Taking on Brother Dave in a game of words .....................................
Little piece of intel...
- Thread starter gary-7
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Step Down....She should have been fired already...Hell we fired Butch Davis for much less..
If coaches were out there lying to recruits it would burn them. Coaches present the opportunities their team, university, program, etc... present as a comparison to other programs without always directly downing another IMO. If coaches were out there actively being dishonest about others a recruit would eventually speak up about it. I think too many fans want to justify why kids don't come to their school. We do it. Duke does it. UK does it. All the big schools do it. People think it has to be shady. Sometimes it is money and sometimes it is negative recruiting. The scandal has had a direct impact but these kids aren't stupid. It isn't like they need a coach to let them know it is going on. I do not think many people actively trash other programs. I mean, when is the last time a player or recruit actively stated this happens? It is possible it has and I have not heard about it.
Sometimes we get players and sometimes we don't. I like they guys we have coming in a lot. We need some more 'elites' and we have missed on a bunch lately. It is perception for sure but when we sensationalize it it is sort of insulting to the kids and their families.
Sometimes we get players and sometimes we don't. I like they guys we have coming in a lot. We need some more 'elites' and we have missed on a bunch lately. It is perception for sure but when we sensationalize it it is sort of insulting to the kids and their families.
IF what I've heard is true, I'd have to concur. But I haven't been privy to the actual evidence so I'm going to withhold judgement until I am. I've always liked Coach Hatchell, just as I always liked Coach Davis. So I'm still waiting for this damn interminable investigation to end so we can move on, one way or the other.
Really dude, no need to get all pissy, no need for your panties to get in a wad! CLEARLY, if you do not appreciate what I said then you actually need to learn HOW TO SELL and the best way to do that is to listen to someone that knows how to sell. Now no matter how you chose to take what I said, it was actually offerred in the spirit of trying to help you and if you find yourself having to "wallow in the mud" as you claim then you actually need someone to help you figure out why.
And by the way, the only time David door knocks is when they are expecting me there at a pre-arranged time. I sit with them on a $40-80K investment in their home and not only do I totally love what I do, I totally believe in my products, my company, and my ability to bring extreme help to my clients. By the way, I sell Solar Energy systems for people's homes that want to reduce their electric bills by 50-100%. I deliver on my promises and don't have to lie about what our systems do.
By your comment about the shitty donuts, I can already see what kind of salesman you are, you think you know all you need to know, no need for you to learn your craft, just go out and lie as much as you have to and you will get paid because your getting paid is all that matters no matter what you have to do to get that sale. Seriously, unless you change your attitude you wouldn't last 5mins in a big boy sale, not if you have to lie/cheat/steal to get your sale or as you call it "wallow in the mud"!
Yeah and unfortunately I have heard much the same about the women's program, I expect them to get hammered pretty hard, don't know how much Sylvia her self was involved but have heard at least some on her staff knew what was going on and that isn't good. My understanding is that Roy nor anyone on his staff knew about the AFAM stuff but that Roy maybe thru his friend felt something may not be just right about so many players being in the AFAM classes and began advising his players that maybe a different major would be better for them. I do strongly believe for reason that had Roy known what actually was going on in the AFAM program that he would have reported it to the AD and chancellor and that UNC would have self reported this to the NCAA.
Roy, for all his faults, does not run a dirty program, he will walk away from dirt even if it means he has to lose a kid he wants really badly to a rival program. Roy is not nor has he ever been a win at all cost coach, nor was Dean. Dean taught Roy (and it was one of the things Roy actually learned and incorperated LOL) that you are only really winning when you win the right way, cheating is not winning even thou many do take home trophys for it, if you can not win the right way then you will never truely win. It was more important to Dean than anything and it is as important to Roy that they teach those kids that you may be able to cheat and win in a game but in life, you cheat and you lose in the end. Dean was a teacher even more than a coach, Roy is similar in that respect.
Look at John Wooden, great coach and wonderful teacher of the game but for all the amazing things he achieved, his legacy will forever be tarnished by having players that were bought and paid for by boosters...
I don't need your out of touch reality from your 1950's door knocking sells meetings.
I'd have to give THAT response a big WOW...and the "sells meetings" ending...a thing of beauty and AMAZING!
Curious David, some folks don't even recall the "kind benefactor" that roamed the UCLA program for years...
I'd have to give THAT response a big WOW...and the "sells meetings" ending...a thing of beauty and AMAZING!
Curious David, some folks don't even recall the "kind benefactor" that roamed the UCLA program for years...
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Oh, jeez; Give me a break. Are you still moaning on as if you know me? Does it make you feel better? Make you more convincing to your fellow posters who call you, "Dave"?
I was merely bringing context to this thread in my OP and most of y'all ran off the deep end with it. You did not like the message and what it possibly implied, so you attacked me personally and all of a sudden you know how I operate in the real world because (back to the thread) - Heaven for Bid - one of our beloved UNC coaches have ever wallowed in the mud before. GASP!!. Message Board For The Win.
Consequently, I have now successfully/unsuccessfully devolved twice in one week in this basketball forum. This isn't me. It isn't who I am. There won't be a third time. I'm done with this side of the site and all it's Land of Milk and Honey. I'll keep my postings to the Football and Out of the Blue forums where contrary postings/opinions are either debated in the right way or simply ignored. Both options are better than this. There's nothing healthy about this.
If these coaches are using the NCAA mess as negative recruiting it seems logical that the same coaches would point out to the OADs that JMM was at UNC for three years. I would guess the same thing will happen with Jackson if he stays till his junior year as well.
Taking on Brother Dave in a game of words .....................................
The sad part Mikey, if there is a topic I can talk more about than UNC basketball it is selling!
Roy and Fedora have both said that they have been told by recruits that other coaches have been trashing the basketball and football teams because of the NCAA investigation.
#SamGilbertI don't need your out of touch reality from your 1950's door knocking sells meetings.
I'd have to give THAT response a big WOW...and the "sells meetings" ending...a thing of beauty and AMAZING!
Curious David, some folks don't even recall the "kind benefactor" that roamed the UCLA program for years...
What I posted was fact. Roy does NOT wallow in the mud. That is well known in coaching and HS/AAU circles and has been for years. Maybe the real question is why is that simple fact so hard for you to accept?
Which coaches? If it goes on as much as some think it does it would get out. Specifics would get out and be talked about. It is like the best kept secret in the history of sports. I know it goes on to some degree. I just think people exaggerate it to make themselves feel better, just like with players getting paid.
I don't think they have given out specific names. They seem to be too classy for that. I'm just telling you what has come out of their own mouth. I don't think it happens all the time though. If I had to guess I would bet it's mostly assistant coaches who do it. The head coach wants to be able to put the blame somewhere else.
It's pretty common in these high-pressure days but there's a tight-lipped ethos about airing it publicly for whatever reason. You hear about it most at clinics, camps and AAU games when coaches talk off the record. Often Assistants do the actual dirty work, but not always. And no, cory, it is not exaggerated.
Trolls always get what they ask for ................................................... just sayin
That just doesn't seem reasonable to me. If something is prevalent it always gets out. I think they either name names or it just seems like it could be kind of BS as much as it could be the truth, though it is probably in the middle. What is negative recruiting to one may just be that subtle comparison to someone else. If you relied too heavily on it there is no way it wouldn't eventually burn you with parents and certain recruits.
I would say you would get varying degree of what is negative recruiting.
Example...If a player asked a coach about if that coach thought UNC would get penalized. That coach might say "well they might get a year or two no post season, they might not get punished until after you leave" Coach never said they will get hammered but also left the recruit with the impression that UNC will be penalized.
Same use to happen to Duke with big men.
When coaches ask what other schools bigs were looking at and Duke comes up..."Oh Duke...Good School....Ks a great coach. Runs a bit more of a guard oriented offense that I like with Bigs setting up the guards, but good school" Its not slamming Duke but is negative.
Of course all these situations could be worse, and I assume there are schools and coaches that do slam other programs or coaches, but I agree with you I think most places do exactly what I just said and some times people take it as more.
I mentioned Gilbert and his shenanigans a couple of years ago when we were discussing all time greats in the college coaching ranks. Several here didn't like what I said about the relationship between UCLA and Gilbert. Just Google "the guilded saints of UCLA and Sam Gilbert" and you may view Wooden in a different light.
Roy has been more public recently than you would normally hear over this issue. There is an unwritten rule about coaches naming names, but he's coming damn close. That in itself should tell you something.
Again, just know that it is in no size shape or form "BS", and no, the truth here is nowhere near "the middle".
There is a BIG difference in pointing out something that's true about another program's player usage and tendencies, and flat -out bare-faced lying about a phantom impending probation... and that is what they are doing, including Capel.
You're right, recruiting is a sales job. If I'm selling a product, I'm more apt to talk it up instead of downgrading the competition.
Now we're getting somewhere Gary. Reading through this thread his name kept popping in my head, mainly because he has nothing to lose and all to gain (sullied reputation, chance to impress for when the K-rat retires)
Also, it stands to reason that head coaches wouldn't get down into the dirty underside of negative recruiting, rather leaving it up to their minions. I'd guess Calimari's comment to Bam about MooU was more bombastic than underhanded.
What we're talking about here is the spreading of baseless rumours ("UNC... they're in trouble") and urban myths ("Roy only plays upperclassmen") which feed into the swirl of negative sentiment about the program for an impressionable 16-17yr old kid.
Now, based on some of your other intel over the last 12 months I'm guessing it's not just assistant coaches getting in on the act.
Could it be that some programs use third party negative recruiting? Enlisting the help of those in the AAU circuits to spread the crap as far and as wide as possible?
Lastly, I see no coincidence that AFAM has managed to drag on much longer than expected, covering a key recruiting cycle for in-state North Carolina players. At a time when, in two consecutive classes, the top player in the State chose another school?
First you were not attacked personally, thou by your reaction it is clear I hit a very sensitive nerve in you. And the more you talked the worse you showed yourself and proved that what ever you may be, a real salesman you are not. The only thing you have stated in this thread that made any sense is that recruiting is selling. But to come back and suggest that you have to "wallow in the mud" is the exact thing that gives so many people such a negative notion of what a salesman is. Go dive in to Zig Ziegler and learn something about the profession before you go talking about something you have not learned.
FACT is you brought no context to this thread, you stated something as fact that is not true, you do not have to wallow in the mud to sell or recruit, many do, some get caught, not all "wallow in the mud".
Absolutely --- both directly and indirectly. These guys doing this junk are coaches (obviously), and they know how the grapevine works --- get that narrative started and it'll take on a life of its own. Hell, remember Roy remarking a while back how he had to reach out to UNC alums in the AAU world to reassure them? Make no mistake, Roy knows damn well what's being said out there --- I'm pretty sure the Felton clan got an ear full from the detractors, and you know that got back to Chapel Hill.
And yes, the coaches (both head and assistants) that play the handlers/"mentors" racket definitely plant their garbage with them --- and Oz I can tell you I have personally heard anti-Carolina junk at AAU tourneys, and the terminology is suspiciously consistent, i.e., that UNC is gonna get "hammered". That is no accident.
How can anyone say the mens basketball team wasn't involved, when UNCs own report said they were? There were bunches of enrollments in fishy classes under Dean, and under Roy, and under the rest... almost the entire 2005 team was AFAM majors... heck, a major UNC star straight up SAID that the entire team cheated, didn't he? The NCAA actually said that men's basketball was involved.
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Well, I guess if McCants "straight up SAID" something, then it must be true, huh? Guess you missed the part where his teammates straight up DENIED what he said.
And by the way, MCants NEVER talked to the NCAA. Refused to, in fact. Love it when the loons try to use McCants as the poster boy for credibility.
And by the way, MCants NEVER talked to the NCAA. Refused to, in fact. Love it when the loons try to use McCants as the poster boy for credibility.
Can you provide a reference where the NCAA said that men's basketball was involved, or a reference that shows that "almost the entire 2005 team was AFAM majors"?
Oh no, don't get me wrong, McCants is a looney bin. But he provided his transcripts, and they showed he went from a failing student to a straight A student overnight. I suppose he could have been lying about everyone else, but his own involvement seems... well, how else would that have happened, and why would he lie if it was really just hard work? And it is possible that he was the only one cheating...? But I don't think listening to a guy who was admitting he cheated, showed his own transcripts that seem to support it, and who then went on to say others were cheating (especially when you look at the degrees they got, as mentioned below) qualifies someone for a "loon." It seems rather reasonable.
The NCAA directly mentioned the men's basketball team, didn't they? From ESPN...
http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=13012146
That allowed counselors to use the irregular courses to help keep at-risk athletes eligible, "particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball"...
The quote is directly from the NCAA.
And just look at the media guide for the basketball team re: degrees. Or the report that UNC itself wanted. Seven guys from 2005 were AFAM majors. From Fox Sports...
http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...al-wainstein-report-investigation-ncaa-102214
For example, 10 of the 15 members of Roy Williams’ 2005 national title team were AFAM majors.
Knowing that it was the majority of the meaningful players (i.e. not Blue Steel) who were AFAM majors... well, I don't know what else to say about that...?
I just think that anyone who thinks that basketball wasn't involved is sort of ignoring UNC's own findings. Why would UNC lie about UNC? This isn't my opinion or my statements... I'm just copy and pasting from UNC findings, and stuff from UNC players.
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Thedude1, I do not have the ability or capability to bring out the Tombstone out of catacombs but there is someone who is always available so just some friendly advise I would not push my luck...
McCants actually said school was difficult while he was there. Yes, he changed his story later. It seems reasonable to think he was being honest then when it would have benefited him to not actually state what he said. I get you will believe what you want though. It also seems like you said he was a 'loon' then said he wasn't. I mean, he is. Using McCants or Willingham are losing propositions. There are other ways to argue against UNC but using those two are poor arguments.
Every sport was mentioned in the broad sense. No doubt. I think when people say basketball they mean directly called out as other sports were. I can't answer for them though so I don't know. As for the majors, I don't really give a crap what they majored in. Some of the AFAM classes were problems but many of them were not as well. We'll see. I think the NCAA will try their hardest to do something but also think they know they are legally in a tough position if UNC wanted to fight it. Of course, UNC is probably too weak to do that if past actions are any indications.
What McCants' transcripts show is that he did well in some classes and failed others, like any other student. Were the AFAM classes a easy A or B? No doubt. But they were for everyone, athlete or not. It's pretty well known he hated the academic side...but he wasn't stupid, just lazy. So that's on him, And what student would not take, or even be advised to take, a easy class or two to boost their GPA when needed? That's why all the frat boys got involved in AFAM.
The case you're trying to make is that taking AFAM classes or majoring in AFAM is proof positive that someone was cheating, and knew they were cheating. That's where we'll disagree. How would a student know a class provided and certified by the university was bogus? Easy, like others, yes. Bogus, no. And another point that is always ignored is that no investigation has found evidence of a grade being given unless work was done, meaning even in these "paper classes", work was done. Now granted, a passing grade was guaranteed, but how is that different from a class that by merely showing up the student gets passed through? These types of classes exist on every campus.
And yes, the records show that a large number of the 2005 team were AFAM majors. A little research will show that Sociology was the major of choice for Duke players, Parks & Rec for State, and so forth and so on.
You ask why would McCants lie? Because he's trying to get PAID. He's bitter because he more or less ran himself out of the NBA (although he's never admit it) and thinks the world owes him.
And my "loons" comment was directed at the conspiracy theory nut jobs that try to make McCants credible.
The case you're trying to make is that taking AFAM classes or majoring in AFAM is proof positive that someone was cheating, and knew they were cheating. That's where we'll disagree. How would a student know a class provided and certified by the university was bogus? Easy, like others, yes. Bogus, no. And another point that is always ignored is that no investigation has found evidence of a grade being given unless work was done, meaning even in these "paper classes", work was done. Now granted, a passing grade was guaranteed, but how is that different from a class that by merely showing up the student gets passed through? These types of classes exist on every campus.
And yes, the records show that a large number of the 2005 team were AFAM majors. A little research will show that Sociology was the major of choice for Duke players, Parks & Rec for State, and so forth and so on.
You ask why would McCants lie? Because he's trying to get PAID. He's bitter because he more or less ran himself out of the NBA (although he's never admit it) and thinks the world owes him.
And my "loons" comment was directed at the conspiracy theory nut jobs that try to make McCants credible.
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I certainly have no inside info on what Capel tells people. I wouldn't doubt that its likely that Duke included has told teams that they think UNC will get hammered as a matter of opinion. I disagree with saying this as a fact to recruits because nobody knows what will happen, but at the same time I disagree with UNC telling people nothing will happen because they don't know. I do know for a fact that UNC and Roy are not a perfect squeaky clean program and have said things over the years, but once again nobody is perfect and things can be taken out of context in so many ways I'm sure many get changed to fit personal mindsets ie McCants... Did he get shuttled into easy classes or did he ask for them and then change facts to suit his purpose...who knows. Clearly I wouldn't take his word at face value due to issues that have arisen from his statements but I wouldn't ignore his entire statement either.
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