Inside the mess...
- Thread starter gary-7
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am I the only one who sees 'mid-range jumpers' as a possible improvement over the alternative, which as far as I could see wasn't working very well? For clarity, by mid-range jumper I mean anything shot in close (from well within the arc but not from right under the basket). Time after time I grimaced when I saw the ball taken to the basket with a predictably bad outcome., with nothing much but wide open space between the basket and the arc. Time after time I saw our own defense eaten up from that area. and I'd think, why don't we do that. RJ aside, why don't we take better advantage of the space we are creating.
I'm asking because I'm not using a question to make a statement but rather trying to get a serious answer. I've admitted that I'm no BB guru, but I've always trusted my insight. And speaking of which, I wonder if anyone else sees a comparison to the Matt Doherty ordeal, which I always wondered if it was caused by Matt's lack of cred as a coach, which made the players skeptical and made him overreact to the skepticism. When Roy came in, they snapped to attention...because he DID have that cred and wore it on his sleeve.
I'm asking because I'm not using a question to make a statement but rather trying to get a serious answer. I've admitted that I'm no BB guru, but I've always trusted my insight. And speaking of which, I wonder if anyone else sees a comparison to the Matt Doherty ordeal, which I always wondered if it was caused by Matt's lack of cred as a coach, which made the players skeptical and made him overreact to the skepticism. When Roy came in, they snapped to attention...because he DID have that cred and wore it on his sleeve.
Oh I see so its okay for the alums calling out the "family" on the bench but it's not okay to call out the "family " player? How about you even blaming the teams statistician as one of your reasons that he might have left....or maybe, just maybe, a parent doesn't like seeing mouthy alums, who are supposed to be "family", trashing the kid nstead of calling out their boys on the bench where the blame actually belongs in this case.
Funny though, I would think that you of all people, who has taken every opportunity to trash Hubert, before and since he was hired, might "get" that.
No? Ok.
You act as if those coaches on the bench are outsiders and the ex players are taking their side over the family member player.
This family mentally is why we are in this mess we are in now. Because we let it control our coaching hire.
Either way someone is taking the side of one family member over another family member.
If he truly left over what people were saying and you concur his parents didn't like it then I guess he get it from them. He didn't deserve alot of what he got and he did deserve some of it but if this is going to be a problem of him and his parents having thin skin then he is in trouble the rest of his sports career it's just part of it.
Personally I hate he is leaving because we have invested 2 years of polishing a player that I think everyone will agree that regardless of where we stand on EC would be first team AA with the right cast around him and a PG that could lead the team on a championship but now he is going to go somewhere else and be very good.
Thanks for info Gary! If we had all our positions filled with quality players as we come to expect from UNC, I feel confident EC would be a UNC legend. Hate to hear how his Assist stats have been jacked up, I would be pissed if I were him.
I feel confident that everything you posted Gary is truth, but I also feel EC hasn't done anything on the court to change perception about he should be shooting anywhere. I have seen EC shoot midrange, it still doesn't go in on a high percentage!
Wish EC would stay and be apart of team, and it means we probably struggle again, and HD's job after next year is shaky! No real PG, and no quality big men! Sorry HD, but unless you pull magic out the portal this is your last season!
I feel confident that everything you posted Gary is truth, but I also feel EC hasn't done anything on the court to change perception about he should be shooting anywhere. I have seen EC shoot midrange, it still doesn't go in on a high percentage!
Wish EC would stay and be apart of team, and it means we probably struggle again, and HD's job after next year is shaky! No real PG, and no quality big men! Sorry HD, but unless you pull magic out the portal this is your last season!
this should provide absolute comfort with Hubert, we are at the point that we are contacting Elon guards who averaged double figures in the portal. what a joke this shit is.
I am not going to get into the Hubert stay/go debate. I simply sit and wonder what Roy saw, or thought he saw, in Hubert. I guess we'll never know.
I'm assuming this is referring to Nick Dorn from Elon. I feel like he would be a reasonable option to fill the role of bench shooter at the 2/3. He isn't guaranteed to work out but he's 6'7 and shot >35% 3 on high volume and overall has really solid efficiency numbers. I don't see him being recruited as a starting option but he has a lot of upside. FWIW he is currently ranked as the 46th best option in the portal on Bart torvik. I also don't think him coming in would prevent us from landing our first options at the 2/3 (where needed).
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Shh I like watching people meltdown over losing an undersized PG who can't shoot
Interesting, Cadeau per the On3 portal watch is ranked the #29 guy in the portal, the PG we are working on is #2 and the shooting guard we are working on is #7? My understanding is Cadeau entered the portal with a do not contact tag, wondering how so many suitors are lining up for him with that tag? Maybe the do not contact was wrongly reported, IDK?
I understand many are underwhelmed with his performance. I'm just a fan but I think EC leaving is a bad look in many ways. Is he immature, a whiner? Maybe but he is a real talent and this team will miss having him big time. Sure, at times I have been a bit disappointed watching him but other times shocked at what he is capable of. I'm not here to discuss good or bad coaching but I do think HD is partially responsible for EC's lack of progression and contribution. EC as he matured, could have been one of the top PGs in the country. Right now, I think he is the top in the portal.
The catch with this assessment, which doe snot surprise me at all, is tat it means the astute reader will then apply this knowledge to everything this year. So, if Hubert as HC has been a key problem in the development of Cadeau, then people need to assume that maybe Hubert also ruined whatever potential Cade Tyson had to help the team.
AS I warned when Roy made his annoijncment and I predicted that there o2wul be no real search because ROY and top brass wanted Hubert Davis to be the first black UNC basketball HC, Rit stepped aside because he was losing it, clearly. Moist want to continue to ride the pony that Rioy was losing it only because of the new issues, but Roy was just going over the hill.
When the HC must be repaced because oa downturn, it is always a risk, often a HUGE risk, to hire the next HC from the staff. Quite simply, if Hubert had been able to reverse as HC what Roy had overseen into adownturnm, then Hubert as assistant would have begun making such an impact, thereby lessening g the downturn.
Hubert did no such thing as assistant, which means Hubert was fully a key part of the problem.
I am certain that Hubert never should have been given the job. Ray any anyone else who pined too have Hubert follow Roy should have made certain that Hubert left about 3 years before Riot would step down and be HC somewhere. he badly needed both HC experience and experience coaching somewhere other than UNC. But they were determined to follow standard Big Government and Big Corporation patterns of Affirmative Action for top brass: pick someone well before the job is open, and place that person in the structure and try to mentor on the side to take over the top job. IUf you can see how horrifically most larger coities have been run increasingly the past 40 years you should be able to guess how the same pattern works out in anything to do with the university world. including sports. Less than desirable results most of the time.
Maybe Hubert can grow into the job over another 3-5 years. But more likely that time will produce more of what we have already seen. And by then the UNC basketball program may have become cemented into an NC State-like major downturn that will take decades to undo.
On the other hand, as even the most obtuse basketball-firsters with responsibility even at an IU and a KU have been forced to accept, football is AUTOCRAT nationally, and that means basketball as a school's #1 sports mean the athletics depart,enyt just keeps getting farther and fryer behind, which eventually will take a major toll on basketball too. So that mean that UNC now MUST finally invest in football as it showoff have been doing since the end off the Choo CXhoo days, when the demand arose to hold football down kin the name of stopping the rise of profressionalism. That being the case, can UNC afford to fire alum Hubert? He is a good guy. He is not producing losing records. Because of race UNC can claim self-righteous Brownie points for keeping him. All that while football finally gets positioned to save the UNC athletics departments's national power? That may be the best move.
Without diving into all of that, personnel usage and development was a cogent issue beyond Eliot, e.g., Withers (from starter, to light rotation, to mostly relegated, to starter), and Tyson (from presumed starter, to totally relegated, to light rotation).
Obviously, minutes and roles get adjusted, and it's not unusual for guys to go in or out of starting slots, but the usage extremes were head-scratching.
I will, however, address one point from the rest of that:
Pardon my bluntness, but folks saying Hubert was a bad hire from the outset is spurious, because literally nobody knows who's gonna turn out to be "good" or "bad", no matter how flaahy the resume, or lack therof. There have been some mighty flops over the years from "big-name" hires, BTW.
So, if folks 4 years ago wanted to (and did) say that Hubert was a bad hire, well, folks back in 1961 (by that same criteria) could've (and did) say Dean Smith was a bad hire... just as folks in Lawrence, KS in 1988 could've (and did) say that Roy Williams was a bad hire.
I mean, hell, there were folks in 2003 (!!!) saying Roy was a bad hire to come back here --- and some of that nonsense was posted RIGHT FRIGGIN HERE on this board --- because they acted like it was bad to hire another Carolina guy (insert face-palm emoji).
On that note, let's set the record straight: Doherty failed here for much of the same reasons Hubert is struggling --- NOT because they were Carolina guys --- because they coached like they FORGOT they were Carolina guys.
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Dean and Roy where college basketball coaches at UNC, but during there time they also were considered educators at UNC, and mentors to 18 year old men, trying to develop into men. Dean and Roy coached guys who played for there local high school.
HD is coaching in an era that says, all I want you to do is win. Up until more of this EC news came out I really thought in character wise he projects to be the same as Roy and Dean. Problem is 18 year Olds today have already traveled around country year round. So the education part of being a coach today is not required.
HD IMHO is following the UNC coaching playback, the problem is the game has changed. I never liked being called a "Blue Blood" because it projected old school ways of doing things, and Americans love nothing more than hating on "Old school ways". I believe recruits are being told how we don't develop freshmen into lottery picks because we play upper classes. I believe our strictness to public perception is being thought of as a negative to recruits.
We want Puke recruits, meaning recruit top 4 freshmen and do it again the next year. We'll Puke is paying!
HD is coaching in an era that says, all I want you to do is win. Up until more of this EC news came out I really thought in character wise he projects to be the same as Roy and Dean. Problem is 18 year Olds today have already traveled around country year round. So the education part of being a coach today is not required.
HD IMHO is following the UNC coaching playback, the problem is the game has changed. I never liked being called a "Blue Blood" because it projected old school ways of doing things, and Americans love nothing more than hating on "Old school ways". I believe recruits are being told how we don't develop freshmen into lottery picks because we play upper classes. I believe our strictness to public perception is being thought of as a negative to recruits.
We want Puke recruits, meaning recruit top 4 freshmen and do it again the next year. We'll Puke is paying!
Everyone of the portal ranks I've seen has Elliot in the second tier for available PG's, behind the 3 premiere PG's in to this point.
He is consistently ranked right about even with the kid from Georgia Tech, and the 2 mid major guys Pop Issacs and Quimari Peterson.
I believe that speaks volumes and takes all of the emotion out of the evaluation.
He can't shoot, he is terrible on defense, he isn't exactly fast. His quality is he can run an offense. If EC goes to a loaded team he will look better, but does a loaded team need a guy who can't shoot, and isn't fast?
2nd tier all day
2nd tier all day
You don't realize what you have until it's gone...
Okay what do you want? EC is in the portal, and wants out! I stand by his negatives as well as his one positive.
EC brings us same results as last year, so no I am not depressed by him leaving, and think we of all people can use him, but pretend EC is somehow Chris Paul is ridiculous.
EC was told his starting position wasn't promised, and that is why he is complaining. I have no proof of last statement.
EC brings us same results as last year, so no I am not depressed by him leaving, and think we of all people can use him, but pretend EC is somehow Chris Paul is ridiculous.
EC was told his starting position wasn't promised, and that is why he is complaining. I have no proof of last statement.
The side which is proven to be right will be 100% dependent on who they get to replace EC. If they somehow close their eyes, swing their hardest, and land Dent. Those who said EC needs to go will revel in their correctness. If all of the tier 1 point guards choose other destinations and we are left with Seth and a freshman, all of those who said EC should stay will have valid complaints.
I actually think his defense is pretty good...The teams defense is horrible, with no rim protector (at times he was the rim protector lol).
To talk down on EC’s defense but give lemon-pepper Davis a pass is crazy.
You might want to change your handle from _B5 to _BS after that comment. Nobody ever gave RJ a pass on his D.
These points make me consider Carolina in being a year or so late to the NIL portal game may have revealed issues that will complicate securing the right sized positional players(Hubert said we have to get bigger from A to Z). Hubert has had 2 years to teach, practice, implement, and refine Elliott Cadeaus talents within his offense. The results were highs and lows. It has not been consistent upward growth for the point guard position. How does Hubert sell these portal elites that they will quickly adapt to his system? What will cause next years potential PG to be uber successful when Cadeau, a high level talent, was not. Every PG candidate and his agent are now aware of some external issues. Some players may be unsure Carolina is a plug and play school. Im sure the pressure is immense on Hubert.
Dave, I actually think that is all Carolina is right now… a plug and play school. Hubert and staff have shown no ability to utilise nor develop young players….
That's easy: he saw. a black former UNC player who is truly a good man in every sense. He also saw that Hubert is smarter than most other former UNC players under the age of 65. So if Roy could train Hubert to be his successor, then Roy could be the Virtuous Coach who made certain his successor was not white. Roy's bleeding heart needed to exercise.
The same reason for why Dean was adamant that Phil Ford would replace him until such time as many responsible people convinced him that Ford's issues with alcohol would rule that out for certain. All of Dean's anger from that eventually boiled over into a hatred for Doherty that became public long before Doherty coached a single practice as UNC HC.
A serious question. If we strikeout with the portal this year and have to “settle” for players it that enough to fire Hubert? I feel like we are always missing out on the upper echelon of talent and “settling” for what scraps we can get when we should be able to reel in top talent. This problem would have to fall on the head of Hubert and the perceived mess he has created and players not wanting to be part of it. I would love to see Hubert fix this and survive but just not sure he can.
Man lock this thread up….Nobody cares about this dude….He was gone in January….
How many years does he play in the NBA….
How many years does he play in the NBA….
The mess is college sports. Final four teams are those that pay the most without a salary cap. The destruction of college sports is so sad.
yet it should be workable with a salary cap, and I don't see why one of sorts can't be implemented.
Learned to not defend HD, but RJ was a sketchy Sophmore, he turned him into ACC player of year.
apparently Ryan, Ingram, and Bacot had more to do with RJ's improvement than HD did.
Like I said no need to defend HD--- lol. HD second year was all on HD, and this is why I say that. You have three players who would become stars. Caleb Love Pac 10 player of year, RJ Davis ACC player of year, and Bacot I think made first/second team All-American.
Year 3 HD team was exciting, but I blame HD for having no foresight into the coming, no big man years.
This year HD gets to me because as a collection of guards and wings I would roll with our team.
All we needed was to descent big men. Lubin is above descent but I swear Ian Jackson is taller than Lubin.
The mess is about PUKE is getting way more talent than we are, and we are blaming HD, while everyone else is saying pay the players, and they will come. HD needs to rob a play out of Rat face playback, and start coaching on Olympic team. I almost see Scheyer right now with his application already in!
