Phil Ford...Zion
- Thread starter WhitePhantoms
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Retired jerseys mean something special to the entire University Family! They are meant to honor a single player, but they are a source of pride, memory, and respect for ALL stakeholders. I agree with the idea that we either stand for something absolute or we cheapen the entire idea. (prostitute is a little hyperbolic)
Phil Ford is one of the greatest Tar Heels and I would argue the Greatest and this gesture is another example of why this is! Nobody who watched him play is surprised that he made the offer and none of us expect the U to take him up on it!
I respect those who think it is not such a big deal, but I honestly believe this issue helps define the divide within Tar Heel nation between the legacy of the DES days and the more recent vintage of fans! (BTW: this has nothing to do with how long you have been a fan)
On an aside: if you can't act like an adult, please don't participate. There is nothing "pathetic" about differing opinions, but it is small minded to resort to name calling just because you don't feel the same as others.
Phil Ford is one of the greatest Tar Heels and I would argue the Greatest and this gesture is another example of why this is! Nobody who watched him play is surprised that he made the offer and none of us expect the U to take him up on it!
I respect those who think it is not such a big deal, but I honestly believe this issue helps define the divide within Tar Heel nation between the legacy of the DES days and the more recent vintage of fans! (BTW: this has nothing to do with how long you have been a fan)
On an aside: if you can't act like an adult, please don't participate. There is nothing "pathetic" about differing opinions, but it is small minded to resort to name calling just because you don't feel the same as others.
Simply a figure of speech, excuse me for expressing how I feel. Might could have worded it a little better but THANKYOU TPFK... Nobody is loosing their minds it's just a little ridiculous that schools would even entertain this notion ( not saying we are) but at what point do you stop? I think we would be setting a dangerous precedent by doing that and to be honest I don't think Zion would ask for it at all. I'm glad their are people left who feel like I do and the whole point of a message board is for people to express opinions. You are entitled to yours and so am I but it takes a special kind to verbally mock someone for a simple hyperbole.
when 99 numbers have been retired then we can start over.
pick another number zion.
pick another number zion.
If Zion wants to come to UNC let him pick another number. If he earns a spot in the rafters next to Phil he can rest assured that nobody else will wear his number. I respect Phil for offering it and I am hoping Zion isn't so self centered as to accept such and offer. Those retired numbers are a reason to come to The Hill. Earn one and it's yours forever.
We did it for diamond... Just saying and she spurned us after word was adida$ came calling and mother and father we're sporting $ome new account$
Yes Diamond DeShields wore #23 her year at UNC. That number was retired for the great Charlotte Smith.
I completely understand why some would feel that if Phil was OK with it, we should allow it. I am not going to call you names or anything like that, we just disagree. No need to get ugly over a simple discussion.
Here's the issue for me, as stated by others. The retiring of a jersey should be seen as the ultimate honor. It shows the person who wore that number achieved great things. At a place like UNC, where so many great players have come through, such an honor carries even more weight. It shows a level of excellence even harder to achieve.
When a potential player wants to wear a retired number is signals a couple of red flags to me. First, that player either doesn't recognize the significance of the achievements of the player who came before him or doesn't care. Either way, that is a problem for me. Second, it does cheapen the legacy of the player who EARNED the right to have that number retired. The potential player hasn't earned anything at UNC and, in this case, most likely never will, but wants to wear a retired number because he thinks he is "special" or somehow deserves his own accolades.
I guess my issue is I see this way of thinking more and more with younger kids who haven't done anything to deserve what they or their families think they should get. Case in point, when discussing my youngest son's HS football team participating in 7 on 7's this past summer. Parent of a freshman player, who has never suited up for the team, wanted to know why JV players weren't invited to play in the 7 on 7's. Well, first off, he hasn't EARNED the right to play against the big boys. Didn't matter to this parent, she wanted her son to have everything the senior players had. Same parent didn't understand why the boosters wanted to give senior players a special gift and not the other players at the end of the year. Well, again, they have earned it. In this particular class, they really earned it because they are playing for their 4th coach in 4 years and have endured what no kid ever should.
While I have no doubt Phil would graciously sacrifice his retired number if it meant getting a recruit, I just don't ever think it is right to do so. Phil earned that honor and Zion and his family should honor it as well.
Here's the issue for me, as stated by others. The retiring of a jersey should be seen as the ultimate honor. It shows the person who wore that number achieved great things. At a place like UNC, where so many great players have come through, such an honor carries even more weight. It shows a level of excellence even harder to achieve.
When a potential player wants to wear a retired number is signals a couple of red flags to me. First, that player either doesn't recognize the significance of the achievements of the player who came before him or doesn't care. Either way, that is a problem for me. Second, it does cheapen the legacy of the player who EARNED the right to have that number retired. The potential player hasn't earned anything at UNC and, in this case, most likely never will, but wants to wear a retired number because he thinks he is "special" or somehow deserves his own accolades.
I guess my issue is I see this way of thinking more and more with younger kids who haven't done anything to deserve what they or their families think they should get. Case in point, when discussing my youngest son's HS football team participating in 7 on 7's this past summer. Parent of a freshman player, who has never suited up for the team, wanted to know why JV players weren't invited to play in the 7 on 7's. Well, first off, he hasn't EARNED the right to play against the big boys. Didn't matter to this parent, she wanted her son to have everything the senior players had. Same parent didn't understand why the boosters wanted to give senior players a special gift and not the other players at the end of the year. Well, again, they have earned it. In this particular class, they really earned it because they are playing for their 4th coach in 4 years and have endured what no kid ever should.
While I have no doubt Phil would graciously sacrifice his retired number if it meant getting a recruit, I just don't ever think it is right to do so. Phil earned that honor and Zion and his family should honor it as well.
I assume you're referencing me here. Next time have the courage to tag me instead of side swiping. Anyhow, I never called anyone pathetic, I simply stated that I find it pathetic that someone would get outraged about this to the point they think unc is "prostituting themselves". Doesn't mean I think the poster is pathetic or even that the opinion itself is, just that the hyperbole is well past normality for something so trivial.
Hopefully I've cleared that up and you can understand.
LOL. I think I understand you well! I try not to "tag" peeps (mostly because I don't even know what that means) because I don't like to get into a back and forth. I believe that I made my point clear and obviously didn't need to name you for you to know it was you so....but my main point is that we don't need to call either people of their ideas pathetic to refute them, some try to use intelligent argument instead.
BTW: How can one show "courage" on an anonymous internet board? (I will not respond any more to this, but will gladly engage your ideas about the Tar Heels in the future)
Back to the thread: LittleJohn framed the perfect response to this issue and I wish I had said it that well. I was unaware of the Diamond thing, but considering how it turned out it actually proved the greater point that Honor and Legacy must be held higher than any one recruit!
This is a quote from an article on why DD left UT!
"DeShields was the face of the Lady Vols’ worst stretch in program’s iconic history, and instead of handling it with grace and persistence, she avoided what it meant to be a Lady Vol and showed a lack of class. She ran from the program because her friends were gone, just like she ran to North Carolina because her friends were there."
BTW: How can one show "courage" on an anonymous internet board? (I will not respond any more to this, but will gladly engage your ideas about the Tar Heels in the future)
Back to the thread: LittleJohn framed the perfect response to this issue and I wish I had said it that well. I was unaware of the Diamond thing, but considering how it turned out it actually proved the greater point that Honor and Legacy must be held higher than any one recruit!
This is a quote from an article on why DD left UT!
"DeShields was the face of the Lady Vols’ worst stretch in program’s iconic history, and instead of handling it with grace and persistence, she avoided what it meant to be a Lady Vol and showed a lack of class. She ran from the program because her friends were gone, just like she ran to North Carolina because her friends were there."
Well count me in on those who take this way too serious evidently. And i dont apologize one freaking bit. All i will say is dean or roy woulda/would walk off the job before un retiring the number of arguably the greatest unc player ever in order to entice a recruit. That number represents a players legacy. It is not retired lightly. To trade it for some fking oad OR TO EVEN OFFER IT is an abomination. U dont like how serious i take it? Idgaf. Maybe its cause i’m an alum that was there when ford played. But i guarantee u coach williams opinion is a hell of a lot closer to mine than yours and i’ll leave it with that.
lol really you guys take it too personally. I already said I dont begrudge your opinion and I understand it completely. But- Its not YOUR number, its Phil Fords number. Its not UNC's number. Its Phil Fords. If he chooses he wants Zion to have it, thats his business, not the fans. I argue that he has way more right to give it away and feel good about it than any fan feeling ashamed of it.
But again, thats just my perspective and I can certainly see how you could disagree, although an adult getting bent out of shape( to the extent that its coming across in some posts on this thread) about a jersey number that really has nothing to do with them is a bit much, in my opinion. (although outrage is..all the rage these days lol)Anyways, thats my last post on it.
But again, thats just my perspective and I can certainly see how you could disagree, although an adult getting bent out of shape( to the extent that its coming across in some posts on this thread) about a jersey number that really has nothing to do with them is a bit much, in my opinion. (although outrage is..all the rage these days lol)Anyways, thats my last post on it.
I do have to disagree with you here. It isn't Phil's number, it is UNC's number, he just wore it while playing at UNC. He could have requested to wear that number, but the decision was ultimately Dean's as to whether or not he got to. And since anyone who grew up watching Phil play knows how much he loved Dean Smith, I would find it very hard to believe he would feel that the number was "his" anyway.
The honor of having the number retired was bestowed on him by UNC as a means of saying thank you for him playing here. It was bestowed on him by people who wanted to recognize his greatness and have it forever stand as a reminder of his time here. If we are to allow any of those whose numbers are hanging in the rafters to do whatever they want with them, then why bother putting them up there in the first place? Any of them could choose to "sell" their number to a potential recruit someday if that were the case. (should the NCAA change it's policy, that is) Or they could say they want to be able to give it to whomever they want to each year as a means of making them be the person responsible for getting the best recruits. Then it might become a war between former players to see whose jersey number means the most to future recruits. See where I am going here?
Sorry, I may be old school, but I just don't see anything good coming from allowing retired numbers to be passed around like candy to guys who haven't even set foot on campus. It puts the player ahead of the program, which is the antithesis of what Dean built this program around and what Roy wants to preserve.
Actually it is UNC's number because that's the name on the front of the jersey. Yes Ford wore it and it was retired because of what Ford did, but at the end of the day, North Carolina is on the front and the school comes before the player.
Had I known LittleJon was going to say the same thing I did but better, I wouldn't have posted. lol
I remember the University of Michigan football team having an idea a few years ago where current players "honored" past UM players by wearing their retired number for a season. The majority of their fans hated it, and it doesn't occur anymore. I don't think it lasted more than one season.
Ugh, you again.
Here's the deal, Ford is a legend, and to some degree, I agree that he should have some say in it. And I love that Phil offered. That's who he is and that's why he's revered. And I would hate for the school to have to decide this. This is 100% on Zion. And Zion should have the class to say, "Phil, thanks for the offer but I could never wear your number as I'm just an unproven high school kid that aspires to accomplish the things that you have. I respectfully decline your offer. If I choose Carolina, I'll be happy to wear whatever number the school sees fit to give me. I just want to be a part of something special." That's the type of kids I like. I know you're probably going to poast some comment where you make excuses for the entitled culture of high school athletes today. And you'll probably make some reference to me being some old "get off my lawn" type or whatever other lame millennial speak you kids have. I could tell from the "Joel Berry acted irresponsibly" thread that you and I just a'int going to see eye to eye on pretty much anything. So save your response for someone that might read it and care.
For those saying it's "unc's number", well ok we can go that route. My point still stands. The people at unc (Phil ford, Roy) if they decide collectively Zion can have the number, then I still say that comes way before what any fan thinks or especially feels about it. To me that's pretty irrelevant.
Not that a fan thinking it's "bad" is wrong, just that at the end of the day the ones who are actually involved in the basketball program not having an issue with it and encouraging it to me carries way more weight.
Not that a fan thinking it's "bad" is wrong, just that at the end of the day the ones who are actually involved in the basketball program not having an issue with it and encouraging it to me carries way more weight.
I don't really care one way or the other whether they let Zion (or anyone else) wear a retired number. Let me reiterate that so that @bax4444 doesn't get his undies in a bundle and lump me in with his pathetic crowd (or pathetic opinion, or not pathetic opinion but pathetic notion of an opinion, or whatever that whole backtracking was) - I'm fine if they give him #12. But it's UNC's number, not Phil's. Whatever they want should ultimately be what happens (but you know they would defer to Phil).
I just think that if they take down a retired number, they should take them all down and not retire numbers anymore. If a retired number is only retired until someone comes along that wants to wear it, how is it any different than any other number? Might as well just unretire them all if you want future players to be able to pick whatever number they want. And I wouldn't care if they didn't have retired numbers (although it does bring nostalgia looking at the retired numbers hanging there).
I just think that if they take down a retired number, they should take them all down and not retire numbers anymore. If a retired number is only retired until someone comes along that wants to wear it, how is it any different than any other number? Might as well just unretire them all if you want future players to be able to pick whatever number they want. And I wouldn't care if they didn't have retired numbers (although it does bring nostalgia looking at the retired numbers hanging there).
Maaan. Not that its even important but the lack of even trying to comprehend irks me a bit. If you actually went back and read, I stated that someone saying UNC was "prostituting itself" was hilariously pathetic. No where did I say that someone thinking zion getting fords number was not a great idea was pathetic, nor did I attack anyone personally. My thinking is/was that gettin that fired up about something relatively inane was rather childish.. There was no backtracking, just me clarifying myself so that a post like yours wouldnt happen...but oh well.
Also, you make some good points but I have to ask..why is everyone just assuming that if Zion gets his number it invalidates all retired jerseys or that theres "no point" in having jerseys retired anymore? Like it still would come down to an individuals choice whether theyd want to let someone "borrow" their number, and it most likely wouldnt even happen again. Its not like Fords number wouldnt still be right up in the rafters after Zion got done playing here.
Right, but then I would consider that number to be an "honored" number. It's really only retired if it will never be worn again. Once you have one "retired" number worn again, it shows that those numbers are up for grabs if the situation is right.
At that point, keep the numbers up there as honored, but I think calling them retired is disingenuous, since you would have proven that they aren't actually retired.
would you retire a jersey of someone who only played at UNC for 1 season even if he got POY?
I will pose the same question about Bagley since this is an actual possibility. I'll hang up and listen.
Maybe we could offer to change the name of the dean smth center to the “zion dome”. Its just a name.
Wonder how he feels about sky blue. Maybe he likes red better
Wonder how he feels about sky blue. Maybe he likes red better
Yes. The criteria to have your jersey retired is to win POY, nothing else.
Actually yes, being named NPOY is one of the qualifiers for retirement of a jersey.
To have your jersey retired, a player must win one of the following player of the year awards:
Oscar Robertson Trophy (formerly known as the USBWA National Player of the Year)
National Association of Basketball Coaches Player of the Year
Sporting News Player of the Year
John R. Wooden Award
Naismith College Player of the Year
Oscar Robertson Trophy (formerly known as the USBWA National Player of the Year)
National Association of Basketball Coaches Player of the Year
Sporting News Player of the Year
John R. Wooden Award
Naismith College Player of the Year
Well, you wouldn't have to pull it down --- that is just a metaphor Phil used --- and I don't see the harm. Retired numbers are to honor the player, so I have no issue with someone else wearing the number if the original honoree himself is cool with it.
He would have to graduate as well since this is a criteria for duke players getting their number retired. Otherwise a guy like Elton Brand would have his number retired.
Sounds like there won't be more retired numbers in Durham anytime soon.
Sounds like there won't be more retired numbers in Durham anytime soon.
Good one. I would expect more "indefinite" suspensions though.
