Our starting 5......

[DaveChapelle]

Frankly, that is just a silly question.

Why? Because you can't answer it? Or because you don't want to admit just how horrendous 9 fouls per 40 minutes is?

When a player, especially a guy at the end of the bench, fouls at a rate like that he basically becomes unplayable for the coaching staff. Because when you put him in the game all he's doing is quickly putting the opposing team into the bonus and onto the free throw line. He's also hurting his opportunities to play in real games and actually develop.

I can run down a long list of back up big men at UNC that never had a season with a foul rate like Zayden High: Marty Hensley, Warren Martin, Matt Wenstrom, Brian Bersticker, Will Johnson, Jackson Simmons, Byron Sanders, Joel James, Desmond Hubert, Brandon Huffman...

The only player I can find with a similar foul rate is Ed Geth, who averaged 8.4 fouls per 40 minutes his freshman year. But guess what? Ed Geth also shot a significantly higher field goal percentage and made more shots as a freshman, while playing less minutes than High, and he was on a national championship team.

I'm sure somebody somewhere flippantly said "Do you not understand that players actually develop?" about all the big men I've just named. But there is no magic wand that transforms a player into a contributor on a Blue Blood. Some guys just never progress beyond backups and some guys never get off the end of the bench.

 

[khalidha]

Can you name another Tar Heel basketball player who averaged 9 fouls per 40 minutes?

Off the top of your head, what former player had the worst foul rate in a single season?

ISAIAH HICKS!!!! Dude couldn't walk without fouling somebody! lolllll!!!!

And they were all dumb fouls away from the ball...not protecting the rim or trying to make a play.

 

[Kool1234567]

Why? Because you can't answer it? Or because you don't want to admit just how horrendous 9 fouls per 40 minutes is?

When a player, especially a guy at the end of the bench, fouls at a rate like that he basically becomes unplayable for the coaching staff. Because when you put him in the game all he's doing is quickly putting the opposing team into the bonus and onto the free throw line. He's also hurting his opportunities to play in real games and actually develop.

I can run down a long list of back up big men at UNC that never had a season with a foul rate like Zayden High: Marty Hensley, Warren Martin, Matt Wenstrom, Brian Bersticker, Will Johnson, Jackson Simmons, Byron Sanders, Joel James, Desmond Hubert, Brandon Huffman...

The only player I can find with a similar foul rate is Ed Geth, who averaged 8.4 fouls per 40 minutes his freshman year. But guess what? Ed Geth also shot a significantly higher field goal percentage and made more shots as a freshman, while playing less minutes than High, and he was on a national championship team.

I'm sure somebody somewhere flippantly said "Do you not understand that players actually develop?" about all the big men I've just named. But there is no magic wand that transforms a player into a contributor on a Blue Blood. Some guys just never progress beyond backups and some guys never get off the end of the bench.

Who are some guys that had a high foul rate per 40 minutes there freshman year and got better…The reason I ask is because that stat can be misleading…High was only going to play 5 or 6 minutes at most unless it was a blow out…I would think the staff would have told him look you got 5 fouls so don’t worry about foul trouble…Nothing easy for anyone while you are on the court…Y’all must remember HD learned under another HOF coach besides Smith and Williams….

 

[Spaceytoyz]

J Brown has a good bit more offensive skills than High he may be really good as a sophomore .. If High doesn’t go to the next level he may Transfer after this year

 

[alabamaheel]

Who are some guys that had a high foul rate per 40 minutes there freshman year and got better…The reason I ask is because that stat can be misleading…High was only going to play 5 or 6 minutes at most unless it was a blow out…I would think the staff would have told him look you got 5 fouls so don’t worry about foul trouble…Nothing easy for anyone while you are on the court…Y’all must remember HD learned under another HOF coach besides Smith and Williams….

No doubt. And if you know you have to be on the court when it matters, you play differently. I’d imagine that was some of Highs case. Players also grow up and learn.

 

[DaveChapelle]

ISAIAH HICKS!!!! Dude couldn't walk without fouling somebody! lolllll!!!!

And they were all dumb fouls away from the ball...not protecting the rim or trying to make a play.

Isaiah Hicks worst season was 6.7 fouls per 40 minutes. Not even close to the foul rate High just had.

Try again.

 

[dtodd4475]

Why? Because you can't answer it? Or because you don't want to admit just how horrendous 9 fouls per 40 minutes is?

When a player, especially a guy at the end of the bench, fouls at a rate like that he basically becomes unplayable for the coaching staff. Because when you put him in the game all he's doing is quickly putting the opposing team into the bonus and onto the free throw line. He's also hurting his opportunities to play in real games and actually develop.

I can run down a long list of back up big men at UNC that never had a season with a foul rate like Zayden High: Marty Hensley, Warren Martin, Matt Wenstrom, Brian Bersticker, Will Johnson, Jackson Simmons, Byron Sanders, Joel James, Desmond Hubert, Brandon Huffman...

The only player I can find with a similar foul rate is Ed Geth, who averaged 8.4 fouls per 40 minutes his freshman year. But guess what? Ed Geth also shot a significantly higher field goal percentage and made more shots as a freshman, while playing less minutes than High, and he was on a national championship team.

I'm sure somebody somewhere flippantly said "Do you not understand that players actually develop?" about all the big men I've just named. But there is no magic wand that transforms a player into a contributor on a Blue Blood. Some guys just never progress beyond backups and some guys never get off the end of the bench.

High seemed almost spastic with energy last season, goal tends as well as picking up fouls. He was not expected to play much, and did not as a frosh. When he did get in it seemed as if his role was to bring energy. Piicking up fouls was not a concern in that role.

Whatever he gives this year is a bonus in my eyes, but, I saw him and still see him as a project contributing big down the line recruit type. If he sticks around he may be just that down the line, athletic, long, raw, youngster at this point.

 

[dtodd4475]

Brown is a wild card for me at this point. I saw him a lot through high school in Chicago, season, summer ball, and AAU. He is much more skilled than High, but less athletic. The move to the national level team went poorly. Bad fit? Exposed?

He's young with good footwork, skilled finishing with both hands. I think May is ideal to work with him. I question if he has that DAWG in him though. You don't teach that.

 

[gary-7]

Why? Because you can't answer it? Or because you don't want to admit just how horrendous 9 fouls per 40 minutes is?

When a player, especially a guy at the end of the bench, fouls at a rate like that he basically becomes unplayable for the coaching staff. Because when you put him in the game all he's doing is quickly putting the opposing team into the bonus and onto the free throw line. He's also hurting his opportunities to play in real games and actually develop.

I can run down a long list of back up big men at UNC that never had a season with a foul rate like Zayden High: Marty Hensley, Warren Martin, Matt Wenstrom, Brian Bersticker, Will Johnson, Jackson Simmons, Byron Sanders, Joel James, Desmond Hubert, Brandon Huffman...

The only player I can find with a similar foul rate is Ed Geth, who averaged 8.4 fouls per 40 minutes his freshman year. But guess what? Ed Geth also shot a significantly higher field goal percentage and made more shots as a freshman, while playing less minutes than High, and he was on a national championship team.

I'm sure somebody somewhere flippantly said "Do you not understand that players actually develop?" about all the big men I've just named. But there is no magic wand that transforms a player into a contributor on a Blue Blood. Some guys just never progress beyond backups and some guys never get off the end of the bench.

Dude. We're talking about a miniscule sample space (something that should be obvious, BTW), for that fouling stuff, and that is a correctable thing with improved footwork and savvy.

And you're damned straight I posted "Do you not understand that players actually develop?", and no, I was NOT being flippant. UNC cannot be about roster reconstruction every year --- we need to recruit, develop and then fill in gaps with the portal. So far, so good.

Player development is not a "magic wand" --- it's about learning, coaching and maturing physically and mentally. High came in still raw but with a WORLD of upside, and Dean Smith himself famously said that Big kids take longer to mature. Yet, your're seemingly ready to flush him? Sorry. That's just being hysterical.

 

[Kool1234567]

Dude. We're talking about a miniscule sample space (something that should be obvious, BTW), for that fouling stuff, and that is a correctable thing with improved footwork and savvy.

And you're damned straight I posted "Do you not understand that players actually develop?", and no, I was NOT being flippant. UNC cannot be about roster reconstruction every year --- we need to recruit, develop and then fill in gaps with the portal. So far, so good.

Player development is not a "magic wand" --- it's about learning, coaching and maturing physically and mentally. High came in still raw but with a WORLD of upside, and Dean Smith himself famously said that Big kids take longer to mature. Yet, your're seemingly ready to flush him? Sorry. That's just being hysterical.

This….Its hard for me to just say get rid of the kid after his Freshman year…I like his energy and he plays hard just has to learn how to control it…Plus it’s not like he was a Top 10 guy coming in…

 

[DSouthr]

My Starters, easy, EC, RJ, Tyson, JWit, and Lubin (does not matter for me if Jalen starts at the 5 and Lubin comes off the bench). I would prefer either Jalen or Lubin handle the 5 so starting them together is not the best plan IMO.

First big off the bench Jalen and first back court guy off the bench Seth. Filter in Ian and Drake.

 

[khalidha]

Isaiah Hicks worst season was 6.7 fouls per 40 minutes. Not even close to the foul rate High just had.

Try again.

Isaiah averaged 12 dumb fouls per 40 minutes! I stand by what I said. Go back to the tape.

Remember when Brice Johnson got caught picking daisies on defense every game as a freshman. Some freshmen are walking turnovers. RJ Davis couldn't pass or dribble. He would lose the ball with no pressure. Remember that Vince Carter was called a BUST as a freshman. The average big as a freshman has been an uncoordinated mess of a player. Remember when Bacot was a freshman 12 years ago....???? lollll Yeah chubby Bacot with no lift at all.

High played more minutes than I thought he would play last year. That was valuable time for his development. I don't expect him to light the world on fire next year but he will play whatever role the coach asks. He will continue to grow as a player and I appreciate the energy that he brings. That energy is what gets him on the court. If he fouls somebody going to the basket, so be it. NO EASY BUCKETS!!!

 

[DaveChapelle]

Isaiah averaged 12 dumb fouls per 40 minutes! I stand by what I said.

Nope

Isaiah Hicks College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Isaiah Hicks - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more

www.sports-reference.com

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Somebody tell me what possible reason could a UNC fan have for tearing down one of our own!

 

[NathanFielder]

My opinion (if it matters) on High is that I ultimately have no idea. I think chances are pretty slim that he'll be a starting caliber big. I don't know what the chances are that he'll be a Huffman/Joel James/Desmond Hubert. I think he's more talented than those 3, but in the end, I have no idea what kind of player he'll be.

For me, he didn't play enough to have a concrete opinion one way or another. And progress isn't linear, nor is it guaranteed in life or basketball.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Now that is a 100% fair discussion!

I happen to be more optimistic about his potential but even I don't think he will be starter level next year. I do expect him to be a definite rotation piece by the season after if he stays!

 

[NathanFielder]

Isaiah averaged 12 dumb fouls per 40 minutes! I stand by what I said. Go back to the tape.

Remember when Brice Johnson got caught picking daisies on defense every game as a freshman. Some freshmen are walking turnovers. RJ Davis couldn't pass or dribble. He would lose the ball with no pressure. Remember that Vince Carter was called a BUST as a freshman. The average big as a freshman has been an uncoordinated mess of a player. Remember when Bacot was a freshman 12 years ago....???? lollll Yeah chubby Bacot with no lift at all.

High played more minutes than I thought he would play last year. That was valuable time for his development. I don't expect him to light the world on fire next year but he will play whatever role the coach asks. He will continue to grow as a player and I appreciate the energy that he brings. That energy is what gets him on the court. If he fouls somebody going to the basket, so be it. NO EASY BUCKETS!!!

It's hard for me to compare High to either Hicks or Brice Johnson. As obvious as it was that Hicks was a project, he was still a 5* top 20 project. I'm just going to have different expectations for a player who was almost universally viewed as a top-20 incoming player.

I don't think the Brice comparisons are fair either. It was abundantly clear from day 1 that Brice can put the ball in the basket.

While UNC has a track record of developing some unheralded big guys (Meeks, Maye), there's also a list of guys unheralded that amounted to basically 0's (Huffman, Joel James, Desmond Hubert).

I personally don't see High as skilled as Maye or Meeks. But I don't think he's just a gigantic uncoordinated mess of a basketball player like Huffman, Joel James, or Desmond Hubert either.

He's a complete unknown. Hopefully, he will develop into a solid rotational piece. But I'll be honest... I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world if he doesn't.

 

[DaveChapelle]

It's hard for me to compare High to either Hicks or Brice Johnson. As obvious as it was that Hicks was a project, he was still a 5* top 20 project. I'm just going to have different expectations for a player who was almost universally viewed as a top-20 incoming player.

I don't think the Brice comparisons are fair either. It was abundantly clear from day 1 that Brice can put the ball in the basket.

While UNC has a track record of developing some unheralded big guys (Meeks, Maye), there's also a list of guys unheralded that amounted to basically 0's (Huffman, Joel James, Desmond Hubert).

I personally don't see High as skilled as Maye or Meeks. But I don't think he's just a gigantic uncoordinated mess of a basketball player like Huffman, Joel James, or Desmond Hubert either.

He's a complete unknown. Hopefully, he will develop into a solid rotational piece. But I'll be honest... I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world if he doesn't.

Meeks was a McDonald's All American. He definitely wasn't unheralded.

 

[NathanFielder]

Meeks was a McDonald's All American. He definitely wasn't unheralded.

I don’t really care about that. Bobby Frasor was a McDonalds All American. I judge it more by where you are in the recruiting rankings across the board.

 

[DaveChapelle]

PG: Cadeau 28 mins, Davis 12
SG: Davis 18, Trimble 18, Jackson 4
SF: Jackson 20, Powell 15, Tyson 5
PF: Tyson 23, Withers 12, Powell 5
C: Lubin 28, Washington 12

Davis 30 mins
Cadeau 28 mins
Tyson 28 mins
Lubin 28 mins
Jackson 24 mins
Powell 20 mins
Trimble 18 mins
Washington 12 mins
Withers 12 mins

 

[gary-7]

PG: Cadeau 28 mins, Davis 12
SG: Davis 18, Trimble 18, Jackson 4
SF: Jackson 20, Powell 15, Tyson 5
PF: Tyson 23, Withers 12, Powell 5
C: Lubin 28, Washington 12

Davis 30 mins
Cadeau 28 mins
Tyson 28 mins
Lubin 28 mins
Jackson 24 mins
Powell 20 mins
Trimble 18 mins
Washington 12 mins
Withers 12 mins

RJ ideally plays as little PG as possible, and only 12 minutes of JWash would be a self-inflicted epic fail.

 

[gary-7]

I don’t really care about that. Bobby Frasor was a McDonalds All American. I judge it more by where you are in the recruiting rankings across the board.

And Bobby was a helluva player before the knee, so what's your point?

 

[NathanFielder]

And Bobby was a helluva player before the knee, so what's your point?

He shot 37% as a freshman. Then played fewer minutes per game than Wes Miller as a sophomore.

He was a role player, probably a solid one at that. But nothing accolade-worthy. And wasn't really accolade worthy in high school either.

 

[dtodd4475]

He shot 37% as a freshman. Then played fewer minutes per game than Wes Miller as a sophomore.

He was a role player, probably a solid one at that. But nothing accolade-worthy. And wasn't really accolade worthy in high school either.

I was always underwhelmed with him in high school, being from the area. Solid guy, not a high school big timer in these parts though, as those type go, but he got the McDonald's nod.

 

[NathanFielder]

I was always underwhelmed with him in high school, being from the area. Solid guy, not a high school big timer in these parts though, as those type go, but he got the McDonald's nod.

Which area? I have family in the Chicago area.

 

[alabamaheel]

Which area? I have family in the Chicago area.

I think I remember him saying he was close to Gary Indiana. Dtodd must be a bad bad man!

 

[dtodd4475]

Which area? I have family in the Chicago area.

I think I remember him saying he was close to Gary Indiana. Dtodd must be a bad bad man!

I'm from East Chicago, Indiana. 5 minutes to Southside Chicago to the west. Gary is five minutes south. GI and them Chicago boys knew/know those EC boys bring it. They do as well, great hoop area.

 

[khalidha]

It's hard for me to compare High to either Hicks or Brice Johnson.

My main point was that these talented guys looked REALLY bad as freshmen. I don't think High has that upside but I also think he will help us win games as he matures as player and finds his role with the team.

Some people forget that you need more than starters to field a competitive basketball team. Those 3 or 4 guys that come off the bench are super important. BTW I am not seeing huge minutes for

 

[roadmaster]

Last year Ingram was an incredible fit. Just outstanding! Heels need that kind of boost again. It’s gonna be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[DaveChapelle]

My main point was that these talented guys looked REALLY bad as freshmen. I don't think High has that upside but I also think he will help us win games as he matures as player and finds his role with the team.

Some people forget that you need more than starters to field a competitive basketball team. Those 3 or 4 guys that come off the bench are super important. BTW I am not seeing huge minutes for

High didn't even look good his senior year of high school. Go watch the Geico Championship tourney (that Cadeau's team won.) High spent most of it sitting on the bench. When he was on the floor, he didn't do much.

He might eventually develop into a helpful bench player as an upperclassman. But it's highly unlikely he's going to give us much his sophomore season. You're not going to magically get him to stop being a foul magnet in just one offseason.

 

[NathanFielder]

My main point was that these talented guys looked REALLY bad as freshmen. I don't think High has that upside but I also think he will help us win games as he matures as player and finds his role with the team.

Some people forget that you need more than starters to field a competitive basketball team. Those 3 or 4 guys that come off the bench are super important. BTW I am not seeing huge minutes for

I don't entirely disagree. We will watch the cake bake here and hopefully, he develops into a contributing player on a good team. My point is it wouldn't surprise me if he turned out to be a 0 like Desmond Hubert to go along with the other people that are expecting him to become a quality player. I have no freaking clue what he'll end up becoming.

But I also think the Brice Johnson or Isiah Hicks comparisons are unrealistic. We're dealing with a lesser amount of talent by a significant margin IMO. I know all freshmen look bad at times. Hell, all sophomores, juniors, and seniors probably look bad at times too.

 

[khalidha]

Brice Johnson or Isiah Hicks comparisons are unrealistic.

Only comparison made was that they were terrible as freshmen. Re: Desmond Hubert - He had negative motor on the court. That is one of the things that I saw out of High when he was on the court. We bring guys here to put in the work. If High puts in the work, he can eventually provide quality minutes off of the bench.
We will see what High does behind the scenes to make himself better.

Mr. Chapelle doesn't want to admit that his assumption that High is the worst big to ever come through UNC is flawed. There was even a Joel James comparison who would catch the ball near the basket (ALONE!!!) and turn the wrong way only to miss the shot. James/ D. Hubert comparisons are a non-starter IMO and ridiculous. I'm not even sure if Byron Sanders would be comparable.

High will block a shot, get a rebound or put back layup on hustle alone. That makes him greater than James/ D Hubert/ Sanders alone.

There is a LOT that goes into being a basketball player and some guys are very tall and learning how to be a basketball player. High will have to learn how to control himself and working further on coordination but you never say he was slacking on the court.

 

[DaveChapelle]

Mr. Chapelle doesn't want to admit that his assumption that High is the worst big to ever come through UNC is flawed.

I never said he was the worst big to ever come through UNC. Get a grip Karen.

 

[khalidha]

I never said he was the worst big to ever come through UNC. Get a grip Karen.

Is Karen my username? Sounds like you are getting sensitive. This is just board banter between two fans. It doesn't have to be more than that.

Roll the tape back on your own posts and tell me if I'm missing something. I was just trying to help you since you were misremembering that a bunch of guys struggle with many things in their first year. And I stick by the fact that Isaiah Hicks made the dumbest fouls in the history of Carolina basketball as a freshman. I made a whole term for him "What the Hick??!!!!" lol Brice was more like WTF???!!!!!

Joel James was more like "Ahhhh...bless his heart!" lol

 

[DSouthr]

Not sure how anyone could have a real position on High, I honestly don't know what we have in him. He drastically needed to put on some good weight and he needs development. I suspect he has a much higher ceiling that we have seen, it now is about how hard he is willing to work to realize what he wants. I do suspect he can become a solid jump shooter, seems to have the mental state to be aggressive as a scorer, I think he can block and alter shots in the paint, with added bulk I think he will be a better than expected defender. I suspect these things, don't and can't know for sure until we see him play.

WE should be very used to guys showing big time improvement from freshman to soph seasons, maybe we should expect a lot more than what we saw last season? I don't want to much put on him until he shows he can handle it but it is now time for him to get ready for some minutes that matter during this off season because we are going to need him.

 

[Kool1234567]

Is Karen my username? Sounds like you are getting sensitive. This is just board banter between two fans. It doesn't have to be more than that.

Roll the tape back on your own posts and tell me if I'm missing something. I was just trying to help you since you were misremembering that a bunch of guys struggle with many things in their first year. And I stick by the fact that Isaiah Hicks made the dumbest fouls in the history of Carolina basketball as a freshman. I made a whole term for him "What the Hick??!!!!" lol Brice was more like WTF???!!!!!

Joel James was more like "Ahhhh...bless his heart!" lol

Don’t worry about him…I have asked him ? And he doesn’t answer…Dude is a troll…

 

[DSouthr]

Only comparison made was that they were terrible as freshmen. Re: Desmond Hubert - He had negative motor on the court. That is one of the things that I saw out of High when he was on the court. We bring guys here to put in the work. If High puts in the work, he can eventually provide quality minutes off of the bench.
We will see what High does behind the scenes to make himself better.

Mr. Chapelle doesn't want to admit that his assumption that High is the worst big to ever come through UNC is flawed. There was even a Joel James comparison who would catch the ball near the basket (ALONE!!!) and turn the wrong way only to miss the shot. James/ D. Hubert comparisons are a non-starter IMO and ridiculous. I'm not even sure if Byron Sanders would be comparable.

High will block a shot, get a rebound or put back layup on hustle alone. That makes him greater than James/ D Hubert/ Sanders alone.

There is a LOT that goes into being a basketball player and some guys are very tall and learning how to be a basketball player. High will have to learn how to control himself and working further on coordination but you never say he was slacking on the court.

It is just so hard to compare because we have seen so little and a LOT of PHYSICAL development has to happen before we can really see. I don't like the Brice compare, Brice was a lot more athletic, Joel was MUCH MUCH thicker and very unskilled, and Desmond was literally scared to death any time the ball was in his hands. I think there is a touch less lengthy Tony Bradley in there some place. Kid does have a really strong motor and he isn't scared to take a shot at all, I think he will jump shoot better than Bradly did, maybe a freshman version of Pete Nance (what I assume a freshman Nance would have looked like, have not seen Nance as a freshman in college)?

 

[khalidha]

freshman version of Pete Nance (what I assume a freshman Nance would have looked like, have not seen Nance as a freshman in college)?

That's an interesting comparison for him. I don't know who is a good comparison at this point. I just like his motor right now. So many bigs don't have that...

 

[DSouthr]

That's an interesting comparison for him. I don't know who is a good comparison at this point. I just like his motor right now. So many bigs don't have that...

My friend, for me it is a bit more about his "level of aggression" on the court, kid has a bit of a mean streak in him and I promise ya, that is a very good thing to see in a Tar Heel kid. You add his motor to his touch of a tude and if those skills hone in we got a player.

 

[ChapelHeeled]

My friend, for me it is a bit more about his "level of aggression" on the court, kid has a bit of a mean streak in him and I promise ya, that is a very good thing to see in a Tar Heel kid. You add his motor to his touch of a tude and if those skills hone in we got a player.

Agreed...