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Little piece of intel...

gary-7

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Jan 27, 2003
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...came to me second hand through my source. Original source was a very recent ex womens bball player (not gonna give any more detail lest she be IDed. Nothing earth-shaking:
-Shenanigans related to the academic irregularities in womens program were blatant to the point it spooked some players who didn't want to get compromised.
-Other than the concerns there were too many afam majors, Roy had no awareness of the actual nature of what was going on there. Mens program had no involvement in anything untoward.

(the above is old news to most of us, the next one is not)

-The scandal and/or negative recruiting surrounding it directly cost us Markannen
 
I'd be willing to bet it's costmus several recruits Gary. Has there ever been an investigation that lasted longer? Dragging this out indefinitely is the NCAA's punishment, and it's been worse than putting us on probation.

I think it was Mike that said we would be learning the results in May per inside sources. Does anyone know anything definitive?
 
DG openly tells the listener negative recruiting/uncertainty is why Brandon Ingram isn't a Tar Heel.
 
DG openly tells the listener negative recruiting/uncertainty is why Brandon Ingram isn't a Tar Heel.
I believe Ingram grew up a dook fan, at least that's what I've heard many times. I think he kept us in his top 5 because his dad and Stackhouse are Heels fans. But I've no doubt the scandal and negative recruiting have crippled our recruiting.
 
I'd be willing to bet it's costmus several recruits Gary. Has there ever been an investigation that lasted longer? Dragging this out indefinitely is the NCAA's punishment, and it's been worse than putting us on probation.

I think it was Mike that said we would be learning the results in May per inside sources. Does anyone know anything definitive?

Yeah, I think it was a factor in Bam as well as Giles & Smith, early on when they were still impressionable. By far not the only reasons, it became more about advisors and handlers that drove those final decisions. Assumed it was a big time issue with Markennson because he and his family were not on the ground here in the states to gain a better feel for the situation, all they could research and get from media reports was bad things.
 
Roy has indicated that the "scandal" has cost us at least 6 players, that was before this year.
 
Amen, Steat. All we can do is control the things over which we have control. That's very simplistic, but true.

Unfortunately, whenever the punishment is meted out, enough damage has been done to our recruiting in the last 2-3 years that may take even longer than that to recover. Recruiting is the lifeblood of any program and ours has been significantly curtailed. We're pulling in good classes but not the caliber we've grown accustomed to. And our main rivals are taking advantage of it. Who would have thought 3 years ago that we would whiff on the 3 top players in a very strong 2016 NC class?
 
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Perception is reality in this world. Don't expect many outside of the UNC family to dive into the Wainstein Report and get the real facts. UNC women's basketball will get hit hard by the NCAA. There were NO allegations against men's basketball in the NCAA LOA. Nothing of any significance will happen to the Men's program. UNC is a hated school by rivals. Don't expect to get any positive press from any outsiders...just don't expect it.. Then when you hear the negative recruiting stuff hopefully you will not get so riled up. I will tell you one thing. Roy is not going to let Duke or any other team beat him again on getting his share of North Carolina recruits. Leaky Black is on board and Roy has offers out to several other high schoolers. These kids have an open invitation to attend every UNC basketball and football games for the rest of their high school careers.There is so much on the Premium site about what is going on it would blow your mind. If the team plays the way it played against Miami this past Saturday they will win the Dance.
 
The thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around is Why should ANY possible NCAA sanctions keep a kid from going to any school if he is a One And Done kinda player?

Yeah, I know some of these guys say that they want to play for an NCAA title, but a lot of these One And Done kids are simply playing for themselves with hopes of improving their draft stock....Example, Ben Simmons of LSU who was recently suspended due to academic reasons, which I assume means that he's been missing some classes lately?

Kinda made me sick when I kept reading during the recruitment of Ingram, that Brandon Ingram and his family were worried about possible NCAA Sanctions at Carolina as a reason he chose Dook.....To which, a friend of mine said: "What difference should it make to him since he's only going to be in College for one year, and Carolina wasn't going to be put on probation this season, anyhow?"

#cop out excuse for Ingram. since he was obviously just stringing Carolina along until he signed with Dook!

Can the same be said for Markannen?

Don't know, but now seems likely!

Sorry, but have no respect for kids like that, and see them as a "Me-First" type individual, which is a character flaw that I personally despise....

Enjoyed Ingrams' struggles against Louisville on saturday, and hope he struggles for the rest of his College Career, which will likely end after this season!

Dook sucks!
 
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The thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around is Why should ANY possible NCAA sanctions keep a kid from going to any school if he is a One And Done kinda player?

Yeah, I know some of these guys say that they want to play for an NCAA title, but a lot of these One And Done kids are simply playing for themselves with hopes of improving their draft stock....Example, Ben Simmons of LSU who was recently suspended due to academic reasons, which I assume means that he's been missing some classes lately?

Kinda made me sick when I kept reading during the recruitment of Ingram, that Brandon Ingram and his family were worried about possible NCAA Sanctions at Carolina as a reason he chose Dook.....To which, a friend of mine said: "What difference should it make to him since he's only going to be in College for one year, and Carolina wasn't going to be put on probation this season, anyhow?"

#cop out excuse for Ingram. since he was obviously just stringing Carolina along until he signed with Dook!

Can the same be said for Markannen?

Don't know, but now seems likely!

Sorry, but have no respect for kids like that, and see them as a "Me-First" type individual, which is a character flaw that I personally despise....

Enjoyed Ingrams' struggles against Louisville on saturday, and hope he struggles for the rest of his College Career, which will likely end after this season!

Dook sucks!
I still think the Ingram situation was mixed with a lot of smoke and a lot of stink. There was an increasing smell as it went on that he was trolling us by saying that stuff publicly about the scandal, which just served to exacerbate it in the media. If he wanted to go to dook (which honestly I think he did, given his lust to be featured as a one-and-done) then fine... but it's pretty classless.to spout that garbage, particularly given that it couldn't possibly impact him anyway.

As for Markannen I'm not sure he's a one-and-done, and he got a good dose of negative crap from Sean Miiler & co. At least he had the class not to say anything publicly.
 
Lets be honest here about negative recruiting. It happens everywhere. And if the shoe was on the other foot dont be naive enough to think that our coachs would not use it to their advantage. We are in this situation because of things that did happen at our university. We just have to suck it up and overcome it. When the dust settles the abcers will be just that and they always will be. Nothing is going to change it.
 
Lets be honest here about negative recruiting. It happens everywhere. And if the shoe was on the other foot dont be naive enough to think that our coachs would not use it to their advantage. We are in this situation because of things that did happen at our university. We just have to suck it up and overcome it. When the dust settles the abcers will be just that and they always will be. Nothing is going to change it.

You may be right, but I just don't think that "Negative Recruting" seems to be Roy Williams' style....Besides, why does Carolina need to spread negative garbage to recruit anybody to play basketball in Chapel Hill?....

I know other schools do it, but that doesn't mean that Carolina resorts to using those same kind of recruiting tactics, nor should they?

Maybe I am native about my favorite team, but I just don't believe that Roy has to resort to doing things the way other schools do because he has more class and character than some of those other yahoos, but that's just my opinion!
 
Recruiting can turn quickly. If you get a few top recruits once the cloud is gone...that can change a team quickly. Kentucky was in horrible shape when Cal came and he turned it quickly. The game has changed.
 
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You may be right, but I just don't think that "Negative Recruting" seems to be Roy Williams' style....Besides, why does Carolina need to spread negative garbage to recruit anybody to play basketball in Chapel Hill?....

I know other schools do it, but that doesn't mean that Carolina resorts to using those same kind of recruiting tactics, nor should they?

Maybe I am native about my favorite team, but I just don't believe that Roy has to resort to doing things the way other schools do because he has more class and character than some of those other yahoos, but that's just my opinion!
Im just saying that if the situation we are in now was at state or dook do you not think it wouldnt be brought up by our coachs? Think about that. And what about the fan base. We would be all over them rubbing it in their faces just as they are doing to us. It is just human nature.
 
The thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around is Why should ANY possible NCAA sanctions keep a kid from going to any school if he is a One And Done kinda player?

Yeah, I know some of these guys say that they want to play for an NCAA title, but a lot of these One And Done kids are simply playing for themselves with hopes of improving their draft stock....Example, Ben Simmons of LSU who was recently suspended due to academic reasons, which I assume means that he's been missing some classes lately?

Kinda made me sick when I kept reading during the recruitment of Ingram, that Brandon Ingram and his family were worried about possible NCAA Sanctions at Carolina as a reason he chose Dook.....To which, a friend of mine said: "What difference should it make to him since he's only going to be in College for one year, and Carolina wasn't going to be put on probation this season, anyhow?"

#cop out excuse for Ingram. since he was obviously just stringing Carolina along until he signed with Dook!

Can the same be said for Markannen?

Don't know, but now seems likely!

Sorry, but have no respect for kids like that, and see them as a "Me-First" type individual, which is a character flaw that I personally despise....

Enjoyed Ingrams' struggles against Louisville on saturday, and hope he struggles for the rest of his College Career, which will likely end after this season!

Dook sucks!

Rick, I have said many times, the NCAA stuff was a factor but unlike many, I do not believe it was the majority factor for most recruits, Markennin being an exception because their research was not going to show much more than the story the media has pimped out.

The larger 2 factors IMHO, is that UNC is not under Roy, considered to be a program that features its freshmen, in part because our style of play is a bit more complicated and Roy is not a coach that feels he should dumb down his style of play just so freshmen can be stars from day 1. And I agree with Roy on that completely.

The other factor is that because we have so many multi year players we have already established talents in the positions that many of these one & doners want to play. JMM for example was a place holder at the 4, may not have been the best 4 in the country but he being at the 4 certainly made a one & done 4 think twice about having to give up so much PT. Meeks is a place holder right now and has been for a couple years. But a program like Ky or duke now days, they move those frosh stars in and then move them right back out again leaving huge PT for the next group of high school phenoms. In doing so they then get branded as a one & done friendly school because others are doing what they want to do and that is get to the NBA ASAP.

Dedicating to the one & done is high risk but it is as well as high reward as both duke and Ky have experienced. Duke for example is not your typical duke team this season, they are weak in big man slots and their go to roster is very young. Clearly Jeter is a bust if you were looking for him to come in and be the solution to that duke front court THIS SEASON (not saying he will not be a solid player in the future, talking about right now). Skal being a savior for Ky right now is much the same thing. Duke has been dismissed VERY early in the NCAAT and Ky missed it when they had Noel go down to injury and yes, both have won titles with it, as I said, high risk and high reward.
 
Fans will be fans. But I don't believe our staff uses negative recruiting, we have our fine university and a proud athletic history to use as selling points. Roy certainly has his shortcomings as a coach, particularly his ingame acumen. All coaches do. But his character has never been in doubt, at least in my mind.

He's the antithesis of Krazywhiskey. He's not the X's and O's guy that K is but then K's character is much lacking in comparison. Roy is never going to do whatever it takes to win, K will. I'll take a few less wins and Roy's integrity anytime.
 
Lets be honest here about negative recruiting. It happens everywhere. And if the shoe was on the other foot dont be naive enough to think that our coachs would not use it to their advantage. We are in this situation because of things that did happen at our university. We just have to suck it up and overcome it. When the dust settles the abcers will be just that and they always will be. Nothing is going to change it.
Sorry but no, that's one of those easy cliches that whitewashes the culprits. Negative recruiting may be common --- more common than it used to be perhaps --- but it is not universal. Dean Smith did not do it and I have never heard of Roy or his staff doing it either. And trust me, that stuff makes it through the grapevine.

There are also different levels of negative recruiting. If a coach tells a kid "you have a better chance of starting here than there because of their roster... or because they never start freshmen" that's on the milder side. Or like when Cal told Bam a few months ago (re State) "when's the last time they had a one-and-done?". The next level is when a coach tells a kid another school's going on probation or is on a downward spiral if it's true. Then there's the worst level of just making sh** up --- and these coaches know full well when they're saying UNC is "going on probation" or that men's basketball program was even involved in the scandal they are just making sh** up.
 
...meaning what? o_O

Meaning some of us think our world is perfect and everyone else's is not. Recruiting IS a sales job. If you yourself (anyone reading this post) are a salesman you understand. If you are not, you don't. I'm not gonna write a book on the subject. I got sales to make!
 
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^^^ things can change awful fast and there are times when you have to wallow in the mud to keep ur sale. That doesn't mean you lie. It means you have to tell an ugly truth about ur competitor. Something one wouldn't do under normal circumstances. But they aren't always normal. And that cuts both ways.
 
^^^ things can change awful fast and there are times when you have to wallow in the mud to keep ur sale. That doesn't mean you lie. It means you have to tell an ugly truth about ur competitor. Something one wouldn't do under normal circumstances. But they aren't always normal. And that cuts both ways.
Apparently reading is hard. As I posted there is a difference between telling an ugly truth and making sh** up. Anyone who tells a kid UNC men's basketball is going on probation is making sh** up. If that's the way you sell then I want no part of what you're selling... no matter where the hell you live.
 
Apparently reading is hard. As I posted there is a difference between telling an ugly truth and making sh** up. Anyone who tells a kid UNC men's basketball is going on probation is making sh** up. If that's the way you sell then I want no part of what you're selling... no matter where the hell you live.

Ok. So who is making sh*t up?
 
Sorry but no, that's one of those easy cliches that whitewashes the culprits. Negative recruiting may be common --- more common than it used to be perhaps --- but it is not universal. Dean Smith did not do it and I have never heard of Roy or his staff doing it either. And trust me, that stuff makes it through the grapevine.

There are also different levels of negative recruiting. If a coach tells a kid "you have a better chance of starting here than there because of their roster... or because they never start freshmen" that's on the milder side. Or like when Cal told Bam a few months ago (re State) "when's the last time they had a one-and-done?".

And this is perfectly acceptable, IMO.

And The next level is when a coach tells a kid another school's going on probation or is on a downward spiral if it's true. Then there's the worst level of just making sh** up --- and these coaches know full well when they're saying UNC is "going on probation" or that men's basketball program was even involved in the scandal they are just making sh** up.

And this is where they cross the line. I don't think there's any doubt that this goes on at some programs either. When you start fabricating lies in order to gain an advantage, it's unethical and goes beyond the pale.

That's why Gott-thief's Irresponsible rumormongering bothers me so much. The interminable NCAA investigation has already spawned negative recruiting and perpetuating completely unfounded rumors on national TV exacerbates the situation. I'm trying to get contact information for CBS so that anyone who wishes can register a complaint.
 
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Seriously? OK. Just a few I've heard specifically about through the AAU grapevine (just over the past six months) include Miller, Cal, Gott and Capel.
But apparently making stuff up is a perfect synonym of "ugly" "truth" for some. The ugly part of it is that it is wholly untrue. But to so many in life, truth is a relative term, and is overrated. Such as the poster above who basically said lying is cool, the ends justify the means. The fact that the person doing the lying has lost all integrity, and has dumped on the character and integrity of others, so what? Again - ends justifies the means. Making the sale. That's all that matters.

One last point: as Gary pointed out above, making stuff up, lying, helps you TODAY in getting that prize recruit or making the big sale, but sooner or later you do this stuff and you get a reputation (like Gary mentioned in the AAU grapevine). And then the liar's reputation is not good, at least for recruiting high integrity kids, the type that I'd want at UNC, IMO. Same goes with sales in life (and everybody is a salesperson of some sort, even if its selling their personal abilities to an employer)..... you lie / make stuff up long enough, and eventually it comes back to burn you. And that is damage that is almost impossible to undo or correct.
 
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Win the NCAA title and and there will be crickets. That's what the Heels can control.
Bingo ! Ingram went to play with the defending national champs ! For kids today looking into programs winning in 2009 and 2005 day was back in the day, old school !

Roy goes out and wins it all this year and every thing will be great until we lose our first game the following year and then it is back to Roy can't coach, recruit or chew gum !;););););)



PS Pay me Millions a year to coach the greatest program ever and you can complain about me all day everyday as long as you want !!!! Comes with having the greatest job in all college basketball !
 
Something I heard today. If a mod thinks it's inappropriate & takes it down, I totally understand.
I work with a family member of Emily Sullivan, she signed with UNC out of Newburgh Indiana.
I was told today that there's rumors that Coach Hatchell will step down after this year. That this NCAA stuff is really wearing on her physically & emotionally.
 
Ingram & Capel & K played UNC & Roy to keep a shooting guard/small forward from committing to UNC he was going to Dook since he got his offer ... Hopefully the ncaa will pick up & get out of chapel hill soon ... I cant wait for the day till they camp out up the road !! I can see it coming ....
 
The Heels are one 5-star wing and one solid big (for 2016 season) from making the Elite 8 for the next 5 years. On the other hand, a starting line-up with Berry, Williams, Pinson, Hicks is a Sweet 16 entry, at worst.
Meaning some of us think our world is perfect and everyone else's is not. Recruiting IS a sales job. If you yourself (anyone reading this post) are a salesman you understand. If you are not, you don't. I'm not gonna write a book on the subject. I got sales to make!

I'm in sales and I agree for the most part. The key is selling with integrity. Eventually, if you are not telling the truth it will come back to haunt you. It only takes one situation to blow your cover.
 
Something I heard today. If a mod thinks it's inappropriate & takes it down, I totally understand.
I work with a family member of Emily Sullivan, she signed with UNC out of Newburgh Indiana.
I was told today that there's rumors that Coach Hatchell will step down after this year. That this NCAA stuff is really wearing on her physically & emotionally.
From what I was told that would certainly not surprise me and may possibly be for the best for all concerned vis a vis impending sanctions.
 
In Sales it is poor form to directly bash your competitor, but you should always set traps.....
 
Thanks for the OP Gary, always appreciate any info from close to/within the program and as always, take it for what it's worth without judging the source.

No matter where you sit on the ethics side of recruiting, it's pretty obvious negative sales/down-talking has had its effect - whether AFAM or playing time.

On PT, I personally wonder how much JMM hampered efforts. The guy stuck around for 2yrs longer than anyone thought he would and recruits would have seen that. Also, what OAD would want to go to UNC when JMM was there taking the starting job?
 
^^^ things can change awful fast and there are times when you have to wallow in the mud to keep ur sale. That doesn't mean you lie. It means you have to tell an ugly truth about ur competitor. Something one wouldn't do under normal circumstances. But they aren't always normal. And that cuts both ways.

I have been in sales most of my life and got to tell ya, if you feel like you have to "wallow in the mud", and I think we all know what you mean by that, then you have failed to build value in the product you represent to both your prospect as well as yourself. One or both do not believe in either your company, your product, or you.

If you believe in your product, if you believe in your company, and if you believe in yourself, there is no need to worry about the other guy that may sell a similar product. People buy what fills their need when they understand they have a need, a product that they like and a company they like, and from someone they trust. If they need, like, and trust you and you did your job of explaining the benefits & value of your product they will buy from you. If you fail in one of those areas then they begin to consider someone else and that is what drags you in to wallowing in the mud.

You need to work on your own presentation because if you are constantly having to wallow in the mud then I promise you that you are missing a key element of building trust or being able to have your client fully understand how what you offer fills their need.

When you sell, there are several; steps involved and when followed you just do not worry about what some other company has. Most often this kind of thing revolves around your ability to control a presentation, sales is a constant battle for control. Our saying is, it is your home but I control it while I am here. I don't care where you are, in your clients office, at your office, at a retail location, or sitting at their kitchen table, if you can not take total control of the discussion then you do not have control over the situation and without control, you may as well excuse yourself and leave because you are wasting your time and your clients time.

From what you stated it seems you are getting a lot of "yeah, this is OK but I want to do some comparison shopping before I decide". That is the oldest no in the book, it is better known as the "I want to think about it" no. Your presentation from hello has to be geared toward killing the I want to think about it no.

Now if I had to guess, based on your screen name, my guess would be you sell real estate for Beezer homes. Tough market and one I personally have never been drawn to, mortgage side cool but the problem with new home sales is most home buyers have the process of knowing they need to look at least 5-10 homes before they decide, that is so ingrained in them because EVERYONE tells them that is how you are supposed to buy a house. But that does not mean you have to trash DR Horton in order to sell your home, you build as much value in your home and you as you can and realize you are not in a 1 sit sales situation. I prefer a one sit sell cycle deal personally for a high ticket product.

Roy has a great product to sell but some of his prospects don't feel what Roy offers fills their exact unique need. So Roy needs to either change what he is offerring or accept the fact that he is not going to get every prospect he wants. Definition of insanity being doing the same things you have always done but expecting different results...
 
I have been in sales most of my life and got to tell ya, if you feel like you have to "wallow in the mud", and I think we all know what you mean by that, then you have failed to build value in the product you represent to both your prospect as well as yourself. One or both do not believe in either your company, your product, or you.

If you believe in your product, if you believe in your company, and if you believe in yourself, there is no need to worry about the other guy that may sell a similar product. People buy what fills their need when they understand they have a need, a product that they like and a company they like, and from someone they trust. If they need, like, and trust you and you did your job of explaining the benefits & value of your product they will buy from you. If you fail in one of those areas then they begin to consider someone else and that is what drags you in to wallowing in the mud.

You need to work on your own presentation because if you are constantly having to wallow in the mud then I promise you that you are missing a key element of building trust or being able to have your client fully understand how what you offer fills their need.

When you sell, there are several; steps involved and when followed you just do not worry about what some other company has. Most often this kind of thing revolves around your ability to control a presentation, sales is a constant battle for control. Our saying is, it is your home but I control it while I am here. I don't care where you are, in your clients office, at your office, at a retail location, or sitting at their kitchen table, if you can not take total control of the discussion then you do not have control over the situation and without control, you may as well excuse yourself and leave because you are wasting your time and your clients time.

From what you stated it seems you are getting a lot of "yeah, this is OK but I want to do some comparison shopping before I decide". That is the oldest no in the book, it is better known as the "I want to think about it" no. Your presentation from hello has to be geared toward killing the I want to think about it no.

Now if I had to guess, based on your screen name, my guess would be you sell real estate for Beezer homes. Tough market and one I personally have never been drawn to, mortgage side cool but the problem with new home sales is most home buyers have the process of knowing they need to look at least 5-10 homes before they decide, that is so ingrained in them because EVERYONE tells them that is how you are supposed to buy a house. But that does not mean you have to trash DR Horton in order to sell your home, you build as much value in your home and you as you can and realize you are not in a 1 sit sales situation. I prefer a one sit sell cycle deal personally for a high ticket product.

Roy has a great product to sell but some of his prospects don't feel what Roy offers fills their exact unique need. So Roy needs to either change what he is offerring or accept the fact that he is not going to get every prospect he wants. Definition of insanity being doing the same things you have always done but expecting different results...

My Gawd, man. Just wow. You didn't even bring the shitty donuts and bad coffee to the meeting!

Take a day off and go do something fun. I don't need your out of touch reality from your 1950's door knocking sells meetings. I'm still floored by your post ...
 
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