National Anthem Question
- Thread starter WhatTheHeel?
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... even if it meant putting an end to...
So in summary, you'd sit idly by while the Holocaust was taking place, even though you potentially had the power to end it, all so you could declare your own innocence.
I can't think of a better example to demonstrate the love of self that pervades your poasting history here.
Well it's in the line of scripture of Matthew 25:40(I think that's it) that states whatever you do to the least of three you do to me (God/Jesus). Since God is always with us and in 1 Corinthians 3:16 that states God is always with us and dwells within us.
I believe he said he wouldn't slaughter people, he never said he'd sit by and allow others to do it if he had the ability to stop it.
I was going to point out this exact same thing after reading his response. I was also going to throw in an example (Boko Haram) from today. But instead of all that, I've decided to do what he does and just troll him back.
Killing people is not my thing. Sorry if you disagree. I don't have the power to end it. Do you think it's ended? Last time I checked, wars go on and on and on and genocide goes on and on and on. Killing people in order to get people to stop killing each other seems to really be working well. Keep up the good work.
Dang... this thread!
So what'dya think of this one?
So what'dya think of this one?
Nope: "If I had been alive at that time, I would not have taken the life of a single person."
It's not my thing either. I don't disagree. And of course you don't have the power, WWII ended 70 years ago.
Who do you love besides yourself, strum? A sibling? Your mother? Let's say a gunman holds a pistol to your mother's head. You have a loaded gun. The gunman tells you that he's going to count down from 10, and either you shoot him or he shoots your mother when he reaches 0. What do you do?
I would have been a medic, I suppose. I would have helped roll bandages and been a conscientious objector, whatever. But, I'm not going to engage in taking other peoples' lives. That's exactly what Nazis were doing. I don't see it as you do, that's all. You're picking sides and teams, as if they're somehow different, or one is better or worse.
Would you have killed the Sioux at Wounded Knee? Why not? They were an abomination and a blight on our nation's need for land.
That's more of self-defense. I'd ask them to shoot me, I suppose.
You can sure come up with some really sick scenarios just to get me to consent to killing someone. Bravo! And, then you try to veil it in some attempt to claim that I love myself? I love myself probably as much as you love yourself. DO I know my limits if the circumstances arose? No... nor do you. But, my convictions to not murder people are pretty strong. If that is self-love, so be it.
posted this in the Olympics thread, but seems more appropriate here...
This is interesting. I love the lengths you're willing to go to to try and get me to kill someone. And, then, if I refuse to kill another person, you call me selfish! You're a real prize. I've learned a lot about you in this thread.
I've said this over and over. If I kill that man, it is the same as killing my mother, or even myself. If that man kills my mother, she is freed from this world and is eternal. But, my soul is clean. I did not murder. Am I going to be crushed by the loss? Of course. But, you're not going to get me to advocate killing someone because they killed. If a man murdered my mother, I would not want the state to execute him. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be. I'm not motivated by revenge like that.
Now, I will offer a caveat. If this happened in an unexpected situation, where someone breaks into my home and tries to kill my mother and I am reacting with my animal instincts, I will try to protect her.
That I'm better at trolling than you? You're damn right I am.
I respect. I stand. I take any headgear off. I think about what it means. I feel grateful. I think I usually put my hand over my heart but that is not all that important for me personally.
@strummingram
I dont consider paying respect to be "worshipping the state". Holy crap talk about hyperbole! I consider it .....well paying respect to the ideals and concepts set forth in the constitution and the people who died to enable us to live by them. I agree with u on a lot of stuff others dont but you've lost me on this one.
I dont consider paying respect to be "worshipping the state". Holy crap talk about hyperbole! I consider it .....well paying respect to the ideals and concepts set forth in the constitution and the people who died to enable us to live by them. I agree with u on a lot of stuff others dont but you've lost me on this one.
We all pay our respects in our own way.
I'll try to leave more bread crumbs in the future!
Given the scenario you gave Strum, ask yourselves the same thing. If someone had a gun to your mother, wife or child's head and there was not a way to kill them yourself, because typically in that situation you do NOT have the upper hand and are at the mercy of the aggressor. You all know you would tell the gunman to just shoot you or both of you.
Death is true freedom and if I were in that situation, I'd tell them to just kill us both because what comes after that is beauty and peace, here..... who would want to live in that kind of fear? I wouldn't.
If you fear death, then I can see why you react the way you guys do. I, however, do not fear it. I fear living sometimes LOL
Death is true freedom and if I were in that situation, I'd tell them to just kill us both because what comes after that is beauty and peace, here..... who would want to live in that kind of fear? I wouldn't.
If you fear death, then I can see why you react the way you guys do. I, however, do not fear it. I fear living sometimes LOL
Strum, I admire your ideals and I wish the world worked the way you'd like to believe it can...but it just doesn't.
I will tell you this and then I will leave this mess...unless I'm dragged back in.
I hope, for your sake and the sake of those you love, that you never find yourself in a situation where it comes down to kill or be killed. Not because I fear for your safety but because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God instilled in us all two instincts that we cannot overcome; the ingrained need to worship Him (however that may manifest itself), and the overwhelming basic instinct of self-survival.
You may honestly believe what you write when you say you would let someone kill you before you take another life, but I am telling you it's next to impossible to do. It is simply not in us to allow ourselves to be slaughtered when there is even the hint of a possibility of survival. God did not create us in His image to be sheep and I think your actions when faced with life or death would destroy your mind's image of who you are and what you are capable of.
I have seen men offer themselves as sacrifice to ensure the safety of others, but that is a far different thing than simply allowing themselves to be killed for no other reason. We will willingly die for our loved ones. We will die for ideals IF we believe our death will somehow lend itself to a greater good. But every cell in our bodies scream in defiance when faced with certain death unless we defend ourselves. It is something we cannot overcome because it is inherent.
Warriors are trained to rely on muscle memory map and INSTINCT because they will keep you alive. Muscle memory map allows you to do your job when your brain is too overwhelmed to issue commands consciously. Instinct prevails when faced with situations we are not prepared to deal with. Instinct comes directly from the Creator. Yes, God is love. But as I said before, the two most basic loves we have...the two God built into every fiber of our being, are to love Him and love our own life. You cannot escape either.
I have done things that keep me up at night...but not because I feel guilt. I did what I had to do to protect those around me and to protect myself and I find no shame or remorse in that. I teach young men how to do those same things every day and I couldn't do that if I felt it were wrong or unnecessary. What I struggle with are the intense anxiety and emotions those situations evoked. Sometimes what ever is left of those feelings are so strong I find myself hurled back there and I have to remind myself that I'm OK...that it's over.
War is indeed straight out of hell. But just because we don't like it doesn't make it any less real. Neither does the fact that in a perfect world it wouldn't exist. It is not a perfect world and we need walls to protect us from those that wish us harm. I have seen them and I know what they are capable of. Every day I thank God there are men that are willing to be that wall between us. It is their willingness to sacrifice themselves that allows you to sit on high in all your moral superiority and judge them.
I will tell you this and then I will leave this mess...unless I'm dragged back in.
I hope, for your sake and the sake of those you love, that you never find yourself in a situation where it comes down to kill or be killed. Not because I fear for your safety but because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God instilled in us all two instincts that we cannot overcome; the ingrained need to worship Him (however that may manifest itself), and the overwhelming basic instinct of self-survival.
You may honestly believe what you write when you say you would let someone kill you before you take another life, but I am telling you it's next to impossible to do. It is simply not in us to allow ourselves to be slaughtered when there is even the hint of a possibility of survival. God did not create us in His image to be sheep and I think your actions when faced with life or death would destroy your mind's image of who you are and what you are capable of.
I have seen men offer themselves as sacrifice to ensure the safety of others, but that is a far different thing than simply allowing themselves to be killed for no other reason. We will willingly die for our loved ones. We will die for ideals IF we believe our death will somehow lend itself to a greater good. But every cell in our bodies scream in defiance when faced with certain death unless we defend ourselves. It is something we cannot overcome because it is inherent.
Warriors are trained to rely on muscle memory map and INSTINCT because they will keep you alive. Muscle memory map allows you to do your job when your brain is too overwhelmed to issue commands consciously. Instinct prevails when faced with situations we are not prepared to deal with. Instinct comes directly from the Creator. Yes, God is love. But as I said before, the two most basic loves we have...the two God built into every fiber of our being, are to love Him and love our own life. You cannot escape either.
I have done things that keep me up at night...but not because I feel guilt. I did what I had to do to protect those around me and to protect myself and I find no shame or remorse in that. I teach young men how to do those same things every day and I couldn't do that if I felt it were wrong or unnecessary. What I struggle with are the intense anxiety and emotions those situations evoked. Sometimes what ever is left of those feelings are so strong I find myself hurled back there and I have to remind myself that I'm OK...that it's over.
War is indeed straight out of hell. But just because we don't like it doesn't make it any less real. Neither does the fact that in a perfect world it wouldn't exist. It is not a perfect world and we need walls to protect us from those that wish us harm. I have seen them and I know what they are capable of. Every day I thank God there are men that are willing to be that wall between us. It is their willingness to sacrifice themselves that allows you to sit on high in all your moral superiority and judge them.
Ok. Can you answer the question I asked strum? Can you give me a viable solution to those wars that results in no deaths?
Tell me, how would you have ended the Holocaust without killing anyone?
So would that have been your response to the Holocaust? "Millions of Jews are dying, but it's okay because now they're freed from this world and are eternal."
Your logic doesn't pass muster. You can't talk out of one side of your mouth about the sanctity of human life, while out of the other tacitly supporting the murder of millions of people. If you revere life and have a conscience, intervention is the only choice. Otherwise you're a total cretin or a sanctimonious windbag, and neither is a particularly good look.
This shall henceforth be known as the "Yeah, but you'd let your mom die" dilemma. I hope you think about it every time the Star-Spangled Banner is played.
Pay attention. I've already asked that question. This thread is bad enough without reposts.
I've been thinking the same thing. To me, just allowing someone to die unjustly when you have the ability to stop it isn't much better than killing the person yourself. I wonder how allowing someone to unjustly die fits with the "love thy neighbor" and "help the helpless" scenario. Guess the real world is not black and white.
Sorry, didn't see that until after I poasted. Since chick is still insisting you don't have to kill anyone to save lives, I thought it would be helpful to pose a specific, slam-dunk example like the Holocaust.Pay attention. I've already asked that question. This thread is bad enough without reposts.
It won't happen again.
Show me where I am "supporting the murder of millions of people." Because I'm not eager to murder people who are already murdering people? The ability to conceive of murdering people as being "acceptable" is what I'm trying to eliminate. Engaging in it, to stop OTHER MURDERERS from murdering... makes me a murderer. I'm helping to perpetuate the thing. It accomplishes the opposite. It allows it to go on and on.
You're looking for reasons to JUSTIFY killing people... so people will stop killing people. The past and present proves you wrong.
Your scenarios are fantasies. And, they're based in an ironic failure.
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Actually the result is the same. People die no matter what you do or don't do in that situation. It's just a matter of how many die. The only difference is you don't participate. I'm still interested in hearing a viable alternative from you though.
A viable alternative doesn't exist for you. It begins with YOU. Can you justify killing another human being? If so, then there is no alternative needed. It's working just fine. Enjoy the success.
The quandary about your mom is no different than any other game theory that would be discussed in an introductory political science class. And the Holocaust was a terrible reality, not a fantasy.
The only ironic failure is your absolutism.
I never said the Holocaust was a fantasy. The Holocaust was allowed and created because people back then thought like you think now- it's okay to kill some people in certain situations, based on certain criteria. It's just a matter of degree. I'm merely pointing out the relativism.
Remember, the Germans thought what they were doing was RIGHT! More relativism.
So you can't give me what you think is a viable alternative? I'm open to listening if you will tell me one. The only restriction I would put on your answer is that some theory based on us changing our way of thinking in the future doesn't qualify as a solution. I'm talking about an event in the past. What we evolve into doesn't help with past events.
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