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National Anthem Question

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I never said the Holocaust was a fantasy.
Well you said "scenarios," plural, so naturally I thought you were including the Holocaust since the gunman was the only other scenario I presented to you.

The Holocaust was allowed and created because people back then thought like you think now- it's okay to kill some people in certain situations, based on certain criteria.
I don't think it's "okay to kill" some people, just that it's the least undesirable choice in plenty of scenarios. Here's another one for you.

You, 500 orphans, and a terrorist are passengers on a Trans-Atlantic flight. The terrorist has a working bomb and you have a loaded gun. He's about to press the detonator. Do you shoot him?
 
You, 500 orphans, and a terrorist are passengers on a Trans-Atlantic flight. The terrorist has a working bomb and you have a loaded gun. He's about to press the detonator. Do you shoot him?
Well, if they're orphans then it doesn't really matter does it? Everyone knows that no one cares about orphans.
 
I keep seeing that "ignored member" is poasting in this thread. Is it strum?

Otherwise you're a total cretin or a sanctimonious windbag,...
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Yep, it's definitely strum.

Just stop RH. He's a complete phony and your life is better off if you quit trying to make sense of his nonsense.

Strum, I admire your ideals and I wish the world worked the way you'd like to believe it can...but it just doesn't.

I will tell you this and then I will leave this mess...unless I'm dragged back in.

I hope, for your sake and the sake of those you love, that you never find yourself in a situation where it comes down to kill or be killed. Not because I fear for your safety but because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God instilled in us all two instincts that we cannot overcome; the ingrained need to worship Him (however that may manifest itself), and the overwhelming basic instinct of self-survival.

You may honestly believe what you write when you say you would let someone kill you before you take another life, but I am telling you it's next to impossible to do. It is simply not in us to allow ourselves to be slaughtered when there is even the hint of a possibility of survival. God did not create us in His image to be sheep and I think your actions when faced with life or death would destroy your mind's image of who you are and what you are capable of.

I have seen men offer themselves as sacrifice to ensure the safety of others, but that is a far different thing than simply allowing themselves to be killed for no other reason. We will willingly die for our loved ones. We will die for ideals IF we believe our death will somehow lend itself to a greater good. But every cell in our bodies scream in defiance when faced with certain death unless we defend ourselves. It is something we cannot overcome because it is inherent.

Warriors are trained to rely on muscle memory map and INSTINCT because they will keep you alive. Muscle memory map allows you to do your job when your brain is too overwhelmed to issue commands consciously. Instinct prevails when faced with situations we are not prepared to deal with. Instinct comes directly from the Creator. Yes, God is love. But as I said before, the two most basic loves we have...the two God built into every fiber of our being, are to love Him and love our own life. You cannot escape either.

I have done things that keep me up at night...but not because I feel guilt. I did what I had to do to protect those around me and to protect myself and I find no shame or remorse in that. I teach young men how to do those same things every day and I couldn't do that if I felt it were wrong or unnecessary. What I struggle with are the intense anxiety and emotions those situations evoked. Sometimes what ever is left of those feelings are so strong I find myself hurled back there and I have to remind myself that I'm OK...that it's over.

War is indeed straight out of hell. But just because we don't like it doesn't make it any less real. Neither does the fact that in a perfect world it wouldn't exist. It is not a perfect world and we need walls to protect us from those that wish us harm. I have seen them and I know what they are capable of. Every day I thank God there are men that are willing to be that wall between us. It is their willingness to sacrifice themselves that allows you to sit on high in all your moral superiority and judge them.

That's one of the best poasts I've ever read on any message board. And I thank you for your service @heelbent
 
Well, if they're orphans then it doesn't really matter does it? Everyone knows that no one cares about orphans.
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I don't think it's "okay to kill" some people, just that it's the least undesirable choice in plenty of scenarios.
Yes you do! You just contradicted yourself and proved that you do believe it is okay to kill some people. Maybe, one day, human beings will kill all the evil people and make killing people in the future unacceptable. I'm sure it's just around the corner.
 
I keep seeing that "ignored member" is poasting in this thread. Is it strum?



Yep, it's definitely strum.

Just stop RH. He's a complete phony and your life is better off if you quit trying to make sense of his nonsense.



That's one of the best poasts I've ever read on any message board. And I thank you for your service @heelbent
Hey, look! Dick is pretending to ignore me again. He never disappoints.
 
Okay, sure, it's okay to kill some people.

Now what about those orphans?
What about them? I'm sure a few of those orphans would have grown-up to be a murderer or a thief, or some other unsavory member of society. One of them may have been the new Hitler. So, I'm preventing a future Holocaust by letting the terrorist take them out. See how your justification works?

It's okay to kill some people... there's your standard. If you have that as a viable option, then there's nothing I can say or do to change your mind.

I don't condone executions and I don't condone abortions. I'm sure you mean well, but I'm getting tired of these sick scenarios you keep coming up with.
 
I'm getting tired of these sick scenarios you keep coming up with.
Of course you are. Your choices are becoming more and more unpalatable. Now your mom and 500 orphans are dead because of you.

Vladimir Putin is standing with his thumb over the fingerprint ID pad to launch a nuclear attack on the North America and Europe. You are standing behind him with a loaded gun and are the last thing between him and the annihilation of 1.3 billion people. Do you pull the trigger?
 
So you can't give me what you think is a viable alternative? I'm open to listening if you will tell me one. The only restriction I would put on your answer is that some theory based on us changing our way of thinking in the future doesn't qualify as a solution. I'm talking about an event in the past. What we evolve into doesn't help with past events.
By the way, I'm open to anyone giving me a viable alternative as to how the issues of the revolutionary war, civil war, WWI and WWII could have been solved without killing anyone. Strum and chick are not the only two that can answer.
 
Now your mom and 500 orphans are dead because of you.
No... that's not true. They're dead because someone, much like you, decided that it is okay to kill SOME people. It's merely a matter of degree and personal choice as to who gets killed. I didn't kill anyone... in ANY of your scenarios. You, on the other hand, have killed someone in each scenario.
 
No... that's not true. They're dead because someone, much like you, decided that it is okay to kill SOME people. It's merely a matter of degree and personal choice as to who gets killed. I didn't kill anyone... in ANY of your scenarios. You, on the other hand, have killed someone in each scenario.
You got me. I'm a horrible person and I like killing people.

Now what about Putin?
 
Solution to all wars: Wrestlemania. One on one, punch em ups between leaders of the conflicting nations. For WWI and WWII, it's tag teams. FDR, Stalin and Churchill vs. Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito in a NO HOLDS BARRED CAGE MATCH, THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY
 
For many of you guys who claim to be such devoted followers of Jesus Christ, you sure don't reflect his attitudes and actions very much. Are you just Jesus on Sundays? Stop being afraid of evil, or Hell, and just do what Jesus did.

I don't do what Jesus did (as in turn the other cheek rather than defend myself) because I don't want to end up how Jesus did (left to rot on a cross).

If I kill that man, it is the same as killing my mother, or even myself. If that man kills my mother, she is freed from this world and is eternal. But, my soul is clean.

I'd hate to be your mother if you'd hang her out to dry like that. This has to be the most selfish comment I've ever heard. You wouldn't save her life because you want your soul to be clean.
 
Strum and i both agree there are no moral absolutes. That right and wrong are all relative to each persons experiences and environment. But heres where he's contradicting himself. It seems most Anyone can justify killing someone. Yet strum claims he cant? In effect hes claiming a "moral absolute". Hes claiming any killing is murder no matter the scenario. U cant claim theres no moral absolutes then proceed to claim a moral absolute.
 
Solution to all wars: Wrestlemania. One on one, punch em ups between leaders of the conflicting nations. For WWI and WWII, it's tag teams. FDR, Stalin and Churchill vs. Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito in a NO HOLDS BARRED CAGE MATCH, THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY
I finally got someone to answer my question! Since you are the first (and probably only) person to answer, you get a gold star for today.

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Strum and i both agree there are no moral absolutes. That right and wrong are all relative to each persons experiences and environment. But heres where he's contradicting himself. It seems most Anyone can justify killing someone. Yet strum claims he cant? In effect hes claiming a "moral absolute". Hes claiming any killing is murder no matter the scenario. U cant claim theres no moral absolutes then proceed to claim a moral absolute.
You're right. I can conceive of a situation where I'd act-out of primal instinct and kill someone. But, given these preconceived "what if's", then, no. My objective is to try my best to deny myself the ability to justify murdering ANYONE. And, the realization that a stranger is as sacred and has the same value as my own mother. That is the message I get from a Christ consciousness.
 
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You're right. I can conceive of a situation where I'd act-out of primal instinct and kill someone. But, given these preconceived "what if's", then, no. My objective is to try my best to deny myself the ability to justify murdering ANYONE. And, the realization that a stranger is as sacred and has the same value as my own mother. That is the message I get from a Christ consciousness.

Fair enough
 
By the way, I'm open to anyone giving me a viable alternative as to how the issues of the revolutionary war, civil war, WWI and WWII could have been solved without killing anyone. Strum and chick are not the only two that can answer.
Solution to all wars: Wrestlemania. One on one, punch em ups between leaders of the conflicting nations. For WWI and WWII, it's tag teams. FDR, Stalin and Churchill vs. Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito in a NO HOLDS BARRED CAGE MATCH, THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY
or you could go another route...

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Make sure you tell everyone that in Sunday School next Sunday.

I would gladly tell them that. I think it's counterproductive and borderline abuse to teach kids to not defend themselves because of some pie-in-the-sky ideals that don't work in the real world.

And stop sidestepping RH's scenarios. It's making you look even more foolish than normal. Answer the questions.
 
I don't do what Jesus did (as in turn the other cheek rather than defend myself) because I don't want to end up how Jesus did (left to rot on a cross).



I'd hate to be your mother if you'd hang her out to dry like that. This has to be the most selfish comment I've ever heard. You wouldn't save her life because you want your soul to be clean.

I see it as the ultimate display of love for someone. You would relieve them of this living hell we have here now by allowing them to die. In fact, I have already told my children that if we were EVER to get paid back in this country for all the sh*t we do around the world that pisses other countries off and that for whatever reason we are faced with a terrorist beheading us or putting us in a firing squad, whatever it is, that I would opt for them to be killed over me so they would not have to live in this hell any longer and would be free and they both said that is true love of a mother. I'd much rather suffer being alive here with this insanity and hatred than ever allow my children to live here without me when I could not longer protect them.
 
This thread just gets nuttier and nuttier. Strum, you are arguing with people who have hearts unlike ours. They have no problem killing others and will never understand the things they supposedly believe in the bible, so stop wasting time with it.

We will all just agree to disagree once again.

Like I quoted last night... "I've seen so much worth dying for, so little worth killing over..." I am sure there is something worth killing over but I have yet to see it. I'm not afraid of death. I have personally witnessed people at the end of their lives when I worked in the hospital. I watched them reach out to the other side and the peace on their face said it all....they are met with love and beauty and are SO ready to go, so I have no fear of it.
 
I'm sure you would. Jesus would be glad to know this religion is in His name. He begs people to do one thing, and they manage to find one way after another to justify doing the exact opposite. Praise the Lord.

I've discussed my religious beliefs on here in the past. I do believe in a Supreme Being, but I am in no way signed up to turn the other cheek like some sort of moron when I'm (or someone I care about is) being harmed.
 
I see it as the ultimate display of love for someone. You would relieve them of this living hell we have here now by allowing them to die. In fact, I have already told my children that if we were EVER to get paid back in this country for all the sh*t we do around the world that pisses other countries off and that for whatever reason we are faced with a terrorist beheading us or putting us in a firing squad, whatever it is, that I would opt for them to be killed over me so they would not have to live in this hell any longer and would be free and they both said that is true love of a mother. I'd much rather suffer being alive here with this insanity and hatred than ever allow my children to live here without me when I could not longer protect them.

Really? I've seen mothers die defending their children. Never once saw one offer them up in lieu of themselves. Never once heard one say "I'm glad they're gone and I'm still alive."
You must be a truly unique woman.

Uh huh.
 
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