Quick stuff (dook game)...

[HoopsCoach42]

...and I pretty much had most of this written by the under-8 of the 1st half --- and then the 2nd half proved my point.

- By the 3rd possession it was painfully clear that they had scouted and were anticipating all of our predictable horizontal actions. Their guys were simply ignoring anything vertical and opening up to passing lanes.

- And when we got 1/5 and/or 5/1 mismatches on like 8 different occasions before the under-8, instead of letting those guys take advantage, we've got other guys running around in semi-crcles or crossing the ball-handler and getting in the damn way. For pete's sake, opponents can see our "zoom" actions coming down I-40.

- But there's a LARGER question: Why in the hell would you start our smallest iineup against the biggest team in D1 unless you're gonna PRESS? And why use mid-post doubles on Flagg when it just opens up shooters without stressing the ball to any degree?

- Those questions were made even more poignant when, in the second half --- LO AND BEHOLD --- we legitmately went MULTIPLE, mixing Zone and 40, and mostly successfully. Of course we stubbornly waited until precious minutes had ticked off. Still, we beat them by 5 in the 2nd half and believe me, dook was NOT coasting. I'm not into moral victories --- I'm into LEARNING --- and all I can hope is the staff damn well learned something for the rest of the schedule.

- We also eventually played our best offensive ball late when we started using VERTICAL initiations from the key. Some of the actions that got Drake in space for a vertical drive, for example, worked very well.

- But back to the defensive end, look, us trying to be stubbornly in Man vs dook is a loser. For one thing, bless his heart, there is nobody in the dook rotation that RJ can guard --- and hoo-buddy, they exploited that every chance they got.

- Finally, when I wrote that pissed-off abbreviated post after PItt, I neglected to mention the point that this team thus far has had NO IDENTITY. I did notice that @gunslingerdick picked up my slack in the replies and he was spot on. And we've also got Frosh wings making Frosh mistakes on top of our size deficit. My point is, we at least got a glimpse of what this team's identitiy SHOULD be --- be MULTPILE and aggressive from the tip, and on offense, stop with all the called weaves, etc and let play-makers make plays TOWARD the rim. Moreover, make teams guard US in the inevitable mismatches we can create.

- Oh, and one last thing --- once we started showing a defensive identity, ain't it amazing how suddenly the size deficit didn't matter quite as much when we weren't a damn SITTING DUCK anymore, huh? And I'm gonna tell ya, Wash and Lubin started holding their own in the trenches. And I'm also gonna mention that Tyson acquitted himself quite well, and helped mitigate the size thing a bit.

Anyway, there it is. This OUGHTA be a epiphany moment for Hubert. I mean, geez, you gotta know we're starting any game at HIS with a 10-point deficit just from the "treatment" we're gonna get (and did), so why put yourself at a further disadvantage by playing right into their strengths? Fact is, we have personnel who were MADE to be multiple and aggressive --- NOT to be stuck in Man defense. On the other end it's about NOT making ourselves predictable and easy to guard. Stop dicking around horizontally on the perimeter and stress the damn rim. We've got a week to learn. Will we? We'll see...

The starting lineup baffled me too. A buddy texted me before the game about who we put on Flagg, and I told him it had to be Powell or Withers, then we commenced to starting 4 guards. I just keep scratching my head at a lot of the decisions this staff continues to make, or not make.

 

[gary-7]

If you had to choose, if it was your call to make who's number you dialing?

Because I'm not saying this in a negative way toward you but you and also few others here like to call any coach or team that isn't Carolina cheaters or used car salesmen.

So honest question who is your guy?

False premise. I do no such thing. If I call any coaches out, that is because they deserve it.

 

[gary-7]

I just want some insight into what thug ball is, I'm assuming what is called thug ball is simply physical basketball. A team that is physical is a tought team JMO. Every good team needs a little bit of a nastiness or attitude to them are effective.

Tyler Hansbrough was one of the most physical basketball players I have ever seen we loved him. Matter of fact he would have been textbook for a team like Detroit in the 80's.

You might want to read what you write. Yeah, Tyler was physical, but not in the way the euphemism is too often thrown around. He didn't grab, hold, knee and undercut as a shortcut for playing actual defense --- but he was forunately physical enough to play thru the myriad opponents who tried that crap on him.

 

[notashelbyfan]

You might want to read what you write. Yeah, Tyler was physical, but not in the way the euphemism is too often thrown around. He didn't grab, hold, knee and undercut as a shortcut for playing actual defense --- but he was forunately physical enough to play thru the myriad opponents who tried that crap on him.

True but what and team taking any thing they can get to have an advantage if they can get away with it isn't necessary wrong. It's the refs job to make the calls and if they arent then IMO it good coaching to be doing it.

But back to my initial question it's your call on the next coach who's phone number you dialing?

 

[gary-7]

True but what and team taking any thing they can get to have an advantage if they can get away with it isn't necessary wrong. It's the refs job to make the calls and if they arent then IMO it good coaching to be doing it.

But back to my initial question it's your call on the next coach who's phone number you dialing?

I have no surprise that's what you want, which suggests you might've been happier all these years pulling for a darker shade of blue where getting away with stuff and relying on refs has been their M.O. for decades.

IIRC, Dean Smith and Roy Williams somehow managed to be pretty good coaches without resorting to those shortcuts.

Oh, you want an answer? OK, my first move tomorrow as AD would be to go down our bench starting with Hubert and ask which one of you is willing and able to stop this reinventing-the-wheel foolishness and start coaching the Carolina basketball you were taught?

 

[DSouthr]

My perception of coach Kelvin Sampson from afar was always very high, and continues to be in regards to his coaching acumen.
Living in Southern Indiana though I have relationships with Indiana alumni and donors, as well as people within the inner circle that paint a much more harrowing picture of Sampson off the court.
He ran a Rouge basketball program at IU, deficient of many rules and ethics we hold as standards at Carolina.
His players were allowed to skirt rules and many were unbecoming college students.
I don't know how much Sampson learned from his time at Indiana and what he allowed to take place, let alone his obvious breaking of NCAA rules. ( Those seem silly in light of what has been allowed last 20 years) but he seems to run a tight ship at Houston.
From afar of course
Taking this into consideration and Sampsons age, I would be a hard pass on him as our next coach.
I think his age and all that Houston has invested as far as facilities and such in the last few years, he isn't going anywhere.
I think you would be wasting that hour of your life.

Clearly, if it were up to me BEFORE I made a phone call to a perspective coach I would do my job as the AD. I would explore any negatives that exist and see what level of truths that may exist, of course if those damning items to have legs it would effect my decision. But I don't believe in being guilty by the allegation, I believe in guilty by the evidence. Do you, for example hold Roy guilty of running a program based on his players taking fake classes?

 

[notashelbyfan]

False premise. I do no such thing. If I call any coaches out, that is because they deserve it.

Seriously? Sounds like you're the only racist ITT. The word "thug" WAY predates any connotation of race you might want to attach to it.

There's a difference between toughness and thuggery. I want our guys to be tough but when they start taking cheap shots like Arkansas that's when I stop watching.

Dave, my eyes don't lie. Never have, never will.

BTW: He started two NCAA games that year after the Creighton thuggery cost us Butter:
1 win - 32 minutes, 6 assists, 1 steal, 0 turnovers
1 loss - 28 minutes, 7 assists, 1 steal, 0 turnovers
Literally the only thing he didn't do well was shoot the ball (the "wide-eyed frosh" thing --- he got some nice open looks), but he was 4-4 from the FT line.

...to WVU and their thug-ball.
Seriously, at one point they literally fouled a FT shooter.

From an analytical standpoint, SFA's Press Offense was very well executed and that Walkup dude can flat play.

Screw that thug. I watched him get away with assault on MJ off the ball in that awful 84 game. As a basketball player he made a good hockey goon.

Yep. Phelps is the gold standard for defense at that position, and although not much of a scoring threat he ran the show quite well. When that BC thug Abrams cheap-shotted him in 94 it took away our shot at back-to-back Nattys.

- Speaking of which, Dana Altman coached a crappy game and still got rewarded. Coming down the stretch he relied on his NBA iso garbage, and all that got him was late shot-clock throw-ups or violations. Somehow though, they either made enough bad shots or got long rebounds.


2. UF is f***ing dirty. That brand of thug-ball will be the ruination of college basketball if it is encouraged. Last night on one play their PG chest-checked Koennig (which is supposed to be an automatic call these days) 3 times before he crossed half-court --- then later, when he actually got called for it one time, he barked at the ref. Good grief --- have some damned shame.

Sorry, but f*** Nova and their thug-ball. I'll just pull for the other side of the bracket.

That being said, pro leagues are faddish, i.e., if something works for one then others start trying it. I'm sure many remember the NBA fad of the 80s of starting a semi-skilled train-wreck at the 4 --- Rambis with the Lakers, Mahorn with the Pistons, hell the Sixers even drafted that thug Iavaroni from UVA. In other words, starting a goon PF became a "thing".

Pardner, you couldn't have nailed that any more accurately. I remember that all too well. And you're right, they aggressively lobbied to import that thug-ball into the NCAA officiating regime.

Oh, and speaking of refs getting the memo, I feel ya, Izzo. The refs actully called dook for some of their jersey-grabbing shenanigans, and lo and behold, MSU went up 5 late, but after a stern lecture I don't think the zebras got one right after that.

Man, I can only hope the negative publicity forces the NCAA to have a come-to-Jesus moment about officiating. And the whole damn state of Texas has become the home of thug-ball. Hell, UT is making Purdue of the Big 10 look "soft". LMAO.

And to think, Cronin was part of the thug-ball camp at Cincy. Said it in the other thread, UNC-UCLA should have been the Natty game.

SMDH.

- I've watched OSU before and they were as advertised, midwest thug-ball with guys who should be on a football field --- cross body-blocks on D, and on offense more walking than senior day at the mall. Thing is, you hafta play thru CONTACT, and we did a lousy job of that in the first half. You also hafta clean the glass, and fortunately that improved later.

- playing against such a physical team also exposed our need for a legit PG, but we finally overcame that by increased aggression and Carolina basketball.

Oats recruits with impunity in a systemically dirty athletic department, and as a result he may well have the strongest top-to-bottom talent in the NCAA right now.

The only good news is he's also a moron. The most maddening thing about that loss for me (aside from some of the calls) was that at the time we were playing almost as dumb a system as Oats runs with his lame-ass iso-ball. If we were playing more sound like we are now that game never makes it to OT.

That would be you, coming uninvited and unwanted to a board of a program, the likes of which yours can never even sniff, no matter how many mercenary players your dirty coach buys.

...and welcome back to rewarding the goons.



Anyway, all I can say is that while I'm thankful nobody associated with that program will ever coach here --- I'd prolly gouge my own eyes out rather than watch that fugly thug-ball --- I nonetheless just don't get letting them do their iso back-ins over and over (and over), when a healthy dose of 42 and 32 would've ruined their damned day...

Lots to talk about, but let's start here: I've seen more than enough of Arky down here in SEC country, and they are a dirty team with a coach who teaches that crap --- grabs, elbows, undercuts, illegal screens, body-blocks... plus they travel constantly even just catching a pass. What's funny is that for about 8 minutes I actually thought we had a zebra crew that was gonna call that nonsense, but of course they started letting it "even out", which never goes well for us.

- On that note, several expressed hopes this week that our "edge" this season would serve us well up there, and YES, it did. We did NOT back down to their thug-ball. Ingram (despite a shooting drought) and Cormac were especially feisty on the offensive glass, and Cadeau stoned bigger guys until a GODAWFUL foul call on his dive steal. Mando was snagging boards (one time with BOTH brothers holding each arm, and our rim-protection served notice. WIthers and JWash gave as good as they got, and Seth was up in grilles as usual.

Oats is trash (an epithet I don't like to use) and hugely overrated.

For sure, I threw up in my mouth when posters on a UNC board even mentioned his name in our direction.

- But of course, we've seen this movie too often --- after calling a solid game in the first half, the zebras allowed dook to get away with absolute mayhem. How many times did friggin Mitchell come over somebody's back or dive at our legs on rebounds and loose balls?

- And on that note, Christian Laettner Kyle Flopowski is a dirty POS. Cheap-shotting jackass instigated 3 scuffles and should've been called for 2 flagrants. Just breaks my heart that he was -11 for the game. F*** him.

Good Lord, both these teams should be sent home for making a mockery of a beautiful game.
I feel dirty just watching.

Priceless^^^... and sadly, wouldn't surprise me if literally true.

I utterly despise that classless jackass and his sh** program and makes me sick to my stomach that we have to dirty ourselves by playing them.

Yes, but with the caveat that with Oats you can't get outcoached --- you can only outcoach yourself, --- and unfortunately that happened.

Folks, this was EXACTLY the sort of team we needed to go up against --- experienced, athletic and physical to the edge of dirty --- and it exposed pretty much everything we need to tighten up.

- On a personnel note. Harris is a dirty little f***, and EC flat took him to school.

- Houston is vintage Sampson thug-ball, but Auburn took them down at Houston.

- bama is loaded again, but with the caveat that they have Oates

- We came out of halftime with the sort of effort and urgency on both ends we need EVERY game. EC set the tone vs their thug-ball defense by taking it right down their fouling throats.



Dayton's Guards employed a (frankly dirty) tactic that I've seen taught. I call it "bump-and-flop".

.

Gary you have called everyone from coaches, players, schools, refs, entire states and even TV commentators dirty or thugs.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I just want some insight into what thug ball is, I'm assuming what is called thug ball is simply physical basketball. A team that is physical is a tought team JMO. Every good team needs a little bit of a nastiness or attitude to them are effective.

Tyler Hansbrough was one of the most physical basketball players I have ever seen we loved him. Matter of fact he would have been textbook for a team like Detroit in the 80's.

Yeah, I'm not sure what thug ball is either. I like a physical team.

 

[DSouthr]

True but what and team taking any thing they can get to have an advantage if they can get away with it isn't necessary wrong. It's the refs job to make the calls and if they arent then IMO it good coaching to be doing it.

But back to my initial question it's your call on the next coach who's phone number you dialing?

Oh dang shelby, you a carpenter cause you hit that nil on the head! LOL Look, I am not looking to get in the middle of a war of words between you and gary. I agree with a lot of gary's views, yet I do agree with a lot of what I see you sharing as well, I like all views of a situation, I take all in to consideration and then frame my own. Gary has said MANY times that he doesn't like what he calls "bully ball". But I actually like more physical play. Me personally, if the refs allow the other team to get away with hard physical play then to me it is stupid not to retire the fire in the same way. It would be like a boxer putting up no defense, just standing there letting his opponent blast him and offer to response or defense, kind of dumb in my opinion. I look around right now and see the 2 conferences that tend to specialize in more physical play, what some call "thug ball" being the SEC and the Big10 and where they are found in the top 25, how many teams they will get in to the NCAAT, as opposed to the ACC. I also look at how successful, for example this season, the ACC has been of late vs the more "thug ball" conferences, how that ACC vs SEC challenge go this season for the ACC? Reality is basketball is a contact sport, if you do not matcvh at least the physicality of the other teams you are gonna get knocked out.

Gary doesn't like a lot of screens, calls it bumper pool ball, these couple examples are not examples of me slamming gary, it is simply we see a different approach. His approach has merit, mine does as well, it is a matter of personal preference what style or approach you prefer as a coach. Some fans LOVE the 5 out approach, love the switch all 5 approach on defense, love having 4 guards in together for most of the game, I hate all 3 of those unless it is switched to in game to give the other team something to have to figure out. I actually admire how Tony Benett coached at UVa but I would HATE for his brand of ball be how we play. It is personal preference, there is no such thing as 1 size fits all. I am not looking to prove anyone right or wrong, just sharing what I believe, others believe differently, cool to live in America where we call all have different opinions and express them.

 

[DSouthr]

Once again, that is simply wrong. If Hubert from the beginning had simply taken the multiple defensive approach (as in this game's 2nd half), stayed away from the garbage/fad 5-out crap, and simply utilized the Secondary Break he was taught, this is (at worst) a 3-4 loss team ranked in the top 10-12 as we speak.

That is neither exaggeration nor blue glasses. He has simply made poor choices in this team's approach vis-a-vis our personnel. Hubert's issue is not about his capablilty, it's about his choices.

I totally agree!

 

[DSouthr]

Until unc starts buying top recruiting classes yr after yr no matter who's coaching ..... it will not get any better !!

It pains me greatly but you are right, it is simply where we now are in the sport. You now MUST pay for play else shut the program down, there are no other options if you want to continue the history of winning UNC fans have come to expect.

If you can't match the Jimmys & Joes, out the window your program goes...

 

[DSouthr]

Yeah, I'm not sure what thug ball is either. I like a physical team.

I like a physical team as well slinger. I can assure you this, to most every other fan base in the nation outside of UNC, Hansbourgh was considered to be a thug because of his physical play. For me, one of the best moments in sports was Tyler dunking on Kenny George, it was like Tyler climbed a mountain and planted that flag! LOL

I do NOT like to see players get hurt in any sport, kids work to hard to get to where they are to be injured purposely. But I would ask, any UNC fan, when Hansbourgh took that shot to the face against duke, came out face bloodied, is there a Tar Heel alive that would not have loved to see Henderson catch a elbow to the face on duke's next possession?

 

[Kool1234567]

Gary you have called everyone from coaches, players, schools, refs, entire states and even TV commentators dirty or thugs.

Well damn….Gary knows all about thug life🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[NathanFielder]

I just want some insight into what thug ball is, I'm assuming what is called thug ball is simply physical basketball. A team that is physical is a tought team JMO. Every good team needs a little bit of a nastiness or attitude to them are effective.

Tyler Hansbrough was one of the most physical basketball players I have ever seen we loved him. Matter of fact he would have been textbook for a team like Detroit in the 80's.

Thug ball, lol. Idk, I think this team and program can use some IDGAF rough around the edges grown men.

The question with Kelvin Sampson's brand of basketball is would it ever be accepted at UNC. UNC fans want to play fast, faster, and faster than that. In the last 7 seasons, Sampson's fastest paced team ranked 271st in tempo.

Stylistically, Mark Few's style probably fits the most. His teams run and emphasize getting the ball inside as a priority.

I'm not sure if everyone will love Nate Oats' style apart from the tempo. People think UNC shoots a lot of 3s? Alabama attempts almost 1/2 their FGA's from 3PT territory.

And again, the question with Sampson is whether fans will accept being ok with 65-50 games. They played a double OT game against Kansas that got to 80 possessions. UNC/Alabama got to 83 possessions in regulation.

I ignored Jay Wright's name because everyone would sign up for him regardless of what type of style he plays.

 

[tarwhiz]

Thug ball, lol. Idk, I think this team and program can use some IDGAF rough around the edges grown men.

The question with Kelvin Sampson's brand of basketball is would it ever be accepted at UNC. UNC fans want to play fast, faster, and faster than that. In the last 7 seasons, Sampson's fastest paced team ranked 271st in tempo.

Stylistically, Mark Few's style probably fits the most. His teams run and emphasize getting the ball inside as a priority.

I'm not sure if everyone will love Nate Oats' style apart from the tempo. People think UNC shoots a lot of 3s? Alabama attempts almost 1/2 their FGA's from 3PT territory.

And again, the question with Sampson is whether fans will accept being ok with 65-50 games. They played a double OT game against Kansas that got to 80 possessions. UNC/Alabama got to 83 possessions in regulation.

I ignored Jay Wright's name because everyone would sign up for him regardless of what type of style he plays.

Mark Few is the closest to Roy Williams in style and how he modeled his program.
At his age and comfortable lifestyle in Washington, I doubt he would want this 🔥
I stopped mentioning him because of this, but I agree with you that HE would be my first choice. Then I like Otzelberger

 

[NathanFielder]

Once again, that is simply wrong. If Hubert from the beginning had simply taken the multiple defensive approach (as in this game's 2nd half), stayed away from the garbage/fad 5-out crap, and simply utilized the Secondary Break he was taught, this is (at worst) a 3-4 loss team ranked in the top 10-12 as we speak.

That is neither exaggeration nor blue glasses. He has simply made poor choices in this team's approach vis-a-vis our personnel. Hubert's issue is not about his capablilty, it's about his choices.

I totally agree!

So you both are arguing that the coach has almost single-handedly cost this team anywhere from 6-10 losses (6 at the lowest). If this is the case, Hubert should be fired 100% and latest at the end of the season, correct? What's the justification of bringing back a head coach who has alone cost his Final Four/Elite 8 caliber team a chance to even make the NCAA Tournament? It makes 0 sense to bring back a coach who was that negligent at the wheel.

And if I recall, there was a lot of similar "not playing enough UNC basketball" criticism in the 2023-24 disastrous season. So if you thought that team also was poorly coached, that's 2 wasted seasons purely on the head coach. Again, why keep Hubert then?

And I'll maintain that every offensive system and concept can be successful. It depends how it's being implemented, executed, coached, and the level of talent of the players. If you think this team would absolutely execute the traditional UNC system to a point where they'd be a top 10-12 team, I disagree with that. I just don't think these players are that good.

 

[alabamaheel]

Mark Few is the closest to Roy Williams in style and how he modeled his program.
At his age and comfortable lifestyle in Washington, I doubt he would want this 🔥
I stopped mentioning him because of this, but I agree with you that HE would be my first choice. Then I like Otzelberger

Someone please fill me in on what Otzelberger has done. Career? Accolades?

 

[tarwhiz]

Someone please fill me in on what Otzelberger has done. Career? Accolades?

Nothing that is probably gonna blow up your skirt, but here are some cribb notes.
Took South Dakota St to 2 NCAAT in his 3 years there.
Took the UNLV job and had two poor years there as UNLV has become a jumping point for higher level jobs since Tark left.
Went to Iowa St and has been to the NCAAT each of the last 3 years including winning Big 12 conference tournament last year.
Currently has a highly ranked team that plays tremendous defense.

 

[alabamaheel]

Nothing that is probably gonna blow up your skirt, but here are some cribb notes.
Took South Dakota St to 2 NCAAT in his 3 years there.
Took the UNLV job and had two poor years there as UNLV has become a jumping point for higher level jobs since Tark left.
Went to Iowa St and has been to the NCAAT each of the last 3 years including winning Big 12 conference tournament last year.
Currently has a highly ranked team that plays tremendous defense.

And I guess that’s my point. Meh. If a coaching change is made, we need a home run. Not out of the realm of possibilities, but we need a bill b. lol maybe Gregg pop. He’s in the family tree. Jk, but not really.

 

[tarwhiz]

And I guess that’s my point. Meh. If a coaching change is made, we need a home run. Not out of the realm of possibilities, but we need a bill b. lol maybe Gregg pop. He’s in the family tree. Jk, but not really.

Is this resume better?
13-17
25-6
8-21
14-18
23-10
17-15
25-10 NCAAT
26-8 NCAAT
16-17
19-12
15-8 COVID
23-10 NCAAT

 

[alabamaheel]

Is this resume better?
13-17
25-6
8-21
14-18
23-10
17-15
25-10 NCAAT
26-8 NCAAT
16-17
19-12
15-8 COVID
23-10 NCAAT

Help me out wild man???

 

[tarwhiz]

Help me out wild man???

This was Danny Hurleys resume before winning the last two National Championships.
I just have a gut feeling about T.J.
I had a similar feeling about a guy that Carolina knocked out of the NCAAT in the Elite 8 in 2000 when he was coaching Tulsa.
That guy left Tulsa to Coach Illinois then Kansas.

 

[big_deez]

Someone please fill me in on what Otzelberger has done. Career? Accolades?

I think a lot of folks are high on him more on potential and his body of work. Because getting high profile, proven HCs with "accolades" may not be an option, somene like Otzelberger could be a quality hire. I would argue (along with many others) that his career and "accolades" are superior to what HD brought to this program. Guiding the hiring process, starting with HC experience would be a start. When RW stepped down, UNC obviously didn't see value in meeting a minimum requirement of choosing the HC based on experience. Therefore it does seem career, body of work and "accolades" were N/A during that hiring process for HD. However one could argue giving HD more time based on the 2021-2022 NCAA run, a great season last year AND honestly two of some of the biggest wins against the dookies is very reasonable. However, being on the bubble and or missing the NCAA tourney consistently and a path towards mediocracy is a hugh problem for HD and the current state of this program. This season's performance has really been unacceptable and even getting serious media attention. As a matter of fact, the regression over this season alone is concerning. The fact that HD has no answer, evades, deflects and keeps saying they need to learn and get better during every post presser is a bad look for him. Something is causing the deterioration with this team and to make matters worse, HD is losing to less quality teams so it seems he is doing less with more. Has this team hit bottom yet this season? Seems this is an honest question getting traction within the media, not just fans.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Because getting high profile, proven HCs with "accolades" may not be an option,

I need to understand why getting a proven HC with accolades to Carolina may not be an option. We're literally one of the best 2-3 jobs in the sport.

If we hire a guy named Otzelberger, we may as well shut the program down. No disrespect to the guy and I hope I hear his name for years to come. But remember Fred Hoiberg? He was a hot name and then he was a bum. I'm not settling for a no-name guy to coach the best basketball program in the country especially after we just got the greatest football coach in the history of the world to come coach our football program. Just no f*ckin way.

 

[DSouthr]

So you both are arguing that the coach has almost single-handedly cost this team anywhere from 6-10 losses (6 at the lowest). If this is the case, Hubert should be fired 100% and latest at the end of the season, correct? What's the justification of bringing back a head coach who has alone cost his Final Four/Elite 8 caliber team a chance to even make the NCAA Tournament? It makes 0 sense to bring back a coach who was that negligent at the wheel.

And if I recall, there was a lot of similar "not playing enough UNC basketball" criticism in the 2023-24 disastrous season. So if you thought that team also was poorly coached, that's 2 wasted seasons purely on the head coach. Again, why keep Hubert then?

And I'll maintain that every offensive system and concept can be successful. It depends how it's being implemented, executed, coached, and the level of talent of the players. If you think this team would absolutely execute the traditional UNC system to a point where they'd be a top 10-12 team, I disagree with that. I just don't think these players are that good.

I am not going to speak for gary but as for me when you say "So you both are arguing that the coach has almost single-handedly cost this team anywhere from 6-10 losses (6 at the lowest)." I freely admit GUILTY AS CHARGED. Geez, have you read nothing I have said at any point this season? Have you glossed right over my critique of Hubert after every single game we have played? To say that is 100% rock solid proof that Hubert should be fired at season end is YOUR opinion, is the opinion of what I would suggest is a solid majority of posters here. You, as well as others, will have to excuse me for taking more of a middle ground approach as opposed to instantly going to an extreme.

Fact is I can make a very compelling case for wither side of this, I am looking hard at both side of this and my opinion, like yours, means absolutely nothing because we are not the UNC AD, not the head UNC basketball coach, not on the BOG, not a power member of the Rams club, not the chancellor, no more than 1 grain of sand on a beach. I place more value in trying to figure out how those that do hold sway in this discussion will handle this and you should know it is NOT 100% in either direction. It would do you well to consider all sides of this argument rather than trying to sell it is this way 100%.

 

[big_deez]

I need to understand why getting a proven HC with accolades to Carolina may not be an option. We're literally one of the best 2-3 jobs in the sport.

If we hire a guy named Otzelberger, we may as well shut the program down. No disrespect to the guy and I hope I hear his name for years to come. But remember Fred Hoiberg? He was a hot name and then he was a bum. I'm not settling for a no-name guy to coach the best basketball program in the country especially after we just got the greatest football coach in the history of the world to come coach our football program. Just no f*ckin way.

Sure seems like you choose a few of my words to initiate some argument that doesn't exist, maybe to fit some narrative but Ill bite... In good faith or not, Alabamaheel simply asked about why Otzelberger, I added my 2 cents, normal behavior on a message board. First I said "might" not be an option. This basically means how probable would it be to land a high profile candidate. First lets establish names that would be considered high profile candidates with "accolades". Dan Hurley, Nat Oats, Scott Dew, Mark Few, Jay Wright, Bill Self, Kalvin Sampson... My comment basically means MAYBE or it's quite possible none of those coaches (high profile) would be options for the UNC HC job. Therefore we may need to adjust and accept other candidates outside of this high profile pool. Otzelberger, Kelsey, DeVries, heck what about Luke Murry(UConn) and many others in their own category, COULD based on their history, correct the ship. I'm not part of the camp screaming to fire HD but I am a realistic fan, see the writing on the wall and willing to consider all options. I think HD should get another year but in the meantime, at some point, leadership should work behind the scenes to build interest from high profile candidates. Your claim "If we hire a guy named Otzelberger, we may as well shut the program down." WTH? Just based on his last three years at Iowa State and where the program was the two years before he arrived, kinda kills that blind claim you made. Is he or someone in his caliber guaranteed to right the ship? Of course not, no one is making a guarantee or think they have the correct answer but the world is taking notice, coaching is a major problem with this UNC program right now and it's time to start problem solving...

 

[gunslingerdick]

Sure seems like you choose a few of my words to initiate some argument that doesn't exist, maybe to fit some narrative but Ill bite... In good faith or not, Alabamaheel simply asked about why Otzelberger, I added my 2 cents, normal behavior on a message board. First I said "might" not be an option. This basically means how probable would it be to land a high profile candidate. First lets establish names that would be considered high profile candidates with "accolades". Dan Hurley, Nat Oats, Scott Dew, Mark Few, Jay Wright, Bill Self, Kalvin Sampson... My comment basically means MAYBE or it's quite possible none of those coaches (high profile) would be options for the UNC HC job. Therefore we may need to adjust and accept other candidates outside of this high profile pool. Otzelberger, Kelsey, DeVries, heck what about Luke Murry(UConn) and many others in their own category, COULD based on their history, correct the ship. I'm not part of the camp screaming to fire HD but I am a realistic fan, see the writing on the wall and willing to consider all options. I think HD should get another year but in the meantime, at some point, leadership should work behind the scenes to build interest from high profile candidates. Your claim "If we hire a guy named Otzelberger, we may as well shut the program down." WTH? Just based on his last three years at Iowa State and where the program was the two years before he arrived, kinda kills that blind claim you made. Is he or someone in his caliber guaranteed to right the ship? Of course not, no one is making a guarantee or think they have the correct answer but the world is taking notice, coaching is a major problem with this UNC program right now and it's time to start problem solving...

I’m not starting an argument. I’m sharing my opinion. I appreciate your response but I wasn’t necessarily looking for one.

Anyway, it doesn’t even matter. All signs point to Hubert being back next year. Yay. So we can resume this discussion in Feb of next year when we’re squarely on the bubble again and underperforming with regard to the talent that we brought in with our new GM led model and new commitment to NIL.

 

[DSouthr]

This was Danny Hurleys resume before winning the last two National Championships.
I just have a gut feeling about T.J.
I had a similar feeling about a guy that Carolina knocked out of the NCAAT in the Elite 8 in 2000 when he was coaching Tulsa.
That guy left Tulsa to Coach Illinois then Kansas.

Tarwhiz, Roy had a similar gut feeling about Hubert, is there a plague of stomach virus going around that is effecting everyone's gut? LOL

Maybe I am catching it as well because when I think of Bill Self, how he has built his teams with paid for players before it was OK by the NCAA gives me a sick feeling in the tummy.

 

[big_deez]

I’m not starting an argument. I’m sharing my opinion. I appreciate your response but I wasn’t necessarily looking for one.

Anyway, it doesn’t even matter. All signs point to Hubert being back next year. Yay. So we can resume this discussion in Feb of next year when we’re squarely on the bubble again and underperforming with regard to the talent that we brought in with our new GM led model and new commitment to NIL.

Yea sorry, I meant no disrespect. I do agree with you, the UNC HC job should warrant the best, a high profile coach. But I wonder who in this pool would leave a great gig to take this job on? Very risky... Also you are right, HD needs another year, with a new proposed GM and some NIL adjustments so maybe he can correct this. Honestly with CW on board, I wonder if HD is one quality big and a three point shooter(taller than 5'11 heh) away from success given he can actually coach it. Mainly, he's certainly changed his stance and thought on how to negotiate with portal candidates and recruits lmao.

 

[DSouthr]

I need to understand why getting a proven HC with accolades to Carolina may not be an option. We're literally one of the best 2-3 jobs in the sport.

If we hire a guy named Otzelberger, we may as well shut the program down. No disrespect to the guy and I hope I hear his name for years to come. But remember Fred Hoiberg? He was a hot name and then he was a bum. I'm not settling for a no-name guy to coach the best basketball program in the country especially after we just got the greatest football coach in the history of the world to come coach our football program. Just no f*ckin way.

Now I like a good burger, got one from Habitat couple days ago, highly recommend it! By far best burger I have ever had was buffalo, you never tried one then you just don't know! LOL Got to say, never tried a Oxen burger, it does not sound all that tasty, even wrapped in a sky blue bun? LOL

The point is I see every time UNC Fans are pissed at a head coach there is a auto default to wanting that coach fired and replaced with a flavor of the month coach that is having a really good season. Problem is you don't know how that flavor of the month coach will pan out for UNC. I think it takes 10yrs of successful coaching to be ready for a job like ours. The UNC job is such a pressure cooker due to the expectations of this fan base that if you can not match the success of our hall of fame coaches you will be destroyed, you have to be tough enough to wade thru all of that. Taking the job as UNC head coach in my opinion destroyed Matt's career as a coach, is in the process of doing the very same to Hubert. Neither should have been named our head coach, they simply did not have the back ground to make it work.

I actually think in time Hubert could be an outstanding head coach but he needed that time at a smaller program that would allow him to formulate his system and work out the kinks. I don't know how long it would take him to do that at UNC, how long would it have taken Dean or K if they were rookie coaches for UNC and duke today? We have seen that Hubert's teams can win when they have talent in both back and front court, we have seen the same from Schyer. The difference between Schyer and Hubert is that Schyer has been gifted with much more talent and specifically front court talent than Hubert has been able to get. Idunk shared today some numbers that reflect that duke has spent 8 times the amount that Hubert was able to spend, folks $$$ is the difference, Schyer with out that money is Hubert yet duke fans are for sure not calling for Schyers head, are they.

 

[Bubspub88]

I need to understand why getting a proven HC with accolades to Carolina may not be an option. We're literally one of the best 2-3 jobs in the sport.

Historically, no question. Currently, maybe top 15. Last national championship almost 10 years ago, since then lost 2nd round, regional semi's, missed, lost 1st round, lost in finals, missed and lost regional semi's again. No high-profile NBA all-stars. NIL package woefully behind the other big boys. Throw in a conference whose future is murky and it's not exactly sunshine and roses.

I firmly believe the right coach with the appropriate resources behind him can right the train quickly. Is Davis that guy, I do not think so. I know he loves UNC but I was nervous about the lack of HC experience when he was hired and he has not shown me he can identify or develop talent. He wins against weaker programs but against equal or greater talent I just do not see the coaching savvy I am used to seeing in that seat.

 

[tarwhiz]

Tarwhiz, Roy had a similar gut feeling about Hubert, is there a plague of stomach virus going around that is effecting everyone's gut? LOL

Maybe I am catching it as well because when I think of Bill Self, how he has built his teams with paid for players before it was OK by the NCAA gives me a sick feeling in the tummy.

Your preaching to the choir about your dislike for Bill Self. Nobody in the college game disgusts me more than that smug SOB knowing how he acquired a great deal of his plays.
Now I can feel that way and simultaneously know that he is one of the, count on one hand, greatest coaching minds I have seen.
His adaptability is out of this world.
He has owned the Big 12 ( Best basketball conferences in America, until recent SEC)
He has won with defensive minded teams that had only a few big scorers.
He has won with offensive juggernauts.
He has won in years where he has had great size, and also many years playing 3 guards.
His adjustments from game to game, half to half (2022) and timeout to timeout is top level.
He can definitely be a D bag and a coaching genius simultaneously.
I don't know if T.J. Otzelberger will be anything more than a really good coach at Iowa State, but I also never in my wildest dreams thought Danny Hurley would turn out to be who he currently is.
Check his pre championship resume I posted above.
I am still hoping we win 8 in a row and Hubert is coaching the Heels in the NCAAT come March.

 

[DSouthr]

Yea sorry, I meant no disrespect. I do agree with you, the UNC HC job should warrant the best, a high profile coach. But I wonder who in this pool would leave a great gig to take this job on? Very risky... Also you are right, HD needs another year, with a new proposed GM and some NIL adjustments so maybe he can correct this. Honestly with CW on board, I wonder if HD is one quality big and a three point shooter(taller than 5'11 heh) away from success given he can actually coach it. Mainly, he's certainly changed his stance and thought on how to negotiate with portal candidates and recruits lmao.

Deez, I would out it like this, had we got the last portal right, even with the coaching miscues I see from Hubert, this could well have been a final 4 level team. What do I mean by getting that portal right, first actually getting a really good shooter as opposed to Tyson, for example a guy that did consider UNC, Kobe Brea (excuse the spell) would have been step 1. Step 2 was to get either and I would have been glad to get both Danny Wolf (7'0" 250lbs) or Vlad Goldin (7'1" 250lbs). If you get both call it a day or get 1 and then you have the insurance you need to chase that top level guy like Raymound or Kaulkbrenner had he entered the portal. But we didn't treat any of these guys as priorities, may have been (you know I want to say absolutely was) some NIL issues involved.

You put Wolf, Goldin, and Brea on this team right now and remove Lubin, Tyson, and Claude this team is very likely considered final 4 level. Still not well coached but enough talent to hide a lot of what is glaring right now.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

I'll pull a name outta my arse....Mike Brown.

1,2,3..."WHO?!"

Mike Brown was recently fired as a Sacramento Kings coach and previously was the head coach of the cavaliers and the Lakers. He was also an assistant to Steve Kerr at Golden State. Everyone seems to love the guy (multiple head coaches spoke up for him after his last firing) and seems to have moderate success everywhere he goes. He was coach of the year in 22- 23 and '08- 09 .

I have nothing even resembling inside information but maybe the guy is tired of the NBA lifestyle and getting fired every 2 years? He's young (54), relates well to players, and clearly knows how to coach! I have no idea if he is interested in college basketball or the University of North Carolina but before anyone shoots it full of holes, neither did Bill Belichick.

 

[DSouthr]

Yea sorry, I meant no disrespect. I do agree with you, the UNC HC job should warrant the best, a high profile coach. But I wonder who in this pool would leave a great gig to take this job on? Very risky... Also you are right, HD needs another year, with a new proposed GM and some NIL adjustments so maybe he can correct this. Honestly with CW on board, I wonder if HD is one quality big and a three point shooter(taller than 5'11 heh) away from success given he can actually coach it. Mainly, he's certainly changed his stance and thought on how to negotiate with portal candidates and recruits lmao.

One of the more compelling arguments I would use to justify bring Hubert back is that UNC sports, as a whole, not unlike most every other program, is in total flux right now, nothing feels concrete. I think the dust has to settle some before we make huge decisions, the Belichick hire was a lightening strike, not just for UNC but for NCAA sports as a whole.

 

[DSouthr]

I'll pull a name outta my arse....Mike Brown.

1,2,3..."WHO?!"

Mike Brown was recently fired as a Sacramento Kings coach and previously was the head coach of the cavaliers and the Lakers. He was also an assistant to Steve Kerr at Golden State. Everyone seems to love the guy (multiple head coaches spoke up for him after his last firing) and seems to have moderate success everywhere he goes. He was coach of the year in 22- 23 and '08- 09 .

I have nothing even resembling inside information but maybe the guy is tired of the NBA lifestyle and getting fired every 2 years? He's young (54), relates well to players, and clearly knows how to coach! I have no idea if he is interested in college basketball or the University of North Carolina but before anyone shoots it full of holes, neither did Bill Belichick.

Well worth checking in with him t see if he would be open to a college gig.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Historically, no question. Currently, maybe top 15. Last national championship almost 10 years ago, since then lost 2nd round, regional semi's, missed, lost 1st round, lost in finals, missed and lost regional semi's again. No high-profile NBA all-stars. NIL package woefully behind the other big boys. Throw in a conference whose future is murky and it's not exactly sunshine and roses.

I firmly believe the right coach with the appropriate resources behind him can right the train quickly. Is Davis that guy, I do not think so. I know he loves UNC but I was nervous about the lack of HC experience when he was hired and he has not shown me he can identify or develop talent. He wins against weaker programs but against equal or greater talent I just do not see the coaching savvy I am used to seeing in that seat.

Historical reputations don’t die overnight. Or even in a decade. MJ is forever. Baby blue and argyle are forever. The Carolina brand is forever.

You have a good point regarding the NIL money. But I’m assuming that we will be at least on par with other programs if not the leader by next summer. Bill Belichick is the rising tide that lifts all boats.

As far as a conference in limbo, let’s make sure that we recognize that it is in limbo in part, because of us. We are the crown jewel of the ACC, whose membership the two big boys are vying for. It may be more appropriate to say that where we choose to play in the near future is in limbo versus a more negative take such as “we’re in a dying conference.” While the latter is true, we are in no danger whatsoever of being on the outside looking in on big paydays. We are a part of the future big paydays and maybe a driver of the future big paydays. Any coach under consideration for our HC position would know that.

All that to say, it is my belief that we could steal 99.9% of college coaches away from their current jobs. But I’ve also said, I don’t think I can name one current college basketball coach that I think is on the level deserving of our HC position. Jay Wright and Billy Donovan are the two names that meet my specifications.