Observations from the stands

[Ozheelfan]

Just lying back after fulfilling a dream more than half a lifetime in the making - getting to the DES Centre for a live game.

Not taking away from what I hope Gary has to say, but here are some game observations:

RJ is in total control. He’s learned his limitations and plays very comfortably within them. He can hit massive shots and set players up. While he’s not a classic point guard, he’s using his experience, natural gifts and developed skills to lead the way for this years team.

Armando seems stuck. He’s not finding easy spots to score from and his high post hand offs are not super effective. TBH all of the Heels high ball screens were not great - loose and soft (if that’s the right description)

EC had a better stat-line than he played. He seemed out of synch in the first half although I pointed out to my son a number of times to look out for how quickly he gets rid of the ball - in a good way. He’s obviously still finding his way but the talent is obvious… hopefully we’ll see him passing to Powell and Captain Jack in 24-25.

Ryan still isn’t shooting brilliantly but his defence when Hubert went to the press was smothering…. full court press and half court traps were super fun to watch… same with a number of forced shot clock violations.

Great to see Hubert going to the bench early and often. Seth looked very good and the mid-key pull-up was money.

After all the discussion it was unreal to see JWash playing at the 4 and doing it well! He had a great run in the first half with Mando at the 5.

Withers also had a solid game and played within his limitations.

The lopsided scoreline gave Hubert the chance to make James Okonkwo’s night. After Wojcik got clobbered for an and-one, Hubert subbed in Okonkwo who hit the free-throw… his first points as a Tar Heel. I guessed this at the game after he turned and made a small fist pump after the shot. He scored again later to bring up biscuits.

I’m sure I’ve missed some stuff -but that’s mostly what I saw….

Only other things: the seats are not the best, the concourse is crowded, the banners are awe-inspiring and the tribute to 00 was very moving.

Bring on ACC play!

 

[gary-7]

Just lying back after fulfilling a dream more than half a lifetime in the making - getting to the DES Centre for a live game.

Not taking away from what I hope Gary has to say, but here are some game observations:

RJ is in total control. He’s learned his limitations and plays very comfortably within them. He can hit massive shots and set players up. While he’s not a classic point guard, he’s using his experience, natural gifts and developed skills to lead the way for this years team.

Armando seems stuck. He’s not finding easy spots to score from and his high post hand offs are not super effective. TBH all of the Heels high ball screens were not great - loose and soft (if that’s the right description)

EC had a better stat-line than he played. He seemed out of synch in the first half although I pointed out to my son a number of times to look out for how quickly he gets rid of the ball - in a good way. He’s obviously still finding his way but the talent is obvious… hopefully we’ll see him passing to Powell and Captain Jack in 24-25.

Ryan still isn’t shooting brilliantly but his defence when Hubert went to the press was smothering…. full court press and half court traps were super fun to watch… same with a number of forced shot clock violations.

Great to see Hubert going to the bench early and often. Seth looked very good and the mid-key pull-up was money.

After all the discussion it was unreal to see JWash playing at the 4 and doing it well! He had a great run in the first half with Mando at the 5.

Withers also had a solid game and played within his limitations.

The lopsided scoreline gave Hubert the chance to make James Okonkwo’s night. After Wojcik got clobbered for an and-one, Hubert subbed in Okonkwo who hit the free-throw… his first points as a Tar Heel. I guessed this at the game after he turned and made a small fist pump after the shot. He scored again later to bring up biscuits.

I’m sure I’ve missed some stuff -but that’s mostly what I saw….

Only other things: the seats are not the best, the concourse is crowded, the banners are awe-inspiring and the tribute to 00 was very moving.

Bring on ACC play!

I was supposed to be at this one as well, but circumstances beyond my control kept me fom geting out of ATL this weekend as planned. With that said, reading about your experience salves the disappointment a bit and brought a smile to my face.

Really glad you got to do it, brother

Anyway, TBH, I wasn't gonna post anything, but I'll go ahead and drop a few notes here and hope this thread doesn't devolve into another crap-fest.

- You covered it --- last tune-up game where most everyone did good things, Blue Steel played minutes and we got biscuits. We cashed in most Assist ops and converted the and-1s we normally miss. Caveat is that this CSU team is not the competitive program from the past. They were physically overmatched inside and skill-wise at every position. So... with 3 tough ACC road games ahead, what I was looking for tonight was what will and won't hunt in league play.

What will hunt:
- Scrambles. Dean's full-court versions (with the "4" pckup point) --- 34 and 44 (and 54, that we haven't seen in decades) have options for 3 trap points --- 1. On the short inbound, 2. on the second pass (or skip pass) before halfcourt, and 3. just past halfcourt. While we've been typically doing the flash trap off the inbound and then backing off, tonight was the first time I can remember --- hell, since Dean was here --- that we actually persisted in all 3 trap areas in a possession. I knew we'd been practicing this, but I am stoked that we actually used it.

- Dunno if you noticed, but even when we didn't get TOs, they were barely clearing the 10-second count, and taking rushed shots. Pressing also mitigated our habit of becoming a half-court team when EC goes out.

- Of course, the question will be whether we have the nads to mix these in at Pitt/Clemson/State? We beat FSU with Scrambles --- and I 100% stand by what I said that we beat uk if we had done it more, so let's hope we deploy the terror weapon.

What won't hunt:
- Disjointed sub pattern. RJ and EC need more floor time together, especially establishing game flow. With the starting lineup we are a transition team and RJ's scoring is so much easier and more efficient in that configuration. Barring foul trouble they should stay together until the under-12 before alternating blows.

- The good news is that we're getting to where we can play with two Bigs or three Guards and still be effective.

One last thing:
From talking with folks closer to the program than I am over recent days, while we're all feeling it, losing Big Grits hit the Carolina family even harder than even we can imagine from this vantage point. Some former players are (understandably) taking it very hard. Hopefully tonight's tributes were cathartic for everyone. RIP, big fella. You will be missed...

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Good write-ups, guys. RJ is playing AA caliber hoops, and Jalen is demonstrating the shooting touch
that will serve us well in league play. Pitt effed up our season last year. Go get ‘em, Heels. GDTBATH

 

[tcb22]

Good write ups--Gary and Ozheel--thanks!. I was really happy to see the team come back ready to play. So often in the past three years we have watched the team struggle in these types of games. The new attitude, which is the old attitude of many years ago, is fun to watch. And this game was FUN to watch. Haven't been able to say that much lately. The schedule coming up is as challenging as the 5 non-conference games. At Pitt, at State, and at Clemson are all places that are challenging for us. Will be great if we take 2/3.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Oz, I also pointed out to my son how EC, without taking a dribble, advanced the ball up the court multiple times in a row. That kind of pressure causes havoc on a defense!

Does anyone else see a bit of disjointedness when EC and RJ are in the game together and RJ ends up bringing up the ball? I'm not referring to obvious fast break situations, but it seems, almost out of habit, RJ advances the ball when it feels like he should be differing that to EC. EC looks out-of-whack to me when it happens.

While it is a complete luxury to have multiple people, including Ingram and Ryan who can advance the ball in a break situation, I think we would be better suited for RJ to find EC and go set up for his shot. EC should also be demanding the ball from RJ as he does from every other Carolina player after a transition. I will say that it was more apparent when EC first cracked the starting lineup and seems to be working itself out as they play together.

Am I the only one seeing this (wouldn't be the first time🤣)?

 

[DSouthr]

OZ, I can just see the pure joy dripping off your words, a father and son days after Christmas, enjoying their passion for the first time in the Dean Dome, and the game being a blow out, have ya stopped smiling yet? LOL Thank you for sharing your experience, I consider it as a nice Christmas present that you gave us all!

I shared my take on this game on the other thread so I am not going to repeat that here, maybe a comment or 2 on others posts. Norcalheel, yes, there is some disjointed with Cadeau and RJ, strikes me as Cadeau trying to take more of a back seat and I don't think he has to do that.

TCB, I agree, this up coming trio of road games is going to be tough, we have struggled playing at Pitt, Clemson is one of the best teams in the country right now and we know that the wuffs would love nothing more than to beat us again. WE need to be tested on the road, these 3 up coming games will for sure be that.

As for the sub pattern, against better teams yeah, Paxon/Okonkwo maybe not till the game is basically over. High, love his hard work, want him to get limited minutes every game, I would like him at around 5mins a game. But I absolutely LOVE solid PT for Jalen/Seth/Withers we had last night. I honestly do not feel our subs pattern last night was a thing that can not be as effective vs stronger opponents. I do think Bacot can be a stronger weapon than he has been so far, I know Ryan can shoot better and consistently than he has so far, and Withers can be a real force if he plays more within himself and the flow of the game. I do know for a fact that playing your bench deep results in our having fresher legs at the end of halves, allows us to go on runs as Dean's teams used to. If you want hawking defense and wide open running game then you should want us going deep to our bench as we did last night so we have the legs to get it done! I don't like wearing our starters down having to log huge minutes, it is a long season and you want your team as fresh as they can be, deep bench allows that.

 

[gary-7]

Oz, I also pointed out to my son how EC, without taking a dribble, advanced the ball up the court multiple times in a row. That kind of pressure causes havoc on a defense!

Does anyone else see a bit of disjointedness when EC and RJ are in the game together and RJ ends up bringing up the ball? I'm not referring to obvious fast break situations, but it seems, almost out of habit, RJ advances the ball when it feels like he should be differing that to EC. EC looks out-of-whack to me when it happens.

While it is a complete luxury to have multiple people, including Ingram and Ryan who can advance the ball in a break situation, I think we would be better suited for RJ to find EC and go set up for his shot. EC should also be demanding the ball from RJ as he does from every other Carolina player after a transition. I will say that it was more apparent when EC first cracked the starting lineup and seems to be working itself out as they play together.

Am I the only one seeing this (wouldn't be the first time🤣)?

I'll make a quick observation on that. This speaks to EXACTLY why EC and RJ need as much floor-time togther as possible. So much of transition --- especially on bust-outs --- is adjusted on the fly under the basic rules you're taught. Since RJ filps between the 2 and the 1 he always has to be aware of personnel on the floor at the time.

As for Wings, the basic rule of bust-outs is you only do it if your PG isn't already ahead of you. Ingram has a habit of missing that pitch-ahead at times as we've seen.

Also, one thing that bothered me in the first half was EC actually giving up the rock too soon on the Secondary without creating a geometric advantage. It looked like he had been told to do that to create an early post action I was seeing. Trouble is, one of the rules of the Secondary is don't pitch ahead diagonally unless the target is past their ball-stopper -- otherwise, you just allow the retreating defenders to stay in their lanes without reacting to the normal sideline overload, which kills your reversals.

Sorry, i know that probably sounds like gibberish without video, but the good news was the staff seemed to catch that contradiction in the second half and we stopped that. But yes, defaulting to the rock in EC's hands in transition is hard to go wrong with.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Also, one thing that bothered me in the first half was EC actualoly giving up the rock too soon on the Secondary without creating a geometric advantage. It looked like he had been told to do that to create an early post action I was seeing. Trouble is, one of the rules of the Secondary is don't pitch ahead diagonally unless the target is past their ball-stopper -- otherwise, you just allow the retreating defenders to stay in their lanes without reacting to the normal sideline overload, which kills your reversals.

Gary, what you're saying is what I was always taught as well, however...

I think by advancing the ball quickly to our offensive end, it does cause havoc for the defense. Typically the first defender's back are guards and if our bigs and wings are running the floor, as they are, it causes mismatches inside. Not sure we took full advantage of those mismatches last night but seemed like a "walk before we run" kind of moment.

 

[gary-7]

Gary, what you're saying is what I was always taught as well, however...

I think by advancing the ball quickly to our offensive end, it does cause havoc for the defense. Typically the first defender's back are guards and if our bigs and wings are running the floor, as they are, it causes mismatches inside. Not sure we took full advantage of those mismatches last night but seemed like a "walk before we run" kind of moment.

Oh yeah, I'm all about running the floor, but the way I copied Dean teaching it was halving the foor (length-wise). The textbook scenario of course is advancing the ball to the middle following the outlet, but in liieu of that pushing/advancing up the same sideline until you can get a defensive reaction, which opens up reversals that force the D to scurry around finding guys.

 

[tarwhiz]

Oz, I also pointed out to my son how EC, without taking a dribble, advanced the ball up the court multiple times in a row. That kind of pressure causes havoc on a defense!

Does anyone else see a bit of disjointedness when EC and RJ are in the game together and RJ ends up bringing up the ball? I'm not referring to obvious fast break situations, but it seems, almost out of habit, RJ advances the ball when it feels like he should be differing that to EC. EC looks out-of-whack to me when it happens.

While it is a complete luxury to have multiple people, including Ingram and Ryan who can advance the ball in a break situation, I think we would be better suited for RJ to find EC and go set up for his shot. EC should also be demanding the ball from RJ as he does from every other Carolina player after a transition. I will say that it was more apparent when EC first cracked the starting lineup and seems to be working itself out as they play together.

Am I the only one seeing this (wouldn't be the first time🤣)?

I think you are spot on. I have been saying that since R.J. has been on his scoring run last 7-8 games.
I am in the camp that Cadeau needs to be on the ball, and more aggressive in his reads in the offense. Here lately R.J. has Been on the ball a LOT, even with Cadeau on the floor. Now, it is hard to argue the results of what R.J is doing, but I think Cadeau has regressed some in the process. His min have definitely taken a hit and let's be honest, he isn't a weapon yet off the ball.
I think the angst among fans is what happens to the offense if R.J has a off night? I think the answer to that problem is to put the ball in EC hands more often in order to 1) Get his confidence up to look to score more. 2) EC handling and controlling the ball more, will ultimately lead to easier buckets for everyone else on the floor. I don't think EC has gotten Bacot as many easy buckets this season as I envisioned. I think it is more about opportunity and mindset than it is about ability though.

 

[Ozheelfan]

I was supposed to be at this one as well, but circumstances beyond my control kept me fom geting out of ATL this weekend as planned. With that said, reading about your experience salves the disappointment a bit and brought a smile to my face.

Really glad you got to do it, brother

Anyway, TBH, I wasn't gonna post anything, but I'll go ahead and drop a few notes here and hope this thread doesn't devolve into another crap-fest.

- You covered it --- last tune-up game where most everyone did good things, Blue Steel played minutes and we got biscuits. We cashed in most Assist ops and converted the and-1s we normally miss. Caveat is that this CSU team is not the competitive program from the past. They were physically overmatched inside and skill-wise at every position. So... with 3 tough ACC road games ahead, what I was looking for tonight was what will and won't hunt in league play.

What will hunt:
- Scrambles. Dean's full-court versions (with the "4" pckup point) --- 34 and 44 (and 54, that we haven't seen in decades) have options for 3 trap points --- 1. On the short inbound, 2. on the second pass (or skip pass) before halfcourt, and 3. just past halfcourt. While we've been typically doing the flash trap off the inbound and then backing off, tonight was the first time I can remember --- hell, since Dean was here --- that we actually persisted in all 3 trap areas in a possession. I knew we'd been practicing this, but I am stoked that we actually used it.

- Dunno if you noticed, but even when we didn't get TOs, they were barely clearing the 10-second count, and taking rushed shots. Pressing also mitigated our habit of becoming a half-court team when EC goes out.

- Of course, the question will be whether we have the nads to mix these in at Pitt/Clemson/State? We beat FSU with Scrambles --- and I 100% stand by what I said that we beat uk if we had done it more, so let's hope we deploy the terror weapon.

What won't hunt:
- Disjointed sub pattern. RJ and EC need more floor time together, especially establishing game flow. With the starting lineup we are a transition team and RJ's scoring is so much easier and more efficient in that configuration. Barring foul trouble they should stay together until the under-12 before alternating blows.

- The good news is that we're getting to where we can play with two Bigs or three Guards and still be effective.

One last thing:
From talking with folks closer to the program than I am over recent days, while we're all feeling it, losing Big Grits hit the Carolina family even harder than even we can imagine from this vantage point. Some former players are (understandably) taking it very hard. Hopefully tonight's tributes were cathartic for everyone. RIP, big fella. You will be missed...

Thanks Gary, and please don’t stop adding your 2c…. If need be I’ll start a thread each time and you can be the second poster… as long as you point to the passer!

No Dave, I’ve not stopped smiling… flying out tomorrow and I’m worried how I’m going to explain to my wife the extra charges at the airport (for when I buy even more Tar Heel merch!)

As for in-game observations, I agree that EC and Davis are still ‘working it out’. Cadeau also showed a lot more aggressiveness with his own shot in the second half - the 3pointer helped but some of his drives were terrific.
My only thought is that Hubert might not be ready to trust anyone else with the offence, so he’s preparing for stretches of having just one of Elliot and RJ in at the same time… that said, Seth has shown considerable growth - he is lightning quick as he was last year but it looks like he’s added a 2nd and third gear instead of always going to 4th…. I reckon he’s good now and by next year he’ll be a very valuable piece.

I also left off any mention of Ingram - he seemed to be quieter despite racking up some good numbers. He is solid.

 

[al would]

It was nice to see Jwash get some PT and he does have a SWEEEET stroke .. think he might have drew iron once on a FT everything else was string music.

Shout out to Seth too. I was hoping he would get some extra minutes in this game and he looked more comfortable "being Seth". He looked really good finding his niche with that soft jumper in the lane and I'm waiting to see UNC post the box score cause I thought he had a really nice overall game and may go back and watch it here in a few. Not a great opponent but maybe a good time to try some things (which UNC did) that will help in this next stretch. GO HEELS !!

 

[gary-7]

I think you are spot on. I have been saying that since R.J. has been on his scoring run last 7-8 games.
I am in the camp that Cadeau needs to be on the ball, and more aggressive in his reads in the offense. Here lately R.J. has Been on the ball a LOT, even with Cadeau on the floor. Now, it is hard to argue the results of what R.J is doing, but I think Cadeau has regressed some in the process. His min have definitely taken a hit and let's be honest, he isn't a weapon yet off the ball.
I think the angst among fans is what happens to the offense if R.J has a off night? I think the answer to that problem is to put the ball in EC hands more often in order to 1) Get his confidence up to look to score more. 2) EC handling and controlling the ball more, will ultimately lead to easier buckets for everyone else on the floor. I don't think EC has gotten Bacot as many easy buckets this season as I envisioned. I think it is more about opportunity and mindset than it is about ability though.

All of y'all are hitting at the larger point here (no pun intended) --- the way the sub patterns are now is really counter-productive for EC, AND for team chemistry,

If you remember, RJ's early 10 pt outburst (of his 12 first-half pts.) came playing off the ball in EC's first shift of just around 6 minutes. It fits a pattern --- RJ doesn't have to do the "heavy lifting" of running the show and his shots come easier and percentages go up.

Y'all are also confirming the point that pulling EC too soon is hurting his offensive confidence. We're talking about a kid with "And-1 Mixtape" sklllz who can create his own shot and get to the rack pretty much any time he wants, after all. And he's being left open for 3s. One of the big adjustments for UNC PGs is knowing when to do those things and having the green light to make those choices.

The complementary issue is that our guys are still learning to play with HIM --- even now, they're still not in the habit of expecting EC's "impossible" passes, and we had 3 fumbles on those last night.

So yeah, I'll say it again -- leave EC and RJ in together until the under-12 before working in blows. And in general, 20 minutes/game of EC is not enough to take us where we want to go.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

You guys hit the nail on the head! I am happy you got to see the DES in person, Dude! It is a magical place and I still get goose bumps when I get there early enough to see the sea of light blue seats and simply look at the banners! Each one sparks memories (well maybe not the stuff that happened before the '60's) and each player jersey represents Family that have done us proud!

I will add that RJ is both the engine and the heart of our team. He provides leadership, energy, toughness, and keeps our team moving in the right direction! Maybe peeps think he isn't our PG and I agree that EC will be a great one, BUT when RJ runs the team, we still score, defend, and look organized. He just put down a stat line that has NEVER been done in UNC history! 10 assists and 0 turnovers are awesome even without the 20 points!
EC and RJ are both skilled and smart enough to figure it out. RJ is a little reticent to release the reigns because of the PTSD from last year! EC is deferring a little too much because he is a youngster AND because he senses slight resistance from RJ. I know it will only get better from here!

I loved the multiple Ds and the deep usage of the bench. I loved the obvious joy our teams plays with and how much they are happy for each other. The crowd was amazing. We filled the dome and stayed loud all game.

 

[Heelicious]

I think you are spot on. I have been saying that since R.J. has been on his scoring run last 7-8 games.
I am in the camp that Cadeau needs to be on the ball, and more aggressive in his reads in the offense. Here lately R.J. has Been on the ball a LOT, even with Cadeau on the floor. I think the answer to that problem is to put the ball . I don't think EC has gotten Bacot as many easy buckets this season as I envisioned. I think it is more about opportunity and mindset than it is about ability though.

Well I think this is at least as much on bacot as EC. I just haven’t seen bacot get better / maybe he’s even regressed - in working hard all the time to establish post positions especially against legit bigs. Too of them agains good competition bacot vanishes if the defense shows him any resistance

 

[Heelicious]

All of y'all are hitting at the larger point here (no pun intended) --- the way the sub patterns are now is really counter-productive for EC, AND for team chemistry,

If you remember, RJ's early 10 pt outburst (of his 12 first-half pts.) came playing off the ball in EC's first shift of just around 6 minutes. It fits a pattern --- RJ doesn't have to do the "heavy lifting" of running the show and his shots come easier and percentages go up.

Y'all are also confirming the point that pulling EC too soon is hurting his offensive confidence. We're talking about a kid with "And-1 Mixtape" sklllz who can create his own shot and get to the rack pretty much any time he wants, after all. And he's being left open for 3s. One of the big adjustments for UNC PGs is knowing when to do those things and having the green light to make those choices.

The complementary issue is that our guys are still learning to play with HIM --- even now, they're still not in the habit of expecting EC's "impossible" passes, and we had 3 fumbles on those last night.

So yeah, I'll say it again -- leave EC and RJ in together until the under-12 before working in blows. And in general, 20 minutes/game of EC is not enough to take us where we want to go.

Yes but I think / hope more EC + RJ time will come especially if by necessity against legit upcoming opponents. They need more time together but last night was a good game to see what guys like Seth and high and wash can give with more minutes. You can do that and it is valuable against a team that want going to stay within 30. The second string have likely earned their game PT in practice. Nice to reward them and keep them plugged in and hungry and ready for when needed.

Do t want to plug them in for first time against a big time opponent when one or two of our top 5 are hurt or in foul trouble.

 

[Heelicious]

You guys hit the nail on the head! I am happy you got to see the DES in person, Dude! It is a magical place and I still get goose bumps when I get there early enough to see the sea of light blue seats and simply look at the banners! Each one sparks memories (well maybe not the stuff that happened before the '60's) and each player jersey represents Family that have done us proud!

I will add that RJ is both the engine and the heart of our team. He provides leadership, energy, toughness, and keeps our team moving in the right direction! Maybe peeps think he isn't our PG and I agree that EC will be a great one, BUT when RJ runs the team, we still score, defend, and look organized. He just put down a stat line that has NEVER been done in UNC history! 10 assists and 0 turnovers are awesome even without the 20 points!
EC and RJ are both skilled and smart enough to figure it out. RJ is a little reticent to release the reigns because of the PTSD from last year! EC is deferring a little too much because he is a youngster AND because he senses slight resistance from RJ. I know it will only get better from here!

I loved the multiple Ds and the deep usage of the bench. I loved the obvious joy our teams plays with and how much they are happy for each other. The crowd was amazing. We filled the dome and stayed loud all game.

As @gary-7 amd others have said, need more multiples, way more, especially against not athletic, average guard teams. I don’t see any downside and every time we trap / press the results seem so net positive

 

[IDUNK4HEELS]

To me the biggest thing that came out of the game was all of the bench points as Washington and Trimble both scored in double digits. Also the time Washington and Bacot shared the court together.

 

[tarwhiz]

I

All of y'all are hitting at the larger point here (no pun intended) --- the way the sub patterns are now is really counter-productive for EC, AND for team chemistry,

If you remember, RJ's early 10 pt outburst (of his 12 first-half pts.) came playing off the ball in EC's first shift of just around 6 minutes. It fits a pattern --- RJ doesn't have to do the "heavy lifting" of running the show and his shots come easier and percentages go up.

Y'all are also confirming the point that pulling EC too soon is hurting his offensive confidence. We're talking about a kid with "And-1 Mixtape" sklllz who can create his own shot and get to the rack pretty much any time he wants, after all. And he's being left open for 3s. One of the big adjustments for UNC PGs is knowing when to do those things and having the green light to make those choices.

The complementary issue is that our guys are still learning to play with HIM --- even now, they're still not in the habit of expecting EC's "impossible" passes, and we had 3 fumbles on those last night.

So yeah, I'll say it again -- leave EC and RJ in together until the under-12 before working in blows. And in general, 20 minutes/game of EC is not enough to take us where we want to go.

Agree, he needs more run. His confidence, and the teams in him, will go up if he is given more freedom within the offense.
I would like to see specific rotations used with ONLY EC and with ONLY R.J that play to each of their strengths.
The default lineup should be the two of them together with EC on the ball.
@garywhat would be your ideal lineups with EC solo and with R.J solo?
I prefer EC with Bacot, JWith, Ingram and Ryan.
I prefer RJ with J Wash, Ingram, Seth and Ryan.
What say you, in the event they are NOT playing together?

 

[Ozheelfan]

You guys hit the nail on the head! I am happy you got to see the DES in person, Dude! It is a magical place and I still get goose bumps when I get there early enough to see the sea of light blue seats and simply look at the banners! Each one sparks memories (well maybe not the stuff that happened before the '60's) and each player jersey represents Family that have done us proud!

I will add that RJ is both the engine and the heart of our team. He provides leadership, energy, toughness, and keeps our team moving in the right direction! Maybe peeps think he isn't our PG and I agree that EC will be a great one, BUT when RJ runs the team, we still score, defend, and look organized. He just put down a stat line that has NEVER been done in UNC history! 10 assists and 0 turnovers are awesome even without the 20 points!
EC and RJ are both skilled and smart enough to figure it out. RJ is a little reticent to release the reigns because of the PTSD from last year! EC is deferring a little too much because he is a youngster AND because he senses slight resistance from RJ. I know it will only get better from here!

I loved the multiple Ds and the deep usage of the bench. I loved the obvious joy our teams plays with and how much they are happy for each other. The crowd was amazing. We filled the dome and stayed loud all game.

Thanks old timer!

I agree… EC and RJ will work it out. They seem like very clever, driven players with just enough ego to be very good, but not so much they get in each others way (last year?)

 

[Ozheelfan]

Well I think this is at least as much on bacot as EC. I just haven’t seen bacot get better / maybe he’s even regressed - in working hard all the time to establish post positions especially against legit bigs. Too of them agains good competition bacot vanishes if the defense shows him any resistance

Agreed. Unfortunately I believe Mando settled on just one style of play in his teens and he’s not been able to add to his arsenal over time.

 

[DSouthr]

All of y'all are hitting at the larger point here (no pun intended) --- the way the sub patterns are now is really counter-productive for EC, AND for team chemistry,

If you remember, RJ's early 10 pt outburst (of his 12 first-half pts.) came playing off the ball in EC's first shift of just around 6 minutes. It fits a pattern --- RJ doesn't have to do the "heavy lifting" of running the show and his shots come easier and percentages go up.

Y'all are also confirming the point that pulling EC too soon is hurting his offensive confidence. We're talking about a kid with "And-1 Mixtape" sklllz who can create his own shot and get to the rack pretty much any time he wants, after all. And he's being left open for 3s. One of the big adjustments for UNC PGs is knowing when to do those things and having the green light to make those choices.

The complementary issue is that our guys are still learning to play with HIM --- even now, they're still not in the habit of expecting EC's "impossible" passes, and we had 3 fumbles on those last night.

So yeah, I'll say it again -- leave EC and RJ in together until the under-12 before working in blows. And in general, 20 minutes/game of EC is not enough to take us where we want to go.

Geez, I do not want this to turn in to the last "stuff" thread so can we leave the drama out of it this time when we disagree. I very strongly disagree that the sub pattern hurt this team, I have the opposite view in that it really helps this team have the legs to press defensively, to run breaks, to up the tempo and keep it hot for 40mins. To say that the team needs to learn to play with Cadeau oh my, makes zero sense to me. How about the freshman needs to learn to play with upper classman college players, please stop with this worshiping of the kid (honestly, that is what it comes off as to me and I don't think I am alone in that view), he is a freshman and he is learning and he actually does make mistakes. His minutes are about what they should be right now.

Well of course RJ playing with Cadeau is good for us, considering that RJ is more a 2 guard than a PG, if I had a dollar for every time I have said that... I want RJ looking for his own offense as his primary thought, Cadeau as our point allows RJ to do that. This bust out stuff, well of course if for example Ingram rebounds and Cadeau or RJ are in front of him and he can both see them and has a clear passing lane for sure kick it up. But that is not always the case, Ingram is not your typical big man that you do not want leading the break, kid played a lot of PG for Jared last season, I do want him to give it up at a point but the guards need to present themselves to him within a passing lane. Ryan and Ingram can bust it up, lead the fast break for those of you not sure exactly what bust up means. The difference is that when Ingram or Ryan bust it up they need to get the ball out of their hands as soon as either RJ or Cadeau are clear for the pass, if Cadeau or RJ bust it out I am fine with either taking it all the way to the cup because they are stronger with the ball to take it all the way. What do you want, the guy that gets the board to wait on either Cadeau or RJ to be in a spot they can pass them the ball or a fast break? You want a fast break then the guards have to present themselves to the guy that gets the board very quickly because defenders are already peeling back.

Sorry, don't mean to disrupt but I just can't let it stand unchecked this it is never Cadeau's fault stuff, it is on everyone else because Cadeau is perfect, he is not perfect nor should he be expected to be, he is a darn freshman! The fact is Cadeau needs to attack more than he is right now, he is passing up lanes he could be driving thru and forcing the defense to scramble, needs to read who he is passing it to, understanding their strengths and weaknesses, where they need the ball, ARE THEY READY FOR THE PASS! ALL things that ALL freshman PGs struggle with and every one of you know that.

I 1,000% agree that Cadeau has to be our PG make no mistake about that and I do strongly believe he in time will develop in to being a great one for us, strongly believe he has retired jersey talent but for gosh sakes give him the time to learn and adjust before we go on this he can do no wrong jag. It is hard for me to not say anything when recap of this game is so slanted toward what everyone else did that did not allow Cadeau to shine when this game was about so much more.

Just my opinion, you can agree or not up to you either way but I believe what I have said is respectful and not a personal attack on the poster but my expression of disagreement of what I have read for far to long. I do not appreciate it when others offer their OPINIONS as FACT and attack anyone that does not see their opinions as fact. And I should NOT have feel like I have to say this... I am not talking down to anyone, I am expressing my opinion of this game and how our players are playing, I WILL NOT BE DICTATED TO OR TALKED DOWN TO for expressing my opinion or my disagreement if I am doing so respectfully nor should anyone one else be.

 

[DSouthr]

Yes but I think / hope more EC + RJ time will come especially if by necessity against legit upcoming opponents. They need more time together but last night was a good game to see what guys like Seth and high and wash can give with more minutes. You can do that and it is valuable against a team that want going to stay within 30. The second string have likely earned their game PT in practice. Nice to reward them and keep them plugged in and hungry and ready for when needed.

Do t want to plug them in for first time against a big time opponent when one or two of our top 5 are hurt or in foul trouble.

Absolutely!!!

 

[gary-7]

I

Agree, he needs more run. His confidence, and the teams in him, will go up if he is given more freedom within the offense.
I would like to see specific rotations used with ONLY EC and with ONLY R.J that play to each of their strengths.
The default lineup should be the two of them together with EC on the ball.
@garywhat would be your ideal lineups with EC solo and with R.J solo?
I prefer EC with Bacot, JWith, Ingram and Ryan.
I prefer RJ with J Wash, Ingram, Seth and Ryan.
What say you, in the event they are NOT playing together?

That's a great question. It is the next step in figuring out the optimum rotation going forward.

 

[gary-7]

Geez, I do not want this to turn in to the last "stuff" thread so can we leave the drama out of it this time when we disagree. I very strongly disagree that the sub pattern hurt this team, I have the opposite view in that it really helps this team have the legs to press defensively, to run breaks, to up the tempo and keep it hot for 40mins. To say that the team needs to learn to play with Cadeau oh my, makes zero sense to me. How about the freshman needs to learn to play with upper classman college players, please stop with this worshiping of the kid (honestly, that is what it comes off as to me and I don't think I am alone in that view), he is a freshman and he is learning and he actually does make mistakes. His minutes are about what they should be right now.

Well of course RJ playing with Cadeau is good for us, considering that RJ is more a 2 guard than a PG, if I had a dollar for every time I have said that... I want RJ looking for his own offense as his primary thought, Cadeau as our point allows RJ to do that. This bust out stuff, well of course if for example Ingram rebounds and Cadeau or RJ are in front of him and he can both see them and has a clear passing lane for sure kick it up. But that is not always the case, Ingram is not your typical big man that you do not want leading the break, kid played a lot of PG for Jared last season, I do want him to give it up at a point but the guards need to present themselves to him within a passing lane. Ryan and Ingram can bust it up, lead the fast break for those of you not sure exactly what bust up means. The difference is that when Ingram or Ryan bust it up they need to get the ball out of their hands as soon as either RJ or Cadeau are clear for the pass, if Cadeau or RJ bust it out I am fine with either taking it all the way to the cup because they are stronger with the ball to take it all the way. What do you want, the guy that gets the board to wait on either Cadeau or RJ to be in a spot they can pass them the ball or a fast break? You want a fast break then the guards have to present themselves to the guy that gets the board very quickly because defenders are already peeling back.

Sorry, don't mean to disrupt but I just can't let it stand unchecked this it is never Cadeau's fault stuff, it is on everyone else because Cadeau is perfect, he is not perfect nor should he be expected to be, he is a darn freshman! The fact is Cadeau needs to attack more than he is right now, he is passing up lanes he could be driving thru and forcing the defense to scramble, needs to read who he is passing it to, understanding their strengths and weaknesses, where they need the ball, ARE THEY READY FOR THE PASS! ALL things that ALL freshman PGs struggle with and every one of you know that.

I 1,000% agree that Cadeau has to be our PG make no mistake about that and I do strongly believe he in time will develop in to being a great one for us, strongly believe he has retired jersey talent but for gosh sakes give him the time to learn and adjust before we go on this he can do no wrong jag. It is hard for me to not say anything when recap of this game is so slanted toward what everyone else did that did not allow Cadeau to shine when this game was about so much more.

Just my opinion, you can agree or not up to you either way but I believe what I have said is respectful and not a personal attack on the poster but my expression of disagreement of what I have read for far to long. I do not appreciate it when others offer their OPINIONS as FACT and attack anyone that does not see their opinions as fact. And I should NOT have feel like I have to say this... I am not talking down to anyone, I am expressing my opinion of this game and how our players are playing, I WILL NOT BE DICTATED TO OR TALKED DOWN TO for expressing my opinion or my disagreement if I am doing so respectfully nor should anyone one else be.

Just curious: If you don't want this to be the last "stuff" thread then why participate in a troll thread?

 

[DSouthr]

Just curious: If you don't want this to be the last "stuff" thread then why participate in a troll thread?

What troll thread?

There are only 2 active threads discussing the last game, I am participating in both of them, neither are anything near a trolling thread. Both are rational, reasonable, and respectful threads. I posted my thoughts of this game on the other thread because when I wrote it there were more posts on the other thread than this one, no other reason. I posted to this one out of respect for Oz and the joy he was experiencing from being at this game with his son, I see no troll thread?

 

[tarwhiz]

That's a great question. It is the next step in figuring out the optimum rotation going forward.

After 12 games you surely have developed an opinion, I would love to hear it.
I will expand on mine a bit.
I like R.J. with Ingram as a tandem because it allows Carolina to initiate the offense from another source at times besides R.J.
When Cadeau is on the floor, I want HIM to initiate the offense all the time. I like him with Bacot and Withers because those two more than the others, need to be set up to score.
I prefer Eliott with the bigger lineups
Love to hear your thoughts.....

 

[Ozheelfan]

My 2 cents:

I believe Elliot makes RJ better, especially to begin the game. I also reckon we’ll see that pairing most of the time against quality foes over the next few weeks.

That said, I hope Hubert uses softer match-ups to still tinker and give extended minutes to Seth et al.

I also like Ingram at the 3 and withers starting as a bruising 4. Not that I don’t like JWash, but I think this year at least he can be most effective coming in as the fist sub (or second if Ryan is first) after Withers has ‘softened’ people up a bit.

That said, I am concerned with how the front court are not asserting their strength… Mando will fight for position down low but his perimeter screening is at best, meh. Jayden, Jalen and Zayden were also guilty of setting soft high screens.

Zayden and Paxon for spot minutes unless it’s a blow-out.

 

[gary-7]

What troll thread?

There are only 2 active threads discussing the last game, I am participating in both of them, neither are anything near a trolling thread. Both are rational, reasonable, and respectful threads. I posted my thoughts of this game on the other thread because when I wrote it there were more posts on the other thread than this one, no other reason. I posted to this one out of respect for Oz and the joy he was experiencing from being at this game with his son, I see no troll thread?

So you didn't notice the title and original poster, huh?

 

[DSouthr]

My 2 cents:

I believe Elliot makes RJ better, especially to begin the game. I also reckon we’ll see that pairing most of the time against quality foes over the next few weeks.

That said, I hope Hubert uses softer match-ups to still tinker and give extended minutes to Seth et al.

I also like Ingram at the 3 and withers starting as a bruising 4. Not that I don’t like JWash, but I think this year at least he can be most effective coming in as the fist sub (or second if Ryan is first) after Withers has ‘softened’ people up a bit.

That said, I am concerned with how the front court are not asserting their strength… Mando will fight for position down low but his perimeter screening is at best, meh. Jayden, Jalen and Zayden were also guilty of setting soft high screens.

Zayden and Paxon for spot minutes unless it’s a blow-out.

The only area I would not agree is of course I prefer Jalen over Withers at the 4, at least for now, Withers had not had a strong beginning but he has improved in the last couple games, great to see. Cadeau frees RJ up to do what RJ does best, find his own offense and not worry so much with distributing. The funny part is now more free to find his offense and his experience playing the point, his gosh darn passing has got so much better. He is almost becoming a better PG being our 2 guard in a strange twist? LOL

 

[Ozheelfan]

The only area I would not agree is of course I prefer Jalen over Withers at the 4, at least for now, Withers had not had a strong beginning but he has improved in the last couple games, great to see. Cadeau frees RJ up to do what RJ does best, find his own offense and not worry so much with distributing. The funny part is now more free to find his offense and his experience playing the point, his gosh darn passing has got so much better. He is almost becoming a better PG being our 2 guard in a strange twist? LOL

That is an irony Dave, but also a result of his freedom and increased scoring - he’s commanding double-teams, especially when he drives which is opening up opportunities for 1. Kick-outs (I think he assisted 3 3-pointers the other night, and 2. Drop offs … the pass to withers was a beauty!

I hear what you say about Washington, I agree but like him coming off the bench to boost the offence as opposed to starting.

 

[gary-7]

After 12 games you surely have developed an opinion, I would love to hear it.
I will expand on mine a bit.
I like R.J. with Ingram as a tandem because it allows Carolina to initiate the offense from another source at times besides R.J.
When Cadeau is on the floor, I want HIM to initiate the offense all the time. I like him with Bacot and Withers because those two more than the others, need to be set up to score.
I prefer Eliott with the bigger lineups
Love to hear your thoughts.....

Honestly, the clunky patterns have been distracting, but Ryan and Ingram with EC makes a lot of sense for the 3-pt threats, and Mando gets more good touches when EC is in.

With that said, from past notes we have had some productive stints with Seth and Ryan at the 2/3 with EC at PG. Put those three guys out there with Mando, and Wash or Ingram at the 4 could cover the rebounding vulnerability.

 

[montana_heel]

I agree with DSouthr. Cadeau's value isn't in being an awesome guard. It is being a good guard on a team that doesn't have another one. I too think he should play a lot and in time will be really good. But for right now just being a good guard is making RJ a very good scoring guard. I do just love how the ball moves quickly out of his hands.

I don't know how many players grasp the concept of shifting defense for an advantage. That can be done by the dribble but the pass, I believe, is more effective and requires much more effort be expended by the defense. Cadeau is very good at this and it doesn't show up on the star sheet. It is also contagious.

 

[DSouthr]

So you didn't notice the title and original poster, huh?

LOL, seriously?

First, I didn't know you had a patient on the word "stuff"... Second, last I read you were no longer going to do your "stuff" threads so someone else picked up the mantel. So it is a troll thread simply because YOU didn't start it? WoW...😮

 

[Ozheelfan]

I agree with DSouthr. Cadeau's value isn't in being an awesome guard. It is being a good guard on a team that doesn't have another one. I too think he should play a lot and in time will be really good. But for right now just being a good guard is making RJ a very good scoring guard. I do just love how the ball moves quickly out of his hands.

I don't know how many players grasp the concept of shifting defense for an advantage. That can be done by the dribble but the pass, I believe, is more effective and requires much more effort be expended by the defense. Cadeau is very good at this and it doesn't show up on the star sheet. It is also contagious.

True, whether I’m watch my son play, the Heels play, or NBA I find myself mumbling: “move the ball or move the man but don’t stand still”

 

[DSouthr]

I agree with DSouthr. Cadeau's value isn't in being an awesome guard. It is being a good guard on a team that doesn't have another one. I too think he should play a lot and in time will be really good. But for right now just being a good guard is making RJ a very good scoring guard. I do just love how the ball moves quickly out of his hands.

I don't know how many players grasp the concept of shifting defense for an advantage. That can be done by the dribble but the pass, I believe, is more effective and requires much more effort be expended by the defense. Cadeau is very good at this and it doesn't show up on the star sheet. It is also contagious.

Yeah, I love those things that do not show up on the stat sheets, example Ingram being an outside shooting threat will drag defenders with him where Nance or Leaky rarely did so last season.

 

[DSouthr]

True, whether I’m watch my son play, the Heels play, or NBA I find myself mumbling: “move the ball or move the man but don’t stand still”

OMG Oz, I lost count last season of how many times a game I would scream, FREAKIN MOVE watching Nance camp out beyond the 3pt arch doing nothing, just hanging out.

 

[notashelbyfan]

So you didn't notice the title and original poster, huh?

Dude you just can't get out of your own way can you. There are 2 threads going with great back and forth discussion and out of all the so called trolls you are the one to run the thread off the tracks, after posting in this thread and I quote "hope this thread doesn't devolve into another crap-fest."

 

[notashelbyfan]

LOL, seriously?

First, I didn't know you had a patient on the word "stuff"... Second, last I read you were no longer going to do your "stuff" threads so someone else picked up the mantel. So it is a troll thread simply because YOU didn't start it? WoW...😮

LOL unbelievable!

 

[gary-7]

I agree with DSouthr. Cadeau's value isn't in being an awesome guard. It is being a good guard on a team that doesn't have another one. I too think he should play a lot and in time will be really good. But for right now just being a good guard is making RJ a very good scoring guard. I do just love how the ball moves quickly out of his hands.

I don't know how many players grasp the concept of shifting defense for an advantage. That can be done by the dribble but the pass, I believe, is more effective and requires much more effort be expended by the defense. Cadeau is very good at this and it doesn't show up on the star sheet. It is also contagious.

"Contagious" is a good word. The whole team's willingness and improvement in ball-movement and motion is light-years better than recent seasons, and yes, that starts with our PG.

And yes, as someone posted above, RJ has become a better passer by osmosis. Cadeau makes passes in practice that have guys shaking their heads, and anyone who has played the game can remember teammates who have inspired/influenced, and he certainly has.

That said, I will take issue with EC just needing to be "good". I see a similarity to 2016 when Joel grabbed the alpha reins in the FF, and if not for that damned buzzer-beater would likely have been MOP a year sooner.

In other words, we know EC is gonna facilitate, but our road from being a NCAA first-weekend team to potential FF team runs through Eliot taking ownership. As I said, 20 minutes ain't gonna cut it. We need our Floor General leading the battle.