, and multiple everything else? Should we all just accept that's a-comin' too?

 

[strummingram]

Multiple Personality Disorder used to be considered a mental illness. It still is. Would you advocate for society to allow people to identify as multiple people? Would you support them in the military? Why or why not?

Hey... I'm all for the military figuring out ways to keep people OUT of the military! So, I'm ironically-torn. But, I'm not a fan of discrimination if people are otherwise competent.

I've come across a few people who have developed mental disorders from being IN the military! Shell shock, PTSD, etc..

I guess, if enough people with those disorders, showed they could serve and perform their duties, were then suddenly kicked-out and they felt discriminated, I could support their dissent.

"Better understood"? "Regarded more accurately"? Who's to say that you're regarding it accurately and @heelbent is regarding it inaccurately? I can find doctors that view it as a mental disorder. Your statement is subjective. Now, with that said, I guess it's only important what the subjective feelings are from those making the decision. Trump thinks it's a disorder and folks with that disorder shouldn't serve. I'm not saying I agree. I'm just pointing out that you're making declarations of subjectivity.

That's a good point. I should clarify and say that my definition/understanding is merely "different." Not better or more accurate.

When society, as a whole, agrees, then, I suppose it collectively becomes the "better/more accurate" understanding. I was using it in the past tense, as though we'd already reached that consensus.

 

[strummingram]

What if the next big change is something as outrageous as I poasted above - people with multiple personality disorder now want to identify as multiple people - with multiple social security numbers, multiple entitlement opportunities, and multiple everything else? Should we all just accept that's a-comin' too?

Should you? I dunno. Should you? That's up to you.

I'm really glad you chose the word "Should" here. You won't be, but I sure am!

Two Major Problems with Using the Word “Should”
When we use the word “should,” we’re not accepting reality. We’re talking about things that we wish were so, but aren’t (or vice versa). Whenever I used the word “should” when talking to myself, it was motivated by a lack of self-acceptance rather than encouragement.

As Dr. Shad Helmstetter explains in his book What to Say When You Talk to Yourself, when we tell ourselves that we “should” be doing something, we’re implicitly reinforcing the idea that we’re not doing it.

If we say to ourselves “I should really meditate more often,” the unspoken follow-up to that sentence is “…but I don’t.

Equally, if we say, “I should really be exercising this morning,” the unspoken ending to that sentence is “…but I’m not.”

In the long-term, when we tell ourselves or other people that we should or they should be doing something (as well-meaning as we might be), we’re reinforcing the negative, and the fact that we or they are notdoing it.

 

[tarheel0910]

Serious question here, does transgenderism exist in other parts of the animal kingdom? Are there other species (outside of humans) where a male would take on the typical behaviors of the female or vice versa?

https://daily.jstor.org/transgender-proclivities-in-animals/

 

[strummingram]

Serious question here, does transgenderism exist in other parts of the animal kingdom? Are there other species (outside of humans) where a male would take on the typical behaviors of the female or vice versa?

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possibl...feelings-something-that-occurs-only-in-humans

Oddly, humans are not the only animals that engage in cross-dressing or have transgender identity issues; a lot of animals also have "gender-bender" sex lives.

Garter snakes, for example, not only engage in orgiastic bouts of group sex, but male cross-dressing garter snakes also show up for the festivities, oozing a female sex pheromonedesigned to confuse the other male snakes and give the cross-dressing snake (or so the theorists say) an opportunity to get in and inseminate the female before it is picked off by a predator.

The hyena is another cross-dresser, with male and female hyenas appearing to present both sets of sexual organs. In fact, hyenas are not true hermaphrodites, simply such good pseudo-hermaphrodites that the ancient Greeks were convinced they could change from male to female at will.

Then, of course there are fish, which really canchange from male to female (and back again) at will. It turns out that if you toss a school of female salmon or hammerhead sharks in a tank, some will morph into working males.

Scientists call these sex-change artistssuccessive hermaphrodites, and the phenomenon is far from uncommon. In fact, a huge number of fish (more than 100 species) will readily change genders, and some speseahorse fish routinely changegenders several times over the course of their lives.

Along with piscine sex-change artists, you also have fish that are simultaneous hermaphrodites. These are fish which come equipped with both testes and ovaries, and which normally produce eggs for about half their spawns, and sperm the other half.

There are other types of gender benders as well:homosexual seagulls, dogs, sheep and beaver, for example, and the occasional female bird which (due to disease, age or congenital defect) starts producing testosterone and develops both male plumage and a male sex drive.

At least one species of African frog is a sex-change artist, and in quite a few species of animals, the male takes over the duties normally "assigned" to females, such as is the case with the seahorse

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot...

 

[gunslingerdick]

https://daily.jstor.org/transgender-proclivities-in-animals/

Just give me the Cliff's notes version.

 

[tarheel0910]

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possibl...feelings-something-that-occurs-only-in-humans

Oddly, humans are not the only animals that engage in cross-dressing or have transgender identity issues; a lot of animals also have "gender-bender" sex lives.

Garter snakes, for example, not only engage in orgiastic bouts of group sex, but male cross-dressing garter snakes also show up for the festivities, oozing a female sex pheromonedesigned to confuse the other male snakes and give the cross-dressing snake (or so the theorists say) an opportunity to get in and inseminate the female before it is picked off by a predator.

The hyena is another cross-dresser, with male and female hyenas appearing to present both sets of sexual organs. In fact, hyenas are not true hermaphrodites, simply such good pseudo-hermaphrodites that the ancient Greeks were convinced they could change from male to female at will.

Then, of course there are fish, which really canchange from male to female (and back again) at will. It turns out that if you toss a school of female salmon or hammerhead sharks in a tank, some will morph into working males.

Scientists call these sex-change artistssuccessive hermaphrodites, and the phenomenon is far from uncommon. In fact, a huge number of fish (more than 100 species) will readily change genders, and some speseahorse fish routinely changegenders several times over the course of their lives.

Along with piscine sex-change artists, you also have fish that are simultaneous hermaphrodites. These are fish which come equipped with both testes and ovaries, and which normally produce eggs for about half their spawns, and sperm the other half.

There are other types of gender benders as well:homosexual seagulls, dogs, sheep and beaver, for example, and the occasional female bird which (due to disease, age or congenital defect) starts producing testosterone and develops both male plumage and a male sex drive.

At least one species of African frog is a sex-change artist, and in quite a few species of animals, the male takes over the duties normally "assigned" to females, such as is the case with the seahorse

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot...

 

[tarheel0910]

Just give me the Cliff's notes version.

Yes.

 

[strummingram]

Egg-zackly...

 

[gunslingerdick]

Just give me the Cliff's notes version.

Strum beat you to it.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possibl...feelings-something-that-occurs-only-in-humans

Oddly, humans are not the only animals that engage in cross-dressing or have transgender identity issues; a lot of animals also have "gender-bender" sex lives.

Garter snakes, for example, not only engage in orgiastic bouts of group sex, but male cross-dressing garter snakes also show up for the festivities, oozing a female sex pheromonedesigned to confuse the other male snakes and give the cross-dressing snake (or so the theorists say) an opportunity to get in and inseminate the female before it is picked off by a predator.

The hyena is another cross-dresser, with male and female hyenas appearing to present both sets of sexual organs. In fact, hyenas are not true hermaphrodites, simply such good pseudo-hermaphrodites that the ancient Greeks were convinced they could change from male to female at will.

Then, of course there are fish, which really canchange from male to female (and back again) at will. It turns out that if you toss a school of female salmon or hammerhead sharks in a tank, some will morph into working males.

Scientists call these sex-change artistssuccessive hermaphrodites, and the phenomenon is far from uncommon. In fact, a huge number of fish (more than 100 species) will readily change genders, and some speseahorse fish routinely changegenders several times over the course of their lives.

Along with piscine sex-change artists, you also have fish that are simultaneous hermaphrodites. These are fish which come equipped with both testes and ovaries, and which normally produce eggs for about half their spawns, and sperm the other half.

There are other types of gender benders as well:homosexual seagulls, dogs, sheep and beaver, for example, and the occasional female bird which (due to disease, age or congenital defect) starts producing testosterone and develops both male plumage and a male sex drive.

At least one species of African frog is a sex-change artist, and in quite a few species of animals, the male takes over the duties normally "assigned" to females, such as is the case with the seahorse

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot...

Interesting. Seriously, thanks for that. My next question is how is it working out for those trans fish? Are they bullied? What is the social impact of other trans species? You probably can't answer that and I'd have to do more research to find out. But I think that pertinent information.