Little piece of intel...

[Tom79]

Thedude1, I do not have the ability or capability to bring out the Tombstone out of catacombs but there is someone who is always available so just some friendly advise I would not push my luck...

Dude1, you might first read Wainstein, then come back. You might also read Bradley Bethel. Please do both before you post rubbish again.
In particular, please read the portions of Wainstein that discuss/respond to NOA's that include Men's basketball/AFAM and Football/AFAM, and Women's basketball/AFAM. It is quite clear.

As idunk said, don't push your luck, there are many of us on this site that know the entire "loss of institutional control" from the very beginning and in excruciating detail.

You might even catch up on court news as the cases you mention were tossed.

 

[tarheel0910]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he trying to get a book deal around the time he said that crap about his classes? That doesn't exactly help one's credibility.

 

[coryfly]

McCants really isn't relevant to the NCAA. He wouldn't talk to them so his 'story' really isn't part of anything that will happen to the university. I think Willingham is in the same boat as well. They may try and get us or whatever but it won't be because of anything regarding those two.

 

[Ozheelfan]

And another good thread has been hijacked......

 

[DevilBlue]

McCants really isn't relevant to the NCAA. He wouldn't talk to them so his 'story' really isn't part of anything that will happen to the university. I think Willingham is in the same boat as well. They may try and get us or whatever but it won't be because of anything regarding those two.

With the NCAA having no power to supena individuals only through voluntarily coming to talk to them would anything either says carry any weight. I would assume that what was said in the past likely might lead to suspicion or inquiry but without a face to face I would questions how much weight it could carry without hard facts on paper to support it.

 

[trig81]

Is men's basketball involved? Not to the extent that you're trying to imply. Throwing out McCants bs proves you have an agenda and are not interested in any other point of view

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I've read bit and pieces of the W Report... what are you saying I am missing that changes the quote I provided? I also have read a bit of Bradley Bethel, and again... what has he said that changes what I said? I suppose it wasn't clear to me, so some clarity would be great.

I'm not trying to push my luck... I read someone say "basketball isn't involved" and so I was posting some quotes from the NOA, from UNC's reports, and from UNC players that seem to indicate that basketball actually *was* involved.

And I didn't mention any court cases. Which do you mean?

I don't think anyone really knows what is going to happen with this case, but I think to argue that men's basketball isn't involved seems to ignore a great deal of information to the contrary.

I think whether or not men's bball players took AFAM classes, majored in AFAM, or whatever is fairly inconsequential in what people here are trying to figure out.

The million dollar question is whether or not the men's bball team will receive sanctions for anything. Nothing you have posted has indicated that the NCAA will be laying down sanctions, or has the grounds to do so - I realize that's probably not what you were intending to do, as you mentioned you were just repeating other information, but whether the NCAA will be laying down sanctions is infinitely more relevant to this discussion than whether any "shadiness" occurred.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Personally I find it hard to believe they're going to be able to lay down sanctions for anything. I had several friends while I was a student at UNC sign up for woodworking classes, AFAM classes, womens studies classes, anything that got them an "Easy A" to boost GPA. I had several friends at other schools that did the same. They all essentially got a B by showing up, and if they did any of the minute amount of work required, they got bumped up to an A. I think the only way sanctions would be coming is if they can prove that the athletes were getting preferential treatment, i.e. getting a boosted grade that didn't accurately represent their work - and would not have been given to a non-athlete student for the same work. I think that will be very difficult to prove, considering having a pulse got you an A or B in those classes, they won't have much of a "control sample" to show that the athletes were getting grades that they didnt deserve.

 

[trig81]

Dude1,that's bull shit. What McCants said was much different than what has actually been proven in ANY of the investigations! His teammates to the man said their experience was not at all like his, so,umm, no to bring up what he says is not fair, it's biased.

You prove me correct about your agenda.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I also don't think that "steering" kids to those classes is necessarily a violation is it? Steering kids to the class, and then having the teacher give them an undeserved grade is a violation, but merely suggesting they take easier classes can't possibly be a violation, right? I mean, if an athlete is in danger of becoming academically ineligible, and a coach looks at his class load and he's taking a bunch of advanced calculus, organic chemistry, and theoretical physics classes - I think a proper piece of advice would be, you might wanna drop one or two of those classes and take an elective.

 

[Bubspub88]

With the NCAA having no power to supena individuals only through voluntarily coming to talk to them would anything either says carry any weight. I would assume that what was said in the past likely might lead to suspicion or inquiry but without a face to face I would questions how much weight it could carry without hard facts on paper to support it.

Who is "Lance Thomas"

 

[trig81]

^ It wasn't one person said this, another said that. IT WAS McCants said one thing, entire team said another.

And you're taking a HUGE leap by suggesting that each player's transcript would reflect McCants.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Given that a member of the infractions committee recently said something about "making sure that schools finally understand that they will suffer from cheating far more than they will get an advantage"... I suspect they will hit UNC basketball. I could, of course, be wrong!

You still haven't explained the "cheating" part though. Were the AFAM classes ridiculously easy? Sure (what school doesn't have some ridiculously easy classes). Were there a lot of AFAM majors on the basketball team? Sure. Were the players steered towards AFAM classes? I don't know, and it seems like you don't know either - but even if I grant you that they were steered to those classes... can it be proven that they received grades that non-athlete students wouldn't have received for the same amount of work? I know that hasn't been proven, and I don't think it will be able to be proven, which is why I have to disagree with your suspicion that they will hit UNC basketball.

 

[tarheel0910]

But McCants had some sort of evidence for his side; namely, his transcript.

I'm not sure why you consider his transcript evidence. It just shows the grades that he got. You can't infer that he got those grades due to something shady. If some of the other members of the team had better grades than McCants, would that be enough proof to you that McCants was wrong?

 

[DevilBlue]

Who is "Lance Thomas"

Exactly. As you see I have said that without hard facts to what was said or those people sitting down with the NCAA I don't think much comes from previous statements. It would seem that you agree? Did Lance Thomas get some loan he would never have gotten without being a basketball player....no clue. Was there a lot of things that made it seem like a possible violation that needed to be looked into....yes. Is it a violation to get a large loan?....No. So with no ability to make Lance Thomas talk to the NCAA they couldn't do anything. To say the NCAA should have hammered Duke for that would be like saying, "they have nothing on UNC, but it might have happened HAMMER"

 

[Archer2]

I have a friend who has been teaching in the Sociology department at dook for many years. She has taught a ton of football and basketball players during their tenure. She said quite a few were illiterate, for all practical purposes. She also states that she doubts most could have maintained eligibility in any other major and that not 10% of them could have been admitted were they not athletes in a major sport.

Not going to provide her name or the names of some of the examples she gave, for obvious reasons. So take it for what it's worth. Just sayin' Sociology is dook's AFAM studies equivalent.

 

[DevilBlue]

I also don't think that "steering" kids to those classes is necessarily a violation is it? Steering kids to the class, and then having the teacher give them an undeserved grade is a violation, but merely suggesting they take easier classes can't possibly be a violation, right? I mean, if an athlete is in danger of becoming academically ineligible, and a coach looks at his class load and he's taking a bunch of advanced calculus, organic chemistry, and theoretical physics classes - I think a proper piece of advice would be, you might wanna drop one or two of those classes and take an elective.

No. Steering kids towards an easy class is not an issue so long as they maintain a pace to complete a degree. So if they take Math and Science you can steer the other classes to easier work classes. Now the issue lies in the "paper classes" If it can be shown UNC basketball put students in classes that they knew required no work, or preferential treatment for athletes in the class over normal students then its a big problem. It would be the same as a professor giving a student an A in Geometry because the coach of a sport came and convinced him. He or she didn't earn the grade. How easy a grade is to earn is not an issue.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Then why did the NCAA specifically mention men's basketball as a program that benefited from this? I don't think they would have if they didn't think men's basketball was involved, no?

Because, as you pointed out, several UNC bball players took AFAM classes and/or were AFAM majors. So they benefited from the fact that the classes were easy. So that's why they mentioned men's basketball.

Now, back to my point and question. Where is the "cheating" that supposedly went on, and how is it going to be proven to the point that they can administer sanctions for impermissible benefits?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

No. Steering kids towards an easy class is not an issue so long as they maintain a pace to complete a degree. So if they take Math and Science you can steer the other classes to easier work classes. Now the issue lies in the "paper classes" If it can be shown UNC basketball put students in classes that they knew required no work, or preferential treatment for athletes in the class over normal students then its a big problem. It would be the same as a professor giving a student an A in Geometry because the coach of a sport came and convinced him. He or she didn't earn the grade. How easy a grade is to earn is not an issue.

Exactly. I agree with this. So the question remains, can they prove that preferential treatment was given to athletes over normal students? Nothing that I've seen, inside or outside of this thread, has shown me that can be proven.

 

[trig81]

^ There also is NO evidence of a grade being given in the suspect classes without work being done.

 

[trig81]

^Except for the "often plagarized or submitted from another course " part (which I've never seen before), this was the issue for ALL students involved..A lecture course changed to independent study that required only a paper, then was graded by Crowder.

 

[tarheel0910]

Wainstein indicated that primarily athletes were allowed to take the lecture classes as paper classes, he referred to them as bifurcated classes, which required no attendance on the athletes part, while regular students took the courses as lecture courses and had multiple assignments. Their only requirement was to submit a paper, often plagarized or submitted from another course. This is also in the UNC-commissioned Wainstein report. This paper was graded by a secretary in the department and was often not thoroughly read. I believe that was Wainstein's main problem with many of the athletes' documented enrollment in these classes.

That's the first I've heard about the "bifurcated" classes. Where is that in the report? I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just like to read that section myself. As far as who grades the papers, that's not in the jurisdiction of the NCAA. They can't require a certain person to grade papers.

 

[DevilBlue]

Exactly. I agree with this. So the question remains, can they prove that preferential treatment was given to athletes over normal students? Nothing that I've seen, inside or outside of this thread, has shown me that can be proven.

It would be very hard to prove I would assume without people testifying to the fact. Now where I understand the questions come from is emails between staff about other staff saying as much. I know there were a lot of emails sent but I couldn't verify anything in those other than rumor or pictures online but that's obviously only so reliable whereas the hard copy could be different.

 

[DevilBlue]

That's the first I've heard about the "bifurcated" classes. Where is that in the report? I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just like to read that section myself. As far as who grades the papers, that's not in the jurisdiction of the NCAA. They can't require a certain person to grade papers.

Online seen info about these classes online so as I stated earlier I can't put much stock in that. Obviously hard copies may exist with the NCAA. As for Crowder grading...there can be issues with that, if the NCAA could prove she was giving higher grades to athletes, a huge issue could arise. If that can be proven...I have no clue.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Wainstein indicated that primarily athletes were allowed to take the lecture classes as paper classes, he referred to them as bifurcated classes, which required no attendance on the athletes part, while regular students took the courses as lecture courses and had multiple assignments. Their only requirement was to submit a paper, often plagarized or submitted from another course. This is also in the UNC-commissioned Wainstein report. This paper was graded by a secretary in the department and was often not thoroughly read. I believe that was Wainstein's main problem with many of the athletes' documented enrollment in these classes.

Athletes generally have a slightly different set of rules for attendance than normal students, as their travel schedules routinely make them unavailable to be physically present in all of the lectures. If the athletes were then not required to do the work, then there is the possibility of some sort of wrongdoing. If the academic department was seemingly doing that generous grading of their own accord, then as far as I know, there's nothing the NCAA can do. If it was the athletic department that was ensuring that that the professor/secretary was being more lenient on athletes, that is when it would begin to come into the realm of the NCAA. However, as I stated above - I haven't seen a connection made that a member of the athletic department was coercing a member of the academic department to do that. And without that, I don't see how they can sanction.

 

[trig81]

DevilBlue- Grades were basically the same for all, non-athletes slightly higher if I recall correctly.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Let's get this back on topic...............................

 

[gary-7]

How can anyone say the mens basketball team wasn't involved, when UNCs own report said they were? There were bunches of enrollments in fishy classes under Dean, and under Roy, and under the rest... almost the entire 2005 team was AFAM majors... heck, a major UNC star straight up SAID that the entire team cheated, didn't he? The NCAA actually said that men's basketball was involved.

Well, well... a new troll account chimes in.
The NCAA did not say any such thing. Now go play in the traffic.

 

[gary-7]

I certainly have no inside info on what Capel tells people. I wouldn't doubt that its likely that Duke included has told teams that they think UNC will get hammered as a matter of opinion. I disagree with saying this as a fact to recruits because nobody knows what will happen, but at the same time I disagree with UNC telling people nothing will happen because they don't know. I do know for a fact that UNC and Roy are not a perfect squeaky clean program and have said things over the years, but once again nobody is perfect and things can be taken out of context in so many ways I'm sure many get changed to fit personal mindsets ie McCants... Did he get shuttled into easy classes or did he ask for them and then change facts to suit his purpose...who knows. Clearly I wouldn't take his word at face value due to issues that have arisen from his statements but I wouldn't ignore his entire statement either.

That's some weak sh**... your whole damned post. GMAFB with trying to equivocate or rationalize about Capel's lies, or trying to insinuate UNC does anything resembling that. And now you reveal your true lack of credibility by trying to rehabilitate McCants's crap. Just take that useless garbage back to your own site.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Thedude1, I do not have the ability or capability to bring out the Tombstone out of catacombs but there is someone who is always available so just some friendly advise I would not push my luck...

To late, he did

 

[r_u_worthy]

Man, I will be glad when this case is closed... Worst case of Ground Hogs Day ever in the history of BS NCAA investigations!

 

[HeelFan58]

Let's get this back on topic...............................

damn. what was the original topic?