How many post touches would Bagley and Carter get in the UNC system?

[Ozheelfan]

I’ve said many times on here, Roy’s primary job is to win basketball games... college basketball games. He’s proven he can do it with top 10 talents, top 50 talents and this year he’s proving able to win games with underrated and overlooked talent.

I would think Roy believes he’s building the brand by winning, and winning in a way that sits well with the traditions of the program and the expectations of the university and fan base.

I’m just guessing of course, but with all of that to do I doubt Roy’s really concerned with building the brand by winning ‘recruiting titles’ or ‘draft titles’

 

[gary-7]

Okay, enlighten me since you seem absolutely sure if it. How do you know those guys had no intention of leaving after a year? Genuinely curious.

I want talent regardless of how long the player stays. I love the Luke Mayes of the world, but on some level the fact that our top rated players stayed longer than anyone else was a factor as to why it’s taken us this long since Harrison Barnes to sign a top 5 player nationally.

Fact of the matter is, Roy is recruiting a lot of the same kids UK and dook are getting. Would anyone really be complaining that much if more of those kids came our way? I doubt it. We are North Carolina, one of the top programs in history, why shouldn’t we go after the best?

I am sure of it, and if you paid attention you would be too. It was no great secret. Not a single one of the aforementioned players ever said a word to anyone --- media or otherwise --- about being an OAD, and in fact when asked about it Psycho and Barnes disavowed even thinking about it. Hell, the media tried their best to portray Harrison as a sure OAD and he was having none of it. He said from the get-go he would cross that bridge when he came to it --- and he did and decided of his own volition to stay.

These days the "word" gets out pretty quick about which HS prospects come in with OAD on the brain, and that applies to literally none of those guys --- and in the cases of Ty and Wayne that attitude would've been plain foolish. And yet you complain that these kids "stayed longer"??? Huh???

Thus, the bigger question is why do you persist in these disingenuous arguments against some imaginary straw-man? The only people "complaining" on here are folks like you who get bent out of shape with every recruiting class we have that doesn't include an OAD --- and don't deny that, because you do --- or our guys staying too long. Good grief.

Sure, Roy recruits some (nowhere near all, because truth is most elite prospects are tainted) of the same kids uk and dook and ku go after, and we may get one from time to time --- hell, who knows, Zion might bow up and come here --- but that will never make or break Roy's program (as he has proven in spades). You are and have been totally hung up on "rankings". Maybe just give it a rest.

 

[Sk1310]

Okay, enlighten me since you seem absolutely sure if it. How do you know those guys had no intention of leaving after a year? Genuinely curious.

I want talent regardless of how long the player stays. I love the Luke Mayes of the world, but on some level the fact that our top rated players stayed longer than anyone else was a factor as to why it’s taken us this long since Harrison Barnes to sign a top 5 player nationally.

Fact of the matter is, Roy is recruiting a lot of the same kids UK and dook are getting. Would anyone really be complaining that much if more of those kids came our way? I doubt it. We are North Carolina, one of the top programs in history, why shouldn’t we go after the best?

Since we signed Little, I love how your complaints have turned from not getting top 10 players, to not getting top 5. If and when we land the 5th best player, will your complaint switch to top two?

 

[gunslingerdick]

You really think Lawson, Ellington or Ed Davis weren’t good enough to go? And if you don’t think Harrison was ready then you’re the one out of your mind.

Look, I’m really not one of those guys that wants all OADs. I want them mixed with our long term guys. It’s a formula that has worked for Roy. I believe that our coach is correct in recruiting the top guys because it will not only get us wins, but really bump up our brand.

So to conclude, I want guys like Bagley, Zion, etc. and I also want guys like Marcus, Brice and Joel. The two aren’t mutually exclusive

But they kind of are. For example, let’s say we had signed Parker or Wiggins for 2013-2014. It’s unlikely then that Marcus is called upon to carry the load his sophomore year. And not only would we have been cheated out of Marcus’s great year (his incredible performances and game winners against moo and UL) it’s also questionable if Marcus ever develops into the player and leader that takes us to the pinnacle with one of the most amazing shots and gutsiest performances in the history of our program. But that’s ok....because we signed Ben Simmons that year. Despite his questionable attitude, effort and body language, we’re sure to win the title with that stacked team, right? Well, he checked out, became ineligible down the stretch and not only does his presence disrupt chemistry, but that 30 and 20 game against FSU never happened for Brice. In fact, Brice didn’t get anywhere near enough touches to approach AA status. Too bad because that kid has worked hard over his 4 years to become a better player. Would have been nice for him to get a chance to shine. But Simmons made first team AA. Cool. Wait...actually he’s not eligible for AA status because of him not finishing the season. Damn, if things had worked out differently, that team could have been something. Maybe even made the championship game and then who knows? You know what I’m saying? Oh well, that’s alright, we have this guy from Finland coming next year. He’s a big man that can shoot it from 3. And with Meeks’s conditioning issues, we’re gonna need this guy if we want to make a title run.

Not saying all that happens but I’m pretty content with the way things have gone and the memories guys like Marcus, Brice and Kennedy have provided me.

 

[Archer2]

Since Roy’s return, we’ve won 3 titles, more than any other school during that period except UConn, who also has 3. I’d be willing to bet that UConn hasn’t had the top ranked recruiting class one time during that period and I don’t think we have either. And I could be wrong, but I don’t remember a single OAD for either team during that period. BTW, dook and UK, those recruiting juggernauts, have a combined 3 titles during that period.

I don’t know if you guys are young and it hurts your ego when d00k and UK constantly win the mythical “recruiting title” or what. But I don’t see how you could ask for much more success than we’ve had, all while graduating 90% of our players. I think it must be a generational thing. Otherwise, I just don’t get this infatuation with OAD’s.

If we get a OAD, fine. I will certainly root for him. But I will also expect him to be a team player and earn his minutes, not expect them to automatically be given to him. I will also expect him to share the ball and not be auditioning for pro scouts every night. I will also expect him to go to class and keep his nose clean. I think Roy probably has similar expectations.

Unfortunately, many OAD’s don’t want to adhere to those criteria. It’s why we don’t land many of them. And I’m fine with that.

 

[Ozheelfan]

Slinger and arch pretty much say it all in the above two posts.

 

[tarheel0910]

And I could be wrong, but I don’t remember a single OAD for either team during that period.

Seriously?

 

[Archer2]

Forgot about Tony. It’s hell getting old.

 

[tarheel0910]

Forgot about Tony. It’s hell getting old.

No love for Marvin?

 

[trestyles]

Well... that's a little simplified (no pun intended). I think Nas has a world of NBA potential, but is he someone who should be OAD?... lessee how he continues his development over the next 8-10 months. It'll be pretty apparent one way or another.

Tony should have never been OAD. and he and his dad knew that and came in on a wiser 3/2 yr plan... until someone got in their ear. On the other hand, guys like Bagley have nothing to gain by staying around.

Honestly, from my personal view, I don't like the OAD system because it's bad for the quality of the game of college basketball. I could live with a 2AD or a baseball rule of go outta HS or stay so many years in college. But let's say the rule doesn't change. I will rarely if ever fret over UNC not signing a OAD kid. The occasional well-timed OAD can help us --- I would've loved an elite 5-man for this team --- but I never, ever want to rely on them. Roy doesn't and shouldn't dumb-down his system.

I'm one of the few where the OAD system doesn't bother me. However, if its the rules changes I dont want to see it go the baseball route.

One reason a star freshman like Carmelo shouldn't have to stay another year because he decided he wasn't ready after high school. Second reason, lets say a player blows up his freshman year. That second year can be a lot more damaging chemistry wise then a OAD to a team. Then fans will be complaining about 2AD players LOL.

 

[DSouthr]

1&D players can be very disruptive to a program, they can as well be big time assets for sure but loading up on to many of them is fools gold. It is as if getting to many 1&D recruits makes a program addicted to them, they have to not only have them but keep getting them or risk just not being very good for a long while.

For so many years coaches cared big time about class position balance, not over recruiting a single position but those program addicted to 1&Ds have no choice, they have to over recruit positions because those players will not be there for more than a year or they are not the player the hype indicated them to be, They have to dumb down their schemes on both ends because starting 3 or 4 freshmen they just are not going to be able to learn and coordinate all a coach typically would want to do. It is cute when Kal calls his offense the dribble drive but that was nothing more than a cute name for street ball free lance, get the ball dive it or kick it. You can put shiate in a bag all day and try to call it fertilizer, really it is still shaite in a bag.

I have nothing against 1&D players, if they are ready in their game to go then by all means do so and I do think 1 or 2 a year does help a program but get more than that and it can cause terminal over hype promises that get consistently under delivered upon. We may not be winning the recruiting awards but we are the defending national champs and in my world, that is all that counts!

 

[DSouthr]

I'm one of the few where the OAD system doesn't bother me. However, if its the rules changes I dont want to see it go the baseball route.

One reason a star freshman like Carmelo shouldn't have to stay another year because he decided he wasn't ready after high school. Second reason, lets say a player blows up his freshman year. That second year can be a lot more damaging chemistry wise then a OAD to a team. Then fans will be complaining about 2AD players LOL.

TOTALLY agree, I hate the 1&D rule, kids should be able to enter the draft anything they feel they are ready!

 

[gary-7]

I'm one of the few where the OAD system doesn't bother me. However, if its the rules changes I dont want to see it go the baseball route.

One reason a star freshman like Carmelo shouldn't have to stay another year because he decided he wasn't ready after high school. Second reason, lets say a player blows up his freshman year. That second year can be a lot more damaging chemistry wise then a OAD to a team. Then fans will be complaining about 2AD players LOL.

I hafta disagree with that, in that the old saying that "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores" still has a lot of truth in it. Plus, if they had to stay it would cut back on a few programs snagging so many of the elite prospects. Cal wouldn't be able to flush his toilet for a new batch every season, and prospects would look elsewhere to avoid overcrowded rosters/

 

[DSouthr]

I hafta disagree with that, in that the old saying that "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores" still has a lot of truth in it. Plus, if they had to stay it would cut back on a few programs snagging so many of the elite prospects. Cal wouldn't be able to flush his toilet for a new batch every season, and prospects would look elsewhere to avoid overcrowded rosters/

Doing away with the 1&D would bring balance back, those 10 kids that would be 1&D is not the same as the second tier of kids, the 1&D are able to out talent much of the time. That second tier kid is where you see the coaching difference, that is the kid Roy has been getting that outside of the 1&D kid that has NBA level talent but that talent has to be developed. Coaches like Roy, Izzo, Mark Few, they develop the kid that isn't NBA ready day 1. K used to be very good at this as well but over the last few years the 1&D kids have spoiled him as a coach to the extent that he seems now to rely much more on being able to out talent than to develop talent. And because his teams have not been able to live up to the pre-season hype he has resorted to making excuses for under achieving, kinda sad to see in a way. His teams will be hard to beat simply because those 1&D kids will get more acclimated to playing against older more experienced upper classmen but they will never really be what they would seem to be, fools gold...

 

[trestyles]

I hafta disagree with that, in that the old saying that "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores" still has a lot of truth in it. Plus, if they had to stay it would cut back on a few programs snagging so many of the elite prospects. Cal wouldn't be able to flush his toilet for a new batch every season, and prospects would look elsewhere to avoid overcrowded rosters/

And what about the unfairness to a kid like Carmelo or Anthony Davis. It wouldn’t be fair for them to come a 2nd year.

 

[trestyles]

Doing away with the 1&D would bring balance back, those 10 kids that would be 1&D is not the same as the second tier of kids, the 1&D are able to out talent much of the time. That second tier kid is where you see the coaching difference, that is the kid Roy has been getting that outside of the 1&D kid that has NBA level talent but that talent has to be developed. Coaches like Roy, Izzo, Mark Few, they develop the kid that isn't NBA ready day 1. K used to be very good at this as well but over the last few years the 1&D kids have spoiled him as a coach to the extent that he seems now to rely much more on being able to out talent than to develop talent. And because his teams have not been able to live up to the pre-season hype he has resorted to making excuses for under achieving, kinda sad to see in a way. His teams will be hard to beat simply because those 1&D kids will get more acclimated to playing against older more experienced upper classmen but they will never really be what they would seem to be, fools gold...

Do you care about the unfairness to a kid star(example Melo or Anthony Davis), or just the benefit college coaches get?

 

[Archer2]

Do you care about the unfairness to a kid star(example Melo or Anthony Davis), or just the benefit college coaches get?

 

[HeelzLover]

And what about the unfairness to a kid like Carmelo or Anthony Davis. It wouldn’t be fair for them to come a 2nd year.

How often is there a Anthony Davis or Carmelo coming from high school. Name 1 that has been to college since those 2 and then went pro after 1 yr and became a star.

 

[trestyles]

How often is there a Anthony Davis or Carmelo coming from high school. Name 1 that has been to college since those 2 and then went pro after 1 yr and became a star.

Karl Anthony Thomas....Joel Embild .....Kryie.........that’s an easy answer and I can continue with more.

 

[HeelzLover]

Not after 1 year. Maybe 2 yrs.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Since Roy’s return, we’ve won 3 titles, more than any other school during that period except UConn, who also has 3.
I don’t know if you guys are young and it hurts your ego when d00k and UK constantly win the mythical “recruiting title” or what. But I don’t see how you could ask for much more success than we’ve had, all while graduating 90% of our players.

These OAD fans and the OAD players themselves are cut from the same "tissue paper".

 

[trestyles]

HUH???

 

[DSouthr]

Do you care about the unfairness to a kid star(example Melo or Anthony Davis), or just the benefit college coaches get?

Great question, I wish more folks would consider that question! I don't believe it is right for the kid's sake, look, some of the biggest stars of our game never played a single college game. Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Garnett just to name a few. Yes there were busters as well, those busters got paid really well, why should I or anyone else care really that the NBA team made a mistake by drafting them to early, they should have done a better job of evaluation before making that decision to draft a Kwami Brown ect.

Now where I don't have much pity for a kid is when he makes a bad decision to enter a draft and is either not drafted or drafted but his game is not really ready for that level. I live out here in the real world and the rules we have to live by are make bad decisions and ya have to live with them. If as kid elects to enter the NBA directly out of high school he is electing to enter the adult world where ya go to work and face adult decisions every day. These kids are fully aware of the consequences of by passing college for the pro game, if they weighted all the facts and decided to bypass college and give up that eligibility then OK, you made a decision for better or worse, live with it no matter if later on you wished for a redo, no redos for the real world, time for these kids to learn that important life lesson.

 

[DSouthr]

Well they’ll certainly be around longer. You can bet your ass Carter and Bagley are bolting to the league after a year which I admit is a paradox with OAD kids: not enough time to develop them into a coherent unit on the floor. Which is why I’ve always wanted OAD kids mixed with our 3-4 year players here at UNC. The problem is that getting to the NBA is more of a priority nowadays. It’s more important to top 10 kids.

No it is actually not more of a priority now days for a kid to get to the NBA, it has always been a big time priority. You are asking the wrong question, what you should be asking is why is it more important for kids now days to get to the NBA earlier than it was before. There can be only 2 possible answers, either the kids are different now days than they were the past, that some how society has extra spoiled them or that the rules have changed and they are reacting to the rules that are in place now that were not in place a few years ago.

Now sure, answer can be some of both but the more straight up answer is the rules are set in a way that forces these kids to enter the NBA earlier, specifically the rookie salary cap rule drives this more than any other single factor.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Great question, I wish more folks would consider that question! I don't believe it is right for the kid's sake, look, some of the biggest stars of our game never played a single college game. Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Garnett just to name a few. Yes there were busters as well, those busters got paid really well, why should I or anyone else care really that the NBA team made a mistake by drafting them to early, they should have done a better job of evaluation before making that decision to draft a Kwami Brown ect.

Now where I don't have much pity for a kid is when he makes a bad decision to enter a draft and is either not drafted or drafted but his game is not really ready for that level. I live out here in the real world and the rules we have to live by are make bad decisions and ya have to live with them. If as kid elects to enter the NBA directly out of high school he is electing to enter the adult world where ya go to work and face adult decisions every day. These kids are fully aware of the consequences of by passing college for the pro game, if they weighted all the facts and decided to bypass college and give up that eligibility then OK, you made a decision for better or worse, live with it no matter if later on you wished for a redo, no redos for the real world, time for these kids to learn that important life lesson.

I agree with all of that. If you want to enter the draft right out of high school, then you should be able to do that. But if you commit to play for a program, you should have to stay for 3 years. That affords the coach relief in that he knows what his roster is going to look like for a certain amount of time. Otherwise, it's not fair to the coach. We always moan and groan about what's "fair" for these players but we don't think of what's fair for the coaches. They're people too.

And this notion of "fair" is ridiculous to me. So the school profits off the kid? Big deal. They're running a business. A business that's offering far more to the greater good than that player will ever offer.

 

[DSouthr]

I agree with all of that. If you want to enter the draft right out of high school, then you should be able to do that. But if you commit to play for a program, you should have to stay for 3 years. That affords the coach relief in that he knows what his roster is going to look like for a certain amount of time. Otherwise, it's not fair to the coach. We always moan and groan about what's "fair" for these players but we don't think of what's fair for the coaches. They're people too.

And this notion of "fair" is ridiculous to me. So the school profits off the kid? Big deal. They're running a business. A business that's offering far more to the greater good than that player will ever offer.

I agree this notion of fair should for the most part be kicked out, where I do draw the line is a kid should be able to make his own decision of where he wants to work just like anyone else. It does become a question of fair when a kid is not allowed to pursue a profession that he is able to perform and someone is willing to pay him well for his services if they are allowed to.

Fair to the coaches is IMO not a consideration, coaches run a business and have to adjust to the changes in that business, make forward decision as opposed to short sighted decisions that bring more risk. Keep in tune with both he players you now have as well as those you are recruiting and take the needed actions based on staying in tune with those kids. You will know those kids that are 1&D if they have the op just as a coach will know the kid that is going to enter the draft if there is no 1&D rule, understand who you should be recruiting and who you maybe need to back fill a back up plan for. It isn't that hard, only rarely will you see a kid enter the draft that was not expected to, there are not many JR Smith situations out there and even with him it was pretty well known the only reason he was initially going to college is that he didn't believe the NBA was ready to draft him before he blew up in that Micky D game.

 

[trestyles]

Great question, I wish more folks would consider that question! I don't believe it is right for the kid's sake, look, some of the biggest stars of our game never played a single college game. Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Garnett just to name a few. Yes there were busters as well, those busters got paid really well, why should I or anyone else care really that the NBA team made a mistake by drafting them to early, they should have done a better job of evaluation before making that decision to draft a Kwami Brown ect.

Now where I don't have much pity for a kid is when he makes a bad decision to enter a draft and is either not drafted or drafted but his game is not really ready for that level. I live out here in the real world and the rules we have to live by are make bad decisions and ya have to live with them. If as kid elects to enter the NBA directly out of high school he is electing to enter the adult world where ya go to work and face adult decisions every day. These kids are fully aware of the consequences of by passing college for the pro game, if they weighted all the facts and decided to bypass college and give up that eligibility then OK, you made a decision for better or worse, live with it no matter if later on you wished for a redo, no redos for the real world, time for these kids to learn that important life lesson.

My EXACT SAME THOUGHTS

 

[trestyles]

I agree with all of that. If you want to enter the draft right out of high school, then you should be able to do that. But if you commit to play for a program, you should have to stay for 3 years. That affords the coach relief in that he knows what his roster is going to look like for a certain amount of time. Otherwise, it's not fair to the coach. We always moan and groan about what's "fair" for these players but we don't think of what's fair for the coaches. They're people too.

And this notion of "fair" is ridiculous to me. So the school profits off the kid? Big deal. They're running a business. A business that's offering far more to the greater good than that player will ever offer.

Coaches was happy about the OAD rule at first. They used to complain about kids committing and then bolting to the NBA. Not knowing if a kid going to show up on campus.

Three year rule, coaches will say its great at first. Then complain how a player like Carmelo Anthony has to stay for THREE years, and now that college has a super team. Imagine Anthony Davis, and MKG on the same Kentucky team for THREE years. Other coaches will be outraged at most blue blood programs.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Coaches was happy about the OAD rule at first. They used to complain about kids committing and then bolting to the NBA. Not knowing if a kid going to show up on campus.

Three year rule, coaches will say its great at first. Then complain how a player like Carmelo Anthony has to stay for THREE years, and now that college has a super team. Imagine Anthony Davis, and MKG on the same Kentucky team for THREE years. Other coaches will be outraged at most blue blood programs.

Anthony Davis and Melo would simply elect to go pro right out of high school - as they should. They were physically ready and had enough talent and skill to do so. I want that option for those guys.

But if you come to college, be prepared to stay. That's all.

 

[gary-7]

Do you care about the unfairness to a kid star(example Melo or Anthony Davis), or just the benefit college coaches get?

Again, I'm proposing a version of the baseball rule. If you think you can play out of HS, take your chances and/or get your experience in the Minors (D-League) --- if you go to college, then stay a while (I could live with 2 years). How the heck is that unfair to anyone?

 

[trestyles]

Anthony Davis and Melo would simply elect to go pro right out of high school - as they should. They were physically ready and had enough talent and skill to do so. I want that option for those guys.

But if you come to college, be prepared to stay. That's all.

Remember Melo was on record stating he wasn't ready out of high school at the time. That's why he went to college. After that first year, it was no reason to stay. He accomplished everything.

I think a player shouldn't have to sign no 3 year contract to a college. Which is basically all that will become. I think it should go back to how it was before. Not saying I'm or you right or wrong.

 

[trestyles]

Again, I'm proposing a version of the baseball rule. If you think you can play out of HS, take your chances and/or get your experience in the Minors (D-League) --- if you go to college, then stay a while (I could live with 2 years). How the heck is that unfair to anyone?

Which is why I keep using the Example of Melo. Melo didn't think he could play in the NBA after HS. He was on record saying this out his own mouth. If a kid opts for college and have a season like him, why should he be force to stay another year? That is unfair.

 

[pln2013]

The idea of obligating players to play "for free" (yes, I know there's value to the degree) for 3 years makes me really uncomfortable.

 

[gary-7]

Which is why I keep using the Example of Melo. Melo didn't think he could play in the NBA after HS. He was on record saying this out his own mouth. If a kid opts for college and have a season like him, why should he be force to stay another year? That is unfair.

Sorry, but that's the chance you take. It is in no way unfair. That's like saying the speed limit on an interstate shouldn't be 70 because someone's grandmother isn't comfortable driving over 55.

 

[gary-7]

The idea of obligating players to play "for free" (yes, I know there's value to the degree) for 3 years makes me really uncomfortable.

Oh please.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

I love the idea of the Hybrid plan. You go straight out of High School if you choose; If you choose to go to college, you are committed for 2 years. This provides stability for the program and doesn't hold the kid back for too long. I would add: 1.If the coach leaves for any reason or the U gets in trouble (not related to the kid in question), the kid can transfer immediately without penalty and use the remaining eligibility at any U he chooses. 2. If they go straight out of HS, they can opt to pull their name out of the draft prior to getting drafted and go to college if they do not have an agent and they do not like the feedback they are getting. In both scenarios the kid is taking a chance that a scholly will be available.

To me this system is as fair as it can be to all parties.

 

[trestyles]

Sorry, but that's the chance you take. It is in no way unfair. That's like saying the speed limit on an interstate shouldn't be 70 because someone's grandmother isn't comfortable driving over 55.

For Two or Three years?? That is unfair and you know it.

 

[trestyles]

The idea of obligating players to play "for free" (yes, I know there's value to the degree) for 3 years makes me really uncomfortable.

Most fans don't care about the players. Only those who stay for 3 or 4 years. Especially the ones who view a player like Brandon Wright or Marvin as "not really Tar Heels".

 

[TPFKAPFS]

There is no way to support the statement " most fans don't care about the players" when talking about the Tar Heels! The very definition of Tar Heel Family is we support you and care for you for LIFE!

The few who view those who leave early as somehow lesser Tar Heels haven't internalized the Family notion or didn't get the memo when they jumped on the bandwagon! It is certainly appropriate to say you feel closer or appreciate those who stayed longer more, but a Family member should recognize the contribution of even those who left!

Just like how at UNC it doesn't matter who starts; it is how long you play and who finishes; for the Family it is about how you behave after leaving! Do you rep the Heels while in the pros; do you remain close to other Tar Heels; do you return to the Hill for Summers or special occasions; do you still consult Roy or other staff ; do you behave in a way that reps us well. These and many other things determine Tar Heel status!

 

[gunslingerdick]

Remember Melo was on record stating he wasn't ready out of high school at the time. That's why he went to college. After that first year, it was no reason to stay. He accomplished everything.

I think a player shouldn't have to sign no 3 year contract to a college. Which is basically all that will become. I think it should go back to how it was before. Not saying I'm or you right or wrong.

Which is why I keep using the Example of Melo. Melo didn't think he could play in the NBA after HS. He was on record saying this out his own mouth. If a kid opts for college and have a season like him, why should he be force to stay another year? That is unfair.

The idea of obligating players to play "for free" (yes, I know there's value to the degree) for 3 years makes me really uncomfortable.

I get what both of you are saying. It's a dilemma that we're not going to solve on a message board. And I guess what I'm hoping for isn't necessarily for a rule to be put in place. It's more that I'm hoping for kids these days to be different than they are - to be less self-centered and myopic. I wish kids were more willing to buy into a team concept and more likely to feel obligation to a program that gave them the springboard they needed to maximize their talents (let alone a chance at a college education that has a monetary value of roughly $100k and priceless other benefits). I wish kids understood better the value in seeing something through and that commitment isn't always pleasant but it's necessary for development and shows character. And I wish that if kids don't feel the way I've described above, social mores would push them towards faking it.

I can't quite put my finger on when it happened, but over the past 20-25 years, children have gotten too big for their britches. And frankly, I don't like that. I know some might say that it's a good thing - "it's empowering them". But I disagree. Kids need guidance from adults - more specifically, adults that have their best interest at heart. I may not know all that much about basketball, but I've worked with children (special needs, impoverished, etc) for my whole professional career (approximately 20 years). So I do like to think I'm pretty in tune with what's best for developing children. And I can say that the current model isn't it. And it's not just this debate about how many years college athletes should play. It's a much larger discussion - how are we raising our children and preparing them for adulthood. The way kids are today isn't their fault. Kids have always pushed boundaries. It's adults that have allowed it to happen, or worse yet, have endorsed it so they could get a free ride. Sad really.

But if we just narrow this conversation down to playing college athletics, I could support a rule that allowed kids to go straight from high school. But if they choose to attend college, they must stay 2-3 years. Is that unfair? Maybe. Probably. The Carmelos of the world I guess get the shit end of the stick. But if it curbs kids entitlement and sends a larger message to the masses, and restores some semblance of teaching kids certain values they otherwise would choose not to learn, then so be it.