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Preseason Rankings: AP vs Pomeroy

What Would Jesus Do?

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Nov 28, 2010
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Just for fun, I thought I'd post this comparison before the season begins. Might be good for a laugh later on.

It's my understanding that Pomeroy integrates subjective measures into his algorithm-based ratings early in the season. I imagine the portal was a big factor. After some number of games the subjective bits go away and it's all algorithm. Or something like that.

RankAPPomeroy
01KansasHouston
02AlabamaDuke
03UConnAuburn
04HoustonAlabama
05Iowa StUConn
06GonzagaKansas
07DukeIowa St
08BaylorArizona
09UNCGonzaga
10ArizonaPurdue
11AuburnBaylor
12TennesseeCreighton
13Texas A&MTennessee
14PurdueUNC
15CreightonTexas Tech
16ArkansasTexas A&M
17IndianaCincinnati
18MarquetteTexas
19TexasSt John's
20CincinnatiVillanova
21FloridaBYU
22UCLAMarquette
23KentuckyIllinois
24MississippiClemson
25RutgersArkansas
26*IllinoisUCLA
27*St John'sDayton
28*XavierFlorida
29*Texas TechOregon
30*Wake ForestXavier

*The 26-30 teams for AP are the top "others receiving votes" in order.
 
You are a great source of information to many of us here. I've just never understood your need to belittle other sources of information.
Look, I'm not attacking you, I am (quite properly) calling out an "analytics" site that is "analyzing" something that hasn't happened yet.
These things are not in a vacuum. For example, that jackass Katz is already spouting off as to how the ACC is supposedly once again "down".
Seriously?
Again, the first shot hasn't been taken and invented narratives are already out there, and this junk affects ACC tourney bids and seeding (and thus, recruiting), whether or not some want to admit it.

PLUS... if you want to get to the nitty-gritty of the math, using arbutrary assumptions as baselines invariably skews the numbers.
pomeroy is what it is --- it ain't all that --- but should least wait for actual games to set their statistical baselines.
 
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Katz is lazy and a compete putz!

He wouldn't know a story if it walked up and smacked him in the face! I have never understood why someone with so little actual journalistic integrity can rise so far. He simply makes things up or gloms onto someone else's ideas!
 
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I'm of the opinion that all pre season rankings aren't worth much. It's fun to think of the outlook for teams coming in to a season, but to rank them before a meaningful game has been played isn't much to me.
 
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Look, I'm not attacking you, I am (quite properly) calling out an "analytics" site that is "analyzing" something that hasn't happened yet.
These things are not in a vacuum. For example, that jackass Katz is already spouting off as to how the ACC is supposedly once again "down".
Seriously?
Again, the first shot hasn't been taken and invented narratives are already out there, and this junk affects ACC tourney bids and seeding (and thus, recruiting), whether or not some want to admit it.

PLUS... if you want to get to the nitty-gritty of the math, using arbutrary assumptions as baselines invariably skews the numbers.
pomeroy is what it is --- it ain't all that --- but should least wait for actual games to set their statistical baselines.
My understanding from something I read on his site years back is that his preseason rankings used to be based mainly on his ratings of returning players, coach ratings, and school tradition. In an era when players weren't moving around very much, that sounds like a pretty good foundation.

Obviously it's lacking in accounting for new recruiting classes, and I can't remember if he had some way of incorporating those data. And, of course, the portal era means tracking all those extra moves.

Seems to me Pomeroy's approach is a pretty smart way of looking at it. For those of us without your skills, it gives us a leg up on the coming season while we wait for the actual games, and for folks like you to weigh in.
 
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I'm of the opinion that all pre season rankings aren't worth much. It's fun to think of the outlook for teams coming in to a season, but to rank them before a meaningful game has been played isn't much to me.
It's not so much the precise rankings - which, if you want to be a stickler, you could argue are always crap until the season ends - as it is the relative positions of the teams.

Who here doesn't check the major polls? If you never do, great, that's your choice. But I'd bet most of us do.

Do we check them to know what's "true"? Of course not. We check them because they give us info about teams, including teams we don't follow closely. Plus, let's face it, we also check them to see how we're doing - since we're almost always in those polls.

It's something to look forward to. It's fuel for discussion. It's fun.

What I like about Pomeroy's rankings is that he gives us that info and that fun for all the teams, not just those in the big polls.

And, of course, he's darn good at what he does. Which probably explains why sports journalists seem to be referencing him on a regular basis. Who am I to argue?
 
It's not so much the precise rankings - which, if you want to be a stickler, you could argue are always crap until the season ends - as it is the relative positions of the teams.

Who here doesn't check the major polls? If you never do, great, that's your choice. But I'd bet most of us do.

Do we check them to know what's "true"? Of course not. We check them because they give us info about teams, including teams we don't follow closely. Plus, let's face it, we also check them to see how we're doing - since we're almost always in those polls.

It's something to look forward to. It's fuel for discussion. It's fun.

What I like about Pomeroy's rankings is that he gives us that info and that fun for all the teams, not just those in the big polls.

And, of course, he's darn good at what he does. Which probably explains why sports journalists seem to be referencing him on a regular basis. Who am I to argue?
I keep up with the NET standings during the season, since that is what the committee uses. As a kid, I paid attention to AP or coaches polls, nowadays it always surprises me when people get a reaction from those polls one way or the other.
 
I keep up with the NET standings during the season, since that is what the committee uses. As a kid, I paid attention to AP or coaches polls, nowadays it always surprises me when people get a reaction from those polls one way or the other.
Can't argue with looking at NET. I do, too, at some point in the season. But I've been following Pomeroy for many years and like how he does things. To me, NET is basically a less-full-featured copy of Pomeroy. But it does have the important advantage of being used by the committee, as you pointed out. Unsurprisingly, they agree a lot.

Pomeroy is particularly user-friendly early on in that he gives us a measure that matches up pretty well with the quad ratings. We could figure out some of that ourselves, but he's done the work for us.

So, for example, at this too-early stage of the season, we can already see that we will face 6-7 A-rated (~Quad 1) contests before the new year (depending on our late-round foes in Maui). Duke faces 6. Wake 6. NC State 4. Clemson 3. Pitt 2.

I like having the extra data. I like seeing it change as the season plays out. It's part of the fun of being a fan. Other people don't care. That's fine. But why belittle the work product or people who like using it?
 
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I don't like nor respect any of these metrics. I do not denigrate any people who work on them or use them, however. I would rather go back to the eye test days than trust an algorithm that I do not understand! I find myself in disagreement more often than agreement, but I do believe they are somewhat more accurate by the time conference play starts. Pre-season polls are virtually worthless to me apart from the fact that they show who peeps respect or expect to be good this season! For example, how can metrics determine if puke's newcomer laden team will be better than UNC's more advanced leadership? One must taste to determine if an apple is better than an orange!
 
Can't argue with looking at NET. I do, too, at some point in the season. But I've been following Pomeroy for many years and like how he does things. To me, NET is basically a less-full-featured copy of Pomeroy. But it does have the important advantage of being used by the committee, as you pointed out. Unsurprisingly, they agree a lot.

Pomeroy is particularly user-friendly early on in that he gives us a measure that matches up pretty well with the quad ratings. We could figure out some of that ourselves, but he's done the work for us.

So, for example, at this too-early stage of the season, we can already see that we will face 6-7 A-rated (~Quad 1) contests before the new year (depending on our late-round foes in Maui). Duke faces 6. Wake 6. NC State 4. Clemson 3. Pitt 2.

I like having the extra data. I like seeing it change as the season plays out. It's part of the fun of being a fan. Other people don't care. That's fine. But why belittle the work product or people who like using it?
Agreed, I like pomeroy.
 
Preseason polls are irrelevant and preseason opinions are largely irrelevant overall. I do find it interesting that there is a fair amount of disparity to UNC's ranking among the analytics sites (15th on KenPom, 5th on BartTorvik, 10th on Haslam).

BartTorvik was by far the most accurate last year in terms of player projections. They predicted a fairly modest year out of Cadeau last season.

There's an argument to be made whether or not preseason polls should exist anywhere to begin with. But at the same time, college basketball needs more eyes on it, not fewer eyes. So if some preseason polls or some preseason analytics polls gets more people talking about it, it's a good thing for college basketball.
 
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Is it just me or is this an especially testy bunch of posters today? LOL It is kind of odd, we had a great basketball game yesterday, our football team ACTUALLY beat a conference team on the road and yet the few threads seem to be testy?

Without reading the posts I was going to tag this one with my standard I don't really care where we are ranked early, our ranking matters little to me until we get thru the first half of the conference slate, then to me it begins to have real post season seeding effects. But now I hope I have not pissed off someone as testy as things seem today? Lighten up guys!
 
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Mommy, the mean man was talking about my favorite poll! He said it was a poopy-head so I hit him!

Son, mean people will say mean things, but we shouldn't let them bring us down to their level! We're Family, son, and no poll or meanie can make us change Our Way!
 
I think polls are pretty meaningless until after the Thanksgiving tournaments. The SEC gets a huge bump in football every year because they get so many teams ranked in preseason polls, so a loss to one does not hurt as much. The ACC once upon a time actually got the same benefit in basketball (you young people may not believe that but there was a time best basketball conference was even debatable).

I read somewhere that pomeroy is simply about the math, and his formulas do not take game location into account. I think that is a huge negative. Under his formula if UNC beats Kansas at KU and dook beats them in HIS by the same score, both wins count the same.

I have always been very skeptical of those algorithms. As someone once said, "there are lies, damn lies and statistics".
 
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I think polls are pretty meaningless until after the Thanksgiving tournaments. The SEC gets a huge bump in football every year because they get so many teams ranked in preseason polls, so a loss to one does not hurt as much. The ACC once upon a time actually got the same benefit in basketball (you young people may not believe that but there was a time best basketball conference was even debatable).

I read somewhere that pomeroy is simply about the math, and his formulas do not take game location into account. I think that is a huge negative. Under his formula if UNC beats Kansas at KU and dook beats them in HIS by the same score, both wins count the same.

I have always been very skeptical of those algorithms. As someone once said, "there are lies, damn lies and statistics".
According to his website, he does factor in home court.
"I add 1.4% to the home team’s OE and visiting team’s DE, and subtract the same amount from the opposite parameters."

I'm more data driven. So I find it hard to understand why there's any angst against an analytics site like KenPom. I think it's valuable to have tempo based statistics. A team that uses 28 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG vs a team that uses 20 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG... That's a huge difference that prior to more evolved analytics sites, that difference wasn't common knowledge. So I like that there's a place that gives you a team's numbers based on their possessions as opposed to based on how many games they played.

There's also very clear trends that teams that are really good in certain analytics categories have the best chance to win it all. Teams have to be in the top 20 in OFF and DEF efficiency. And teams usually have to play within a certain range of tempo. UNC is always an outlier on the tempo so apart from them, fast teams do not win national championships. In fact in recent years, extremely slow paced teams have won regularly.

So I like that there's this information out there because you should always question yourself when you're running a team or any kind of business. I've brought it up here that maybe playing super super fast isn't great in today's college basketball. For that, I'm simply following the trends of recent college basketball.
 
"A team that uses 28 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG vs a team that uses 20 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG... That's a huge difference that prior to more evolved analytics sites, that difference wasn't common knowledge."

Yes it is a huge difference BUT 100% wrong that it wasn't common knowledge! Any coach or knowledgeable fan worth his salt can see the difference between a team that holds the ball to limit possessions and a team that limits scoring by playing suffocating D! Holding the ball was designed to cover up either a defensive, athletic, or matchup deficiency. It shortens the game and highlights execution over skill or depth! Nothing wrong with figuring it out either way, but we definitely don't need the advanced analytics to figure it out! AND doesn't the algorithm assume all home sites provide the same advantage? This is obviously false! I get how the metrics are fascinating/informative for some, but I just don't need them! I need plain stats like FT/FG %, turnovers, fouls, etc. The most advanced stat I pay attention to is Points per Possession, lol. But I don't ever need to know what OE or DE even mean! Don't get me started on Ortg or whatever! I can analyze stats, even advanced ones since data analysis is a huge part of my job, but I just don't see them adding value in sports for me!
 
PLUS... if you want to get to the nitty-gritty of the math, using arbutrary assumptions as baselines invariably skews the numbers.
I suspect Pomeroy would argue with the "arbitrary" part of your comment.

The respected field of Baysian statistics involves using assumptions when actual data aren't available yet.
 
I suspect Pomeroy would argue with the "arbitrary" part of your comment.

The respected field of Baysian statistics involves using assumptions when actual data aren't available yet.
I'm quite familiar, as I have a math degree. Assumptions can be based on observable data as preconditions or they can be arbitrary. The assumptions in question here are far more arbitrary than observable and thus, speculative. This issue is exacerbated by modern roster flux.

In other words, let some games play out.
 
"A team that uses 28 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG vs a team that uses 20 seconds of the shot clock and allows 55 PPG... That's a huge difference that prior to more evolved analytics sites, that difference wasn't common knowledge."

Yes it is a huge difference BUT 100% wrong that it wasn't common knowledge! Any coach or knowledgeable fan worth his salt can see the difference between a team that holds the ball to limit possessions and a team that limits scoring by playing suffocating D! Holding the ball was designed to cover up either a defensive, athletic, or matchup deficiency. It shortens the game and highlights execution over skill or depth! Nothing wrong with figuring it out either way, but we definitely don't need the advanced analytics to figure it out! AND doesn't the algorithm assume all home sites provide the same advantage? This is obviously false! I get how the metrics are fascinating/informative for some, but I just don't need them! I need plain stats like FT/FG %, turnovers, fouls, etc. The most advanced stat I pay attention to is Points per Possession, lol. But I don't ever need to know what OE or DE even mean! Don't get me started on Ortg or whatever! I can analyze stats, even advanced ones since data analysis is a huge part of my job, but I just don't see them adding value in sports for me!
Offensive efficiency is basically the same as points-per-possession. But instead of points per one possession, OE and DE are points per 100 possessions. Adjusted is adjusted to the quality of the opponent. But they're basically the same thing.

I don't think any of the reputable advanced metric sites factor in Ortg or Drtg in their team rankings.

Also, sure it's different playing at Kansas vs playing at Western Illinois. I'm guessing he took the totality of the 300+ home courts in the country and found a median point that made sense in his formula. Sure there are home courts that may provide you 3 points, which is on the high end. There are others that provide you 0 points of advantage. So I'm guessing that's where he came to a number somewhere in between. I don't think that's ridiculously unreasonable. Also, everyone's perception of homecourt might be different too.

It's also been somewhat proven that field goal percentage is a stat that's far less meaningful unless you know the complete context. For example, when UNC lost to Duke in 2012. UNC shot 49% from the field and Duke shot 43% overall. But the field goal percentages were basically irrelevant because Duke made 14/36 3s and UNC shot 1/6 from 3. When you are out 3'd to that level, it makes the field goal percentage far less meaningful.

I will say I think analytics has taken a lot of the mystery out of sports. But I don't blame analytics for that. Analytics discovered in baseball that strikeouts aren't the worst thing in baseball offensively and there's really no difference between a strikeout and a popout. One just looks worse on the box score because you don't categorize a pop out in the box score. Also, oftentimes, a strikeout is a much more productive out than grounding into a double play. But unfortunately that has turned baseball into a 3 outcome sport and I don't think that's necessarily good for that sport. But that's not the fault of analytics. That's the fault of the sport.

I'm not a particularly big fan of basketball becoming a 3PT shooting contest. But again, not really the fault of analytics. If you have a shot that's worth 50% more, that better become a main weapon in your offense.

But back to the main point of this thread. The preseason polls are all meaningless. But I don't think it's a bad thing to get some attention paid of college basketball. If that means KenPom throws up their preseason poll, then fine. Who cares? It will be decided on the court anyways.
 
As a coach, I like PPP because it gives me an idea about our offense in real time. FG% is important to me because it helps me determine who gets to shoot that 3 or who I want at the line or who I want to take that last shot. It is all tempered by flow of the game and looking into the players' eyes too. As a fan, I knew I didn't want EC or Seth taking 3s because they lacked confidence. (I do now) I used Ortg because I have no idea what it means. I too did well in math through calculus and advanced statistics (NCSU Chem E major at the time) so I respect the science, but I don't need it to make decisions or set expectations in bball! I don't like the fact that analytics is convincing football coaches to go for it on 4th down so much either lately! I recognize part of it is I'm old school but it feels like peeps want to take human out of the equation and that ain't good!
 
I'm quite familiar, as I have a math degree. Assumptions can be based on observable data as preconditions or they can be arbitrary. The assumptions in question here are far more arbitrary than observable and thus, speculative. This issue is exacerbated by modern roster flux.

In other words, let some games play out.
No one is arguing that the ratings won't be better after we've seen a bunch of games.

What some seem to be saying, though, is that preseason ratings have no value at all, no matter how well-thought-out. That's clearly wrong.
 
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