How many post touches would Bagley and Carter get in the UNC system?
- Thread starter bfowler991
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In no size, shape nor form is that unfair. Poor kid has to pursue a college education --- for free, no less --- for 2 or 3 whole years? Oh, the horror! Abuse and exploitation, I tell ya...
Let's get real. The NFL has a 3-yr rule with zero exceptions. MLB has a 3-yr rule once you decide to attend college, with the exception if you go right out of HS. An NBA rule like MLB is perfectly reasonable --- maybe 2 would be better suited for basketball, maybe 3 ---but either way it IS perfectly reasonable.
Think you're good enough to get drafted out of HS, or aren't interested in an education? Go ahead. College ain't for everybody. But if you decide to be a student-athlete, then be a student-athlete, instead of the farce of grudgingly going to class for one semester. Make some actual progress towards a degree. It might actually do these kids some good in life as opposed to the instant gratifiacation culture that so very few are actually good enough to take advantage of.
Kids, parents, and some of their coaches all share the blame. Some of these parents push the kids to the NBA.
In no size, shape nor form is that unfair. Poor kid has to pursue a college education --- for free, no less --- for 2 or 3 whole years? Oh, the horror! Abuse and exploitation, I tell ya...
Let's get real. The NFL has a 3-yr rule with zero exceptions. MLB has a 3-yr rule once you decide to attend college, with the exception if you go right out of HS. An NBA rule like MLB is perfectly reasonable --- maybe 2 would be better suited for basketball, maybe 3 ---but either way it IS perfectly reasonable.
Think you're good enough to get drafted out of HS, or aren't interested in an education? Go ahead. College ain't for everybody. But if you decide to be a student-athlete, then be a student-athlete, instead of the farce of grudgingly going to class for one semester. Make some actual progress towards a degree. It might actually do these kids some good in life as opposed to the instant gratifiacation culture that so very few are actually good enough to take advantage of.
Smh ok Gary.
WoW slinger, that is a lot of interesting stuff to address! By my count there are at least 3 separate discussion topics that are IMO big time. I am going to gloss over the one more societal in nature by simply saying it isn't just kids that have become myopic and self centered but certainly kids are much more so than was true in my generation and that IMO is not a good thing.
Kids not having loyalty to a team, yeah, I think much of that is due to their playing year round and for so many different teams that they lose that bonding to a single team, it has become more like a pick up game used to be in my day. Kid are now allowed to change high schools multiple times for no other reason than dislike of a coach or desire to play on a larger stage. I really do not like the fact that kids are recruited to play for power high school programs, kids are getting scholarships to play for high school programs??? It seems if your kid has the talent parents think nothing about sending them half way across the country to go to a big time private school, thank God my parents wanted me home for family dinner every night.
WE elevate these children to super star level and give them every break and perk imaginable, don't worry about grades, here is some cash, you are amazing have you met my daughter? IN some cases we do that to middle school kids, by the time they "graduate" high school they expect everything to be given to them off the court, to be treated like rock stars that are above the rules. And we fans are so enraptured with our college program of choice that we worship their every move at just the rumor that our beloved program is recruiting them and it gets even worse when the actually commit to your program? The amazing thing is that any of them are able to keep their heads on straight, we love them, we worship them, and then we crucify them when they don't do exactly as we dream they will? And yet we ask whose fault it is, and yet we fain shock when the newspaper blasts a negative headline about something that occurs off the court?
Plain and simple truth is those kids play year round and leave home to play to entertain us because when we are entertained mega bucks begin to flow and successfully entertaining us means mega millions flow your way and you do not have to pick the right numbers in the mega bucks lotto for it to happen. It is a strange world where we make bizillionaires out of kids that play a sport, people that can sing, or people that play act while soldiers fight and die for our freedoms for small change...
Hey. I would suggest looking at the MLB situation. That has been a win-win since the rule was enacted. College baseball has benifitted because not as many talented HS kids are getting sucked out of their ranks, and similarly not as many post-HS kids are languishing in Low-A or B ball. They're getting a college education while working on their games, and when they do get drafted again are having to spend less time in the Minors.
In the old days "college boys" were often considered tainted by MLB insiders. Now the good ones are often going straight to AA or AAA and fast-tracking to the Show.
Dunno why you're SMH.
College is about much more than the degree or grades or even preparing students for their jobs; it was also designed to prepare them for the soft skills, life skills, networking skills, character, perseverance, inter-personal relationships, financial management, and a myriad of other skills one needs to become a productive citizen!
The longer these youngsters are exposed to a collegiate environment (assuming they are really participating) the better for them and us!
The longer these youngsters are exposed to a collegiate environment (assuming they are really participating) the better for them and us!
Well yes but... College is a great option even more now days than back in my youth for sure but plenty of people do enter the work force after high school and grow in to solid citizen adults and many folks graduate from college and don't do as well. Point being there are multiple paths to maturing as a good adult but that is not to minimize the college option.
Personally, I have always looked at college as a path way to future employment, even if you do not engage in the profession your college experience would seem to best fit you for. Education degrees for example do not always end you up as a teacher.
Under the lens of college preparing you for future employment it can be defined as a step that gets you on the path to where you want to end up. How ever, if that step can be successfully bypassed, as Bill Gates did or Lebron James did, I do think many of us if in the position to have such a choice would see this differently. Let's see, I can go make 3 million now or wait 6mo so I can play in college and get this sudden splurge of maturation and then go? Quantifiable is that 6mo (2 semesters) of college really worth 3million? That is kinda the trade off, 3million or 2 semesters and if those 2 semesters are so vital I do think with 3million a year, when i am NBA done I can go to college and be set really well to do so.
Someone mentioned that football has a 3yr rule, OK but the difference is not just that football players do have to physically mature before being pro ready but where is that long history of the greats of that sport being successful going straight from high school to the NFL, the NBA is loaded with just such success stories. MLB takes the best of the best high school players every year and gives them million dollar sign bonuses and places them in a well defined many years successful minor league, the NBA has its DL that is nothing near what MLB has had for what, well over 100yrs?
Many folks want a version of the baseball rule for college basketball, I am very much against that and have shared my reasons many times here. But consider this, if it is opened up for kids to go straight from high school to the NBA, how many do you think would enter the draft directly (if there is no baseball rule, just the clock rolled back to pre-1&D days)? The last year they could, I think it was 12 guys that declared for the draft but a more current look would be look at the 5 star kids that actually were 1&D, with only a few exception that would be the list of kids that enter the NBA direct from high school. Without looking at the last couple drafts and counting up the 1&D players, it would be in the neighborhood of that same 12 or so a year. Now as well consider how many college teams were actually effected by those 1&D kids leaving, what is it 4-6 teams total? Oh my goodness oh my goodness, because 6 teams are effected we need a baseball rule? 99% of the NCAA programs already see their players stay for senior seasons unless they transfer to other college programs (for the record I do not like how easy it has become for players to transfer to other programs either). Truth is for the most part it is only the blue blood programs that are effected and it is those very programs that would be most able to withstand the loss of these top 12 or so recruits. Truth is for the most part, if the blue bloods can not get the top 10-15 kids in a class they will just go get the 16-30 kids, don't feel sorry for them (which does include us as well).
BUT and here is a huge BUT, it is one decision to play in college for a single season but with a baseball rule in place it is a totally different decision, I may play college ball if I am recruit #20 for a year and improve my draft stock but 3 freakin years, why would I do that and have to forestall the NBA rookie salary cap clock for 3yrs rather than just the 1? Do the top 15 high school baseball players play college ball and be forced to stay in the college game 3yrs or do the best enter the MLB draft and get placed in the baseball minors? don't follow baseball recruiting but i strong suspect the majority of the 50 best prospects out of high school the strong majority enter the MLB minors or elect to play another sport in college. Point being with no rule baseball players would be more apt to play college ball even thou there are strong signing bonues available if they enter pro ball.
All this sets the stage for my suggesting that with a baseball like rule you will see fewer, I think much fewer top 50 college recruits actually play college ball, you don't risk the top 12 or so kids, with a baseball rule the top 40-50 may be looking at different decisions. Of course the NBA will not draft them all but it would set the stage for many of them to leave the country and get paid now rather than be forced to push off huge paydays for 3 years in to the future.
The problem with OAD in basketball is that they never see the inside of a class room.
Make the rule you can go to the NBA right out of high school but if you commit to college your there for 3 years!
Simple and it leaves it up to the kids and their family.
Or we could just let Lavar Ball advise every kid lol!
Make the rule you can go to the NBA right out of high school but if you commit to college your there for 3 years!
Simple and it leaves it up to the kids and their family.
Or we could just let Lavar Ball advise every kid lol!
Of course you don't expect anything to fit every single human perfectly! There are paths that are just as numerous as there are people. BUT Gates (or is that Zuckerberg?) met his business partners IN COLLEGE and they formed that bond while in that environment. LBJ didn't need college but most of them do. How many players rush to get that pay day and then, without the requisite maturity, network, and financial knowledge, end up dead broke within 3 years of leaving their sport? (answer was up to 80% in the NFL last I checked).
And the 2-3 year rule is completely meaningless if it isn't accompanied by rules requiring them to actually attend classes and do substantive work! They could even have a program created that athletes and other students could enter that taught things like money management, networking, and other life skills that was catered to their schedules and specific needs.
I also advocated for a rule that let's them test the waters coming straight out of high school just like they can do once the go to college. That way that top 50 or even 100 could go into the draft, attend workouts, and get feedback from some real pro evaluators that are motivated to create productive ballers. Then, if they don't feel they will get drafted (or go very high), they can withdraw, go to any college that still had a scholly, and be better for the experience!
And the 2-3 year rule is completely meaningless if it isn't accompanied by rules requiring them to actually attend classes and do substantive work! They could even have a program created that athletes and other students could enter that taught things like money management, networking, and other life skills that was catered to their schedules and specific needs.
I also advocated for a rule that let's them test the waters coming straight out of high school just like they can do once the go to college. That way that top 50 or even 100 could go into the draft, attend workouts, and get feedback from some real pro evaluators that are motivated to create productive ballers. Then, if they don't feel they will get drafted (or go very high), they can withdraw, go to any college that still had a scholly, and be better for the experience!
I have several times laid out a plan that I think would benefit all involved but it is outside the box thinking and most simply do not want to think outside of the box. I wish folks would just be truthful because I honestly do not believe most are when it comes to this topic. Truth as in this baseball rule idea, it ain't about how much folks care for a kid being able to mature in a college setting, it is about fans wanting their big time talents to stay in their beloved college program longer. It is the very same reason college fans were so in love with the 1&D rule when it was initially installed and yes the vast majority did love it day 1. And ya know who loves it today, fans of those few programs that have been able to exploit it and get those mega talents, guess who hates it? LOL
I mean, there is nothing wrong with wanting your stars to stay longer it isn't shameful to want that, it is shameful IMO to not admit the true reasons. I would love for us to go back to the old days when most of our players stayed 4yrs thou I know that isn't likely to happen. But even if it were to benefit my Heels, I just do not believe it is right to lock a kid out of playing pro ball just because he elected to play college out of high school, not for 1yr and certainly not for 2 or 3. If a kid wants to stay 2-4yrs in the college game great, I want him to have that choice over his own destiny.
But lets please not use those tired arguments of how much a kid matures in college or use it as proof that a kid wastes his money if he doesn't play college ball first. Hot news for ya, they waste their money even if they graduated college. And yeah declaring for the draft may be a mistake for some kids, well goosh golly gee, we all have to live with our mistakes don't we, you can even make a mistake if you have college degrees. And let's not fall in to that trap of thinking that the college experience for these scholarship mega athletes is in any way similar to the typical college student, you know the majority of the so called classes these kids are graded on are BS, some of course do take real classes but any coach telling you the truth will let you know quick, as a scholly athlete you are there to become great at your sport, you are not there to prepare for a career with NASA.
Speak for yourself, Dave. That is a crass mischaracterization on a number of fronts. Please don't speak for my or anyone else's motives because you will be quite wrong. And there is not a damned thing wrong with the concept of the baseball model.
Moreover this post is full of gross stereotypes, acting like being an athlete and a real student has to be mutually exclusive. It does not. How many parents bust their asses and/or dream to be able to send their kids to college?... yet some of you act like it's an inconvenience. Horseshit. As for those who really aren't geared to go to college, well, the baseball rule lets them take their chances with the draft or try to catch on with a D-League team right out of HS.
SMDH.
gary, I didn't speak for you, I stated my belief, I do actually have that right.
You specifically questioned the motive of people who disagree with your position, and I quote:
"it ain't about how much folks care for a kid being able to mature in a college setting, it is about fans wanting their big time talents to stay in their beloved college program longer."
Again, state whatever position you want, but as for motivations, speak for yourself.
BTW: A lot of good thought went into the baseball rule, with the intent of
1. Giving kids the option of trying a pro career right out of HS, while still,
2. Protecting the integrity of the college game, and
3. Putting an end to the farce of the one-semester classroom wonders
No rule is perfect --- and there's certainly a legit debate as to the number of years appropriate for basketball --- but the baseball rule has been by and large a win-win-win for MLB, collegiate programs and players... and kudos to MLB for finally recognizing they weren't the only ones who could develop future major league talent.
"it ain't about how much folks care for a kid being able to mature in a college setting, it is about fans wanting their big time talents to stay in their beloved college program longer."
^ And that is my opinion, I do not need you to agree with it but I darn sure will exercise my right to express it! When I state my opinions that is my speaking for myself.
No rule is perfect? How about the rule we had for nearly a century, the rule that was in place that not only built the NBA in to what it is today but built the college game in to what it is today, what was that rule, well it was no rule, they entered the draft at any time past the age of 18. Geez, that seemed to work pretty darn good until the NBA tried to fix something that actually was not broken with a freakin rule...
Seriously? That's what you got from that? Good grief.
Let's try this again --- questioning the motives of someone because they're advocating the baseball rule is, in fact, BS.
Huh? That rule did not exist for anywhere near a century. The fact the NBA hasn't even existed that long notwithstanding
, that is absolutely inaccurate in general. Fact is for most of NBA history you couldn't play if you left early at all. That didn't change til the Spencer Haywood court case created the "hardship" rule, which only opened up to a very few to leave early. They later opened it up to HS kids in general via the collective bargaining process, which is also where OAD came from later.Whether or not the system was broken before the OAD rule is a debatable point, but some reasonable people in the NBA thought it was. You think it wasn't. That's fine... BUT to say someone has selfish motives because they support a rule with a longer college stay is just insulting, and you can take that mess and stick it.
College fans had nothing to do with the rule change. Fact is the NBA got tired of being basically forced to offer kids millions of dollars right out of high school, without ever having seen them play against good competition. You can’t blame them for that.
I don’t hear people complaining about the NFL not drafting kids until they’re 3 years removed from high school, yet people want to complain about the NBA’s one year removed rule?
Personally, I like the baseball rule. And no, I don’t think it’s “unfair” in any way, shape, or form. But it’s up to the owners because it’s their tens of millions that are at stake. That’s as it should be.
How was the NBA forced to draft any of t hose guys, all the NBA teams had to do was not draft them? I do blame the NBA for drafting kids before they are really ready to play the game at that level.
The NFL is a very different thing from the NBA, of course the physical development aspect is important but the NFL does not have a long list of All Stars that bypassed college, the NBA does. In legal terms it is precedent, and that has been established by prospective NBA players that they can be successful, that has not been established for the NFL.
As long as one GM is willing to take a chance and draft a wunderkind out of high school, other GM’s are forced to do so as well, lest they be the GM that passed on the next KB. I don’t feel sorry one bit for these kids, they have opportunities that very, very few do. Heaven forbid that their future employer wants to see them against good competition before they offer millions of dollars to an immature teenager who’s had smoke blown up his butt since AAU ball and thinks he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Most millionaires have to work much harder to acquire their millions.
Most millionaires have to work much harder to acquire their millions.
