If you're going to blame American military action/inaction for the current situation in Iraq and Syria and not even mention the initial clusterf%#@ invasion that created the instability and power vacuum in the first place, your assessment loses all credibility. If you're going to blame America for ISIS, there is more than enough blame to go around, and your attempt to make this exclusively an issue for Democrats only underscores my original post.
Paris
- Thread starter nctransplant
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Ask yourself what ISIS hopes to accomplish by carrying out attacks like this. To me it seems clear that they are trying to prevent assimilation of Muslims in other countries by driving a wedge between those countries' native and Muslim populations. The more that Muslims are ostracized, isolated, and oppressed in other societies, the easier they are to radicalize and recruit for ISIS's caliphate fever-dream. That's why, if you respond to these attacks by further isolating Muslims from society, you are playing right into the hands of radicals.
We could have just stayed out of Iraq altogether and kept propping-up Saddam. However, Saddam was starting to sell Iraqi oil in Euros and not US Dollars... that's a big no, no. That's a threat to "Freedom!"
I think his point is that one wouldn't consider KKK guys Christians because they don't follow Christian values. Thus, the same argument could be made for ISIS and their 'religion'. Maybe not though. He could clarify if that is not what he meant.
That's exactly what I meant. And, more importantly, I wouldn't even consider that all Christians are potentially future KKK members, or silently encouraging the KKK to grow, expand and succeed in their acts of terror. You can do a lot better by combating the terrorists, themselves and their objectives, not fearing the religion they claim to follow. I don't believe terrorists are serving any kind of faith in God, they're serving their fear and hatred and sense of superiority to their fellow human beings.
Well, with that logic, we should go all the way back to ancient Babylon and Assyria to analyze the genesis of the most current events in the region. Tell me, at what point does Obama own the problems arising from his inaction and retreat from the Middle East?
Total Fareed Zakaria BS. So, what would HiS do about this attack? Stick with the Obamanation's Hillary-ouly pre-Kerry-ous policies that has got us to this point?
Are you so f*cking partisan-butt-blind to realize that these peoples' contempt, and sworn hatred, and resolve for revenge goes back MUCH further than when Barack Obama entered the White House? This sh*t has been brewing since before Obama was even BORN! You are so immersed in your partisan ideology that you see this so one-sided and never the whole picture. American Foreign Policy in that region has created this for DECADES! Your side and their side are both equally complicit. The only difference might be that your side would prefer to just keep US troops installed all over the world until the end of time.
I would remind the village idiot that US involvement with Muslim thugs and murderers goes back much farther than Obama, that is undeniable. America's first foreign war involved the murderous Barbary Pirates who interdicted US trade with the nations of the Mediterranean in the late 1700-early 1800s, murdered US sailors, and tried to compel them to convert to Islam. Those who refused to renounce Christ were beheaded - no different than what ISIS does today. At least Thomas Jefferson was man enough to stand up to them, unlike Obamanation. So, I would say the Muslims have had it coming to them for a long long long time.
But, in modern times, Obama will forever be known as the pretender-POTUS - total empty suit - who pissed away Iraq, pissed away A-stan, pissed away Syria, pissed away Libya, responsible for allowing Iran breathing room to obtain nuclear weapons, and completely alienating our best and most loyal ally in the region in Israel. Thems be the facts, ya'll, and they are indisputable. The usual suspects like hom-noir, hom-'boy, and hom-strum can bitch all they want... Doesn't change the facts.
But, in modern times, Obama will forever be known as the pretender-POTUS - total empty suit - who pissed away Iraq, pissed away A-stan, pissed away Syria, pissed away Libya, responsible for allowing Iran breathing room to obtain nuclear weapons, and completely alienating our best and most loyal ally in the region in Israel. Thems be the facts, ya'll, and they are indisputable. The usual suspects like hom-noir, hom-'boy, and hom-strum can bitch all they want... Doesn't change the facts.
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Dennis Prager, is that you?
How did Obama "piss away" all of these countries? In what context? Are you one of these neo-cons who thinks that war, conquest and occupation by the US military is the answer to all the world's problems? Jesus would be proud. Freedom through the barrel of a gun.
ETA: Muslims would NEVER demand that you "renounce Christ." Get your religious stereotypes right. Muslims openly accept Jesus as "The Messenger of God." Muslims actually recognize Jesus as God's Messenger. They hold Jesus of Nazareth as a very sacred figure in their religion. The Jews are the ones who reject Christ.
Call it partisan or whatever, there is one poster here that has military experience. I'll take what he says rather than those that have not served.
Partisan or whatever, works. Yeah... let's go with the most indoctrinated person you can imagine. Amen! Someone who's entire existence is based on "follow orders." That sounds like a winner.
One thing that this forum provides me with is a never-ending gratitude for who I am.
I disagree.Your argument is a standard one that ignores the mindset and nuances of Islamic jihadist theology. Not saying it's entirely wrong but it's not fully informed either.
In Islam, jihad in terms of violence is permitted provided it brings honor and advancement to Islam. Lying and all sorts of normally un-Islamic things are also, including pretending to not be a Muslim or a jihadist, provided once again it's in the cause of Islam.
You want to know why ISIS started putting so many atrocities on youtube or one reason why? And why they always try to come up with something even more perverse and outrageous? Has to do with our response. When Al Qaeda bombed us, we responded with how wonderful Islam is. When our ambassador was murdered, the president of the United States went before the UN to proclaim the future does not belong to those that slander the prophet of Islam. In other words, from their perspective, he said the future belongs to Islam.
So with each new atrocity, the West has doubled down on promoting Islam. For the jihadists then, it's working. Islam is being honored and respected by the leaders of the non-Muslim west. We are teaching Islam as something good in our schools. We are condemning critics of Islam as racists or bigots. THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
And that's what they are getting. They are winning the jihad. The only way to get them to stop is to do the opposite of what we've been doing and turn their actions as a means to demean and disrespect Islam, to bring Islam into disrepute, to call it a rape religion and shame it. The other thing is to defeat them militarily. But just as important as stomping them is to bring Islam into shame, something akin to being a Nazi.
If that is what they produce, they will quit because in Islam, jihad can't be waged without the prospect of advancing Islam. In Islam, you have to peaceable unless you can win by being violent and winning is advancing Islam. There is no real morality here except the supremacy of Islam.
So the idea they want us to play into their hands by slamming Islam and so radicalizing others is largely incorrect, imho.
That's wrong. Though they believe Jesus was a prophet, they reject Him as Christ.
You have to do things:
1. Stomp them like we did with the Barbary pirates. If they lose badly, it's seen as Allah's will against them.
2. Discredit and shame Islam. ISIS should be promoted as what Islam really is in the West. Children should be taught in schools that this is what Islam is. Islam should be considered in the same vein as the Nazis or begin to. Shame for Muslims and Islam is also seen as a powerful rebuke from Allah. If the jihadists see they are bringing shame and discredit to Islam, their jihad will be seen as against Allah and wrong. if we promote Islam as we are doing, in response to attacks, they will think up worst ones to keep us doing more of the same.
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10.htm
Regardless, if they're following the Qu'ran then they're not going to behead someone for not renouncing Jesus. It would be similar to Christians hanging someone, or burning someone at the stake for not renouncing Moses. Of course, vengeful religious wackos could think up just about anything to justify their violence.
That's just not true. The Koran teaches to kill the Jews and Christians. You probably read something in the Koran that suggests otherwise but you are ignoring the later parts of the Koran where Mohammed reverses those teachings and says to kill them. The later parts are considered to trump the earlier, more peaceable parts and this is part of the fabric of Islamic theology. Mohammed when he lacked power, taught a more peaceable approach and then later when he had the upper hand, taught the opposite; hence part my lengthy explanation to why we need to make sure they feel they don't have the upper hand and to show them that jihad will just bring shame and dishonor to Islam as a whole.
Beheading Christians and others, raping them and all these atrocities is what Mohammed taught to do, both in the Koran, the sayings and traditions.
Fine... whatever you say. Keep hating them, they'll gladly keep hating you. You were all meant for each other.
Has nothing to do with hate. That's just your weak-minded smear due to your not being able to argue your worldview and point.
It's about reality. You can pretend there's nothing going on with Islam, no threat, just some twisted people hijacking it, or you can look at the real and present history of Islam.
Islam nearly overran and conquered Europe. These folks want to try again and expand even further. They are Muslims regardless of the fact most Muslims are not engaged in jihad.
You keep going back to this no matter how many times it is shown to be false. When you play guitar, do you just keep playing the same note over and over?
Well, I'm not afraid of dying. Hopefully, it's clean, fast and precise. Of course, I'm not worried about such a thing ever occurring, even remotely. It amazes me how people have allowed themselves to believe they might be beheaded by these people.
What would you think of a man that says Jesus was a prophet but he is a greater one and who goes around slaughtering people, taking women as sex slaves and such?
So why are you trying to defend Mohammed and Islam?
They may not but plenty of others are being beheaded. You apparently don't care, however.
this is where maobama's mind is: he referred to the slaughter in Paris as a "setback"!!! What?!?!?! A "setback"?!?!?!?!?!?! OMG.
Answer my question. The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim, right? Just answer that, pretty please.
I'm not trying to "defend Islam."
I see people all the time doing exactly what Muhammad did, what Jesus did, the Buddha, you name it. Then I see those that do what Joseph Smith did, what Warren Jeffs did, what Jim Jones did. History is literally bulging with people who do some of the most altruistic and insane sh*t you can imagine, and they try to justify it with their religious interpretations. Or, people who follow them try to create a religion around them. I'm not defending any of these people, or their followers, or even their victims. I'm certainly not living in fear of them. ISIS is political, not religious. It is personal, not religious. It is about power, not religion. I think it may take someone who does not subscribe to any religion to see this.
Strum, read this article and educate yourself, please. It's written by an atheist, I believe, if that helps.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/27/why-islam-is-more-violent-than-christianity-an-atheists-guide/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/27/why-islam-is-more-violent-than-christianity-an-atheists-guide/
Obviously the answer is no. Please take some time to educate yourself. The following article was written by an atheist, I believe. Mention that in hopes you will read it and develop some basic understanding of the differences in history and doctrine between Islam and Christianity, and even paganism in some areas.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/27/why-islam-is-more-violent-than-christianity-an-atheists-guide/
you cannot show anything to those that refuse to learn.
They could beat him to death in the middle of a mosque with a quran while chanting Islamic slogans in unison and he would claim it had nothing to do with Islam.
I'm not an atheist. i don't belong to a religious club either.
If the obvious answer is no, then you have quite a conundrum there, don't you?
To the article, I'm not remotely challenging the consensus that Islam has the market cornered on "Most Violent Religion" in the present-day. There have been countless examples of acts of terror where they claim to be Muslim. But, if you believe that Islam is inherently violent and destructive, and therefore Muslims who follow Islam are potential powder kegs, then you have the same conumdrum as above. When you get on your rant about how Islam is a plague upon the earth, where are you making room for Muslims to coexist? Apparently, according to you, they don't WANT to coexist. So, you'd better get them all rounded-up and exterminated. They'll probably put up more of a fight than the Jews in Europe. Pack a lunch.
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Read the article. Learn something about history and religious doctrine. No Christian really believes the only good person of some group is a dead person. If you knew anything about Christianity, you'd know that.
But you know very little about either Christianity, Islam or paganism and my guess is any religion. Nor do you know much about history in these areas. Also note the writer properly primarily credits Christian preachers with religious liberty here in America, not the enlightenment.
Somehow I doubt you'd forgive them. The best a Christian would say is he would by the grace of God.
Obviously, hom-strum refuses to even read an article about an atheist who addresses his point when he laments "I think it may take someone who does not subscribe to any religion to see this." So blinded by neutrality he is...
What a transparent and fake way to try to claim the moral high ground. The way you keep comparing yourself to Jesus is more than a little troubling and sick.
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