OOTB's Political Thread . ..
- Thread starter BillyL
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I have to disagree with some of this. Yes we have people suffering. We have always had that. Building more programs isnt going to help. SS has been the biggest crock in the history of government programs. Not that the idea of it is wrong, all the hands in the dish is the problem.
We have a problem in this country, one side blaming the other. Neither side gives a crap about that person suffering, unless they can garner a vote.
We cannot expect to level the playing field by going after successful people. Teaching people to be generous will help. My wife and I have helped people for years. We see someone in genuine need, and we help. We help people all the time in our church. But you have to filter it somehow. Americans will abuse the system as much as possible.
When you say helping them get ahead, what do you mean? Most have avaliability to food stamps, hud, welfare programs, free health care before that was even a thing, avaliability to community colleges, and other things.
I know many are in unfortunate situations. It usually takes at least 1 generation to pull out of it if that generation decides they are not going to live like that anymore. Personal accountability goes a long way. Being self employeed and having employees has taught me alot about how people really are. I have fired more lazy people who feel self entitled over the last few years than i care to remember. Its horrible. My wife worked in the school system for ec kids transpot. Some of the things she told me was pitiful. Most people can be accountable. Many choose not to be. Its a unfortunate reality of our world today.
There are a lot of poor people on foodstamps and medicaid, but a giant, more massive number of people barely are above poverty line and NOT eligible for either.
Middle-class people have netflix, nice cell phones and big gas-guzzling cars but are pay-check to pay-check teetering on the brink of poverty, with zero savings. This is why you see food banks with massive lines despite the existence of food-stamp programs. Despite food stamp programs "food insecurity" in this country is off the charts.
Income inequality isn't good for any society or country, and the middle-class in the US is shrinking. Having a healthy economy might be part of the answer but only if defined by things job creation and wage growth rather than GDP or S&P500. Trickle-down has been proven to not work anywhere in almost any era.
edit - affordable healthcare is a joke. Unless you earn so little (bordline poverty) that you have medicaid you can easily be bankrupted by healthcare costs.
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Those middle class folks are living outside of their means if they are 1 paycheck away from poverty. Income inequality? Cooperations are looking at bottom dollar. Everytime you us a kiosk to order/pay for food, express self checkout, prepay at the pump, puming your own fuel (for the old timers), all contribute to job loss for a worker. Furniture companies using CNC to cut parts. Its the direction we are in. I do a variety of construction jobs. If i could do it with robots and get rid of the human factor, i would do it in a heartbeat.
I had a guy who ive known for years. He had 2 kids with a woman. She dumped him and left him with the kids. He couldnt get help with social services because of custody issues. He couldnt afford a lawyer. He had the best phone you could by at the time. Smart phones had just came out. He never had money for.lunch. i would offer to buy him lunch. He always said, just get me a pack of smokes instead.
No motivation to do better for himself, missed work alot, never wanted overtime. Always looked for a handout.
How would you judge someone like that? Ive seen it time and time again. Ive been in business for 20 years. I have 3 workers that are the best ive had, and still have a pile of issues with them. Took me 20 years to find them. People are programed to think that they deserve more. Most do not take advantage of what they have.
I had a guy who ive known for years. He had 2 kids with a woman. She dumped him and left him with the kids. He couldnt get help with social services because of custody issues. He couldnt afford a lawyer. He had the best phone you could by at the time. Smart phones had just came out. He never had money for.lunch. i would offer to buy him lunch. He always said, just get me a pack of smokes instead.
No motivation to do better for himself, missed work alot, never wanted overtime. Always looked for a handout.
How would you judge someone like that? Ive seen it time and time again. Ive been in business for 20 years. I have 3 workers that are the best ive had, and still have a pile of issues with them. Took me 20 years to find them. People are programed to think that they deserve more. Most do not take advantage of what they have.
No problem with disagreement at all, my friend. Thank you for being polite.
I'd like to reframe my argument a bit. The goal is not to attack rich people, get people dependent on government cheese, or anything of the sort. It is to recreate a society where most people, not all, can feel comfortable.
There are winners and losers in every society, nothing can stop or change that. My personal perspective is that we have to drop the notion that the more money wealthy people hang on to, the better off everyone else will be because the success 'trickles down' as Reagan put it back in the eighties. But since then, middle class America has shrunk, industry continues to leave, and any increase in wealth is incredibly skewed towards the top earners. It is not to say the wealthy don't deserve the fruits of their labors. However, when that small group starts to own more money than well over half the population it becomes a problem.
Blazers put it pretty well. Even with the programs mentioned, it's still only enough to get by. And when you start to make above a certain amount, you lose it altogether and the situation becomes ever more perilous.
Put it more like this: wealthy people even taxed at higher rates will still have more than enough to live as they please for the rest of their lives. The same cannot be said for your average Joe. It's a major reason why populism has risen in the last decade and why there is so much anger and hopelessness out there.
To sum up: I don't want to 'equalize' people. I want to invest in better opportunities for people. Because those opportunities are not as abundant as they once were in prior decades.
what about the many Americans that don’t see it the same way and don’t care to “invest” in more opportunities for other people? I guess they’re just shit out of luck, huh? Forced charity.
How about this. Learn to live within your means. Learn to be content with what you have. Smartphones are a prime example. How many people have the latest and greatest phone avaliable? Would a much lesser phone serve? Also for a car, clothes, home, ect....
I grew up very poor. Lived in a community that was poor. My parents always attributed it to no education and no opportunity here. Well, i live in the same area now. I still have very little formal education, and have done ok for myself. Tjere are thousands of people here that live better than what i did growing up but are just as broke. They have the world avaliable to them, and refuse to use it. Most of them could go to school almost for free if they wanted to.
Inner cities fair much worse IMO. As long as the cost of living goes up, it will be this way. More technology, less jobs. Some feel they are to good to do simple labor. I fired a guy a few weeks before Christmas. He has a small kid and girlfriend. We built a dock, and he refused to get in the water to wash the pilings down. He sat on the bank and cursed me and said he didnt get paid enough to work in the mud. Just remember, i was in the mud as well.
Perspective is everything. Cut the cable, use basic phones, dont over extend your budget, and watch for opportunity when it arises.
It wont work for everyone, but it is avaliable to many.
I do not agree with redistribution of wealth. If i work and pay my fair part of taxes, then im finished with my obligations. I shouldnt be made to give anything else unless i choose to.
You're mischaracterizing it. I can't change anyone's mind, but I would ask people who feel that way to ask themselves if it's 'charity' to ensure that the majority of citizens in this country have health care, education, and a basic chance to live better or as well as their parents did. There is nothing about that that would make us Venezuela or some other shithole country like many on the far right suggest.
What kind of education? Reason I ask is because one of the biggest issues we have in this country is that way too many people go to college.
I think that is the case now. Going back to my childhood comparison, my dad grew up never having food avaliable like we have it now. No fresh cut meat except on certain times. Fresh veggies in the spring and summer. Seafood was avaliable, but they had to harvest it. He went to bed hungry almost every day. How many of us go to bed hungry? Children may be the biggest culprit today. And there are places that they can eat. Our schools require students to take everything avaliable on their trays so things like apples and oranges can be sent home to some of the kids they know will not get to eat when they get there. We talking about the pare ts who get their kids off the bus in the afternoon still in their pjs.
People throw away to much food. They go out to eat to much. I am very quilty of this myself. Im making a conscious effort to do better.
Ask me. And what I'll say is that it's not my responsibility to make sure everyone lives better than their parents. I can choose one or two families personally to help elevate on my own and be more in control of the help and assistance they receive. If I'm the one helping, I get to decide how to do so. Not some out-of-touch politician that attempts to fix everything with a one-size-fits-all solution that is bound to be taken advantage of and ultimately fail.
My position on education k-12 is that it should receive more federal funding, require that the head of the education department has served as a teacher or principal at some capacity, and ensure inner city schools aren't going down the shitter. Other than that, the states can do what they want.
College education I don't agree with subsidizing, but I do with community colleges and the encouragement of setting up a trade school similar to the German system.
There is help at the local level. As for schools, it really doesnt matter what background the teachers and principal has. Its all prepackaged curriculum base. Our local schools are rewarded for higher grades on achievement test.
Its all in the system they are in. My daughter went to public school thru the 8th grade. She went to an earlycollege and is coming out with her associates degree and high school diploma in 4 years. Its a 5 year program. She is looking to teach or be a guidance counselor. She wanted to do her bachelor and master online as much as possible. So far, it hasnt costed me a dime. So education is avaliable.
Most Community colleges offers trade school classes. Again, at a lower rate.
I would be ok with offering some type of tax credit for community college and trade schools. The problem today is that the education system has glorified college and pushed everyone to go. That shouldn't be the case. You can make a lot of money by going to a trade school and there is a huge demand for many of those jobs. The problem is that in addition to creating a student loan problem, promoting college has caused a societal shift in attitudes towards those blue college jobs. Blue collar jobs used to be looked at as a respectable job. Now it's looked at as being less than. Like it's somehow not as respectable that you don't have a college degree.
I agree with living within your means. Everyone has to do it including me as I live in an expensive city. But I also make enough to live reasonably well. Many do not through no fault of their own. We demonize poor people in this country far too much.
I get the snub look sometimes by people who think they are better. I understand this point
How have we demonized poor people? We have more excess now than ever. We will have poor people no matter what. Comparing yourself to lebron, Kardashians or some other star isnt reality. Making the best with what you have is success.
That's exactly my point. We have more excess now than ever and yet it's disproportionately accrued. LeBron and the Kardashians are bad examples. Of course not everyone can have as much as them. But more people can be like my aunt and uncle: two story house, kids, modest income, and savings, with enough to last them until they leave this world. That's what I mean.
There has been dog whistling on both sides, Republicans and Democrats for years, 'welfare queens' being a prime example. But the ethos going around in right wing circles nowadays is pretty much sink or swim and if you sink well then that's your fault which is not the correct way to view the situation.
you're too brainwashed to argue with. Self-centeredness is not synonymous with individuality. And if we are too self-centered, you're too single-mindededly commie to consider that that might be because our individuality is being eroded. And only the hopelessly clueless who are desperate to come up with an argument would attempt to make this about cliched symbols of patriotism. Only the truly idiotic would equate selfies with self-obsession. That one is hysterical.
BTW, I didn't say that the country was communist, I said YOU were a commie. I said the country is heading that way. You must be like thirteen years old if you can't see how things are going in that direction.
And there you go deflecting again, without acknowledging the Bill of Rights and why it was made part of the Constitution. Who is deflecting? YOU is deflecting, you commie you.
Yeah, some of the euro countries have a smart thing going with their trade system. It feels a bit like China, silo'ing the smart kids toward chem & bio at a fairly early age, and the more "industrious" kids toward trades, but it keeps them from having a million new college grads with useless "communications" degrees.
^no offense to communications degrees folks. Degrees probably matter less than "who you know" anyway.
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"I'd like to reframe my argument a bit, in order to sound less obviously like a commie."
FIFY. Nice try.
I told a nephew to consider plumbing instead of college - his mom almost kicked me. Those plumbers make bank, and if you get a solid reputation, eventually get some people hired his savings account will be plush compared to the 25 yr old version of himself with loans - and potential of waiting tables rather than using that ______ degree.
If you are dumb enough to believe that the election was "stolen" then I don't want to be your client for any type of business. Dumb might be harsh, cuz radicalization can even happen to smart people. Maybe gullible is the nicer word, but they're temporarily "lost" regardless.
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So now we need to funnel our kids in a certain direction like China? Thats what good guidance counselors are suppose to do. Develop kids based on strengths, not because the government said i need 10, 000 more factory workers.
Lib culture at its finest. Now people will lose their livelyhood for supporting their freedom of choice. Hypocrisy at its finest
I am sure your aunt and uncle worked hard to attain what they have. Im sure there were periods in their life they did without for the betterment of their future. Literally punishing successful people with a larger burden just to give more to other classes of people is not the correct way to handle it. The walmarts and targets of the world wont follow that lead. Remember some years back when it was going to be required to furnish benifits for larger companies such as target? Target played ball, they moved the bulk of their employees to part time to beat that requirement. Forcing social corrections on successful companies only causes bad ripples. $15 per hour minimal wage means
$15 quarterpound combo at McDonalds. It means higher prices across the board for everyone, even the ones who get $15 to flip that burger. It means new innovations to reduce the workforce. If i have to pay $15 to a greenhorn in my business, who do you think is going to pay that? Throwing money at a problem does not solve that problem.
sure, it's all I've got if you refuse to acknowledge anything other than the word commie....which is exactly what you're doing. I'm so surprised that you try to take the easy way out of a discussion. Just like a damn commie.
What does "their freedom of choice" have to do with that person deep-end-diving into conspiracy-world.
If you believe kids adrenochrome glands are harvested for hollywood then I don't want to be in business with you, likewise if you believe the vaccine has a chip triggered by 5g, and likewise if you believe voter fraud occurred.
That type of person's discernment is no longer very trustworthy. If that person wants to make a declaration to the world that they were simply supporting Trump 2024 rather than "stopTheSteal", or that they were voicing their concern over the way their state handled mail-in, that's a different story (though the latter is going to make me slightly suspicious of their head too).
Welcome to free market where I have freedom of choice to do business with people who aren't brainwashed.
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You've refused to actually have a conversation other than telling me I’m a communist every five minutes. I don’t even think you know what an actual communist is haha.
What difference does it make? Are you hiring based off political beliefs or by qualifications? There are many professional people who believe the election was not completely fair. Now that is compaired to those far reaching conspiracies? People ha e every right to disagree. My God, people flipped out when he beat Hillary. Many still feel russia rigged that election. So tell me, whats the difference? Once it was over, all the mud slinging and crap talking was over. Why cant libs let it go? Bidens 1st term will be blame trump time, same as obamas was blame bush time.
People have a right to believe what they want. Shaming people who dont agree with your belief is wrong. Given what hell most people put trump thru, with all the trials, accusations, and such, it no wonder people believe it was rigged. This impeachment crap is the last ditch effort. You cant impeach someone who wont be there to be removed. If they follow up with it, then theres your conspiracy
First, guidance counselors have helped setup the scenario of every kid in america thinking they need to go to college. That process is broken. Too many college kids are graduating with college-loans and job prospects that don't match.
Second, I probably didn't describe the process well. The "funneling" is based on kid's strengths, but obviously factor is clearly what the market needs.
Third, most of that schooling is entirely free. I'm sure if a wealthy "bad student" wants a degree for something they'll never be able to use, they can still get it.
Despite your point that market (or gov) shouldn't intervene, it would suck if the market needs 50X as many ditch-diggers as rocket-scientists while the majority of the kids are genius, but the result is better for the financially-speaking since many of them would have expensive rocket-science-schooling but only have ditch-digging job offers.
Its not societies jump to funnel kids like that. Public school guidance counselor need a correction as well. I agree that trades are great. I am in one myself. But i benefit much more than my employees. Risk verse reward. You cant have 1000 plumbers in a county and expect it to flurish. The cost of operating a business is high. The more work, the more cost involved. And in trades, that doesnt always equal more money. Everyone cannot be self employed. And 1 downturn in the economy it all goes to pot anyway. My area is construction rich with lots of new home growth. 30 miles west of me is nowhere near the same. It has to be even more competitive in cities for work and viable jobs as well.
I just worked on some entry enclousures for the nuclear plant. They are 40' long and 15' wide. I talked with the rep from the manufacturer. He said most of the welding was done by a machine. If this is happening across the country, why would we flood the market with 1000s of new welders?
PS... we dont need ditch diggers either, we have machines for that also
Like I said, if that person's belief is that they disliked their state's chosen process & procedures around votes, that's fine. But that is a state matter (per supreme court and constitution) and pretty different from the point of the rally.
Also "Collusion with russia" (see charges from Mueller report) and "russia rigged 2016 election" are NOT the same thing.
I don't know anybody who believes 2016 was rigged. Russia mettled with social media, and Manafort & co did shady stuff, but that doesn't mean that changed votes, stole votes or did any rigging.
I agree. Shaming and choosing a better business partner are two different things though. All things equal i'm going to choose the bus partner who isn't brainwashed.
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" $15 per hour minimal wage means
$15 quarterpound combo at McDonalds. It means higher prices across the board for everyone, even the ones who get $15 to flip that burger. It means new innovations to reduce the workforce. If i have to pay $15 to a greenhorn in my business, who do you think is going to pay that? Throwing money at a problem does not solve that problem "
good stuff, and funny but I was thinking of posting exactly this same thing this morning. I too was going to point out that when prices rise due to injecting a cost increase into the picture, that it's still the burger flipper who can't afford to buy his own burger. In reality all they've done in essence is transform a worker who doesn't make enough to buy what the wealthier can for one who makes more money but now can't afford the pricier product. In the process, you've also made products and services less affordable and therefor a less attractive purchase for everyone. The more well-off still can if they choose to, but even they are now less likely to; so what exactly has been accomplished? A step backward is the shining achievement, with the opportunity to continue whining about how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer being an extra added benefit.
The pathetic part is that you don't have to be a rocket surgeon to intuitively understand that this will happen. Yet a huge chunk of our elected representatives think they can wave this magic government money wand that they possess and everything will be better, as if by some half-baked thought process that they can't explain.
Fundamentally, business is about the most easily understood endeavor we deal with every day. Yet so many of our elected geniuses apparently have never thrown a rock into that pond, and considered the resulting effect.
an actual communist is you. Of course, you are too oblivious to understand that you are one.
How many times now is it that in the process of trying to tell me what I'm guilty of, that you have actually BEEN guilty of same? EVERY time. You are a deflection machine, and you have nothing of substance to offer. HMMM, accuses others of what he himself is guilty of....maybe you're just a liberal after all. A liberal of course is a commie larva. You liberal commie larva, you.
How close do you think we are to fully automated fast food restaurants? Think about this. We already have kiosk in many places to order or ordering by an app. How hard would it be to have a CNC build a burger from frozen to completion? Always have hot fries and your order to be exactly like you order it. You increase wages like that, then these companies will find a way to circumvent the change. Ot always happens. Duke energy wanted to save money on their employee cost. Solution, cut jobs and double the remaings responsibility. 2/3 of their people are now gone. Its better to teach responsibility and how to plan for your future than advertise the lastest smartphone and make people believe they have to have it.
Another thing going away is companies paying retirement benefits. Its hard to find that now. 401K is offered, but how far will that go in paying retirement at your local coop?
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