Quick stuff (GT game)...
- Thread starter gary-7
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I agree completely that Trimble is as much a lead guard as RJ and Caleb. He is younger and not as set in his ways and seems to adjust a bit better though. He seems happy to be the defensive stopper and transition facilitator as his niche! I think with his flexibility and team first attitude, he could develop into a fine point, but I don't think we have the luxury or space on the roster to wait for it to happen! I'm optimistic we will have a special natural point on board next season so he will most likely be played primarily at his best position, the 2! He will be a dadgum good secondary ball handler though! If we get a natural lead next season, Trimble will blossom and be a real problem on both ends for opponents! This year, he will be that monster lurking on the bench to motivate our starters and frighten opponents!
Amen --- and that's already happened once --- resurrecting from purgatory can't come too soon.
Not hard to figure it out he has a very low basketball IQ!
You disagree with his statement? I think it’s very obvious that Love has a low basketball IQ And that’s putting it kindly.
Yeah he disagrees and so should you.
The only thing low IQ was that response itself.
Come on dude, seriously?
To say Caleb has a lower basketball IQ is not saying the kid is dumb, it is a reflection of how he makes decisions on the court. How he takes in all the information he can, processes it in a split second, and makes a decision based on that information. It is as well about the level of play that requires exceptional decision making. As compared to the normal fan, Caleb's basketball IQ would be well above average but as compared to the scale of the competition he plays it simply is a weak point.
I suggest you check David Sisk for examples of game break downs that show this really clearly and if that is not enough check out some of the pod casts from Andrew and maybe even a NBA scout or 2. Or you may just want to compare and contrast what we saw from kendal as opposed to what we have seen from Caleb.
There are players with raw talent and no basketball IQ and there are players with less raw talent and vast basketball IQ.
Love is the first example!
Some of the best guards we have ever had at Carolina were not the most talented but had high basketball IQ!
Love is the guy that when the player guarding him and the big in the middle are in foul trouble he would shoot and contested 3 and not drive a draw contact or get an easy basket because the guy guarding him and the big have a high basketball IQ and know they are more valuable on the offensive end of the floor than they are fouled out on the bench beside the coach!
If your feelings are hurt because someone said Love has a poor basketball IQ, then you need to go to your safe space. Love does have a poor basketball IQ. It’s quite common in these “I, me, mine” days.
It might not be the highest, but it's not that bad by any means. Just because he's not a natural PG, it often appears that way, but as long as he plays within a level of control, his decision-making is manageable. Caleb's biggest issue is the emotional state he plays with at times. While it's good that he has the "dog" in him, he needs to be more judicious in picking his spots.
BTW, as opposed to critiquing, the poster I reacted to above was just making a crack for the sake of being negative, as per ususal.
Arch is nothing if not consistent and I respect that! I disagree that Love has low bball IQ, but I agree that is looks like he does sometimes because he isn't a PG! MP was a natural 2 that very quickly acquired the skills and specific bball nuances of the point. He grew into a really good point, but it was clearly not his best position! Love is a natural 2, with excellent 2 guard instincts that are sometimes overwhelmed by the dog in him. He isn't a point, even though his stature says he should be these days! When his shot falls, he looks like he could take over the world, when it doesn't he looks a little lost. I really need him to be able to still perform his other duties even when his shot isn't falling.
It may not be IQ, maybe it also has to do with work ethic, but there is definitely something missing from Caleb’s game….
Which is why he’s a junior collecting NIL instead of playing for real pay like his contemporaries.
Which is why he’s a junior collecting NIL instead of playing for real pay like his contemporaries.
I am curious, what is this thing we call a "natural PG"? I know when I say it what it means to me, have even posted some of the more important traits of a natural PG in my eyes. But it feels like what a "natural PG" is depends on who you ask?
To me, the most important trait of a true PG is what his first thought is on the offensive end, is that first thought to set things up so that a team mate has a easy look to finish or is it your first thought to score yourself. It is exactly there that I do not see either Caleb or RJ as PGs, it is as well where I see Trimble as a PG more than a 2. Ever notice, as an aside, when you see a PG that is a score first guy we call him a combo, yet when we see a PG that facilitates first rather than hunt his personal scoring we call him a natural PG? Doesn't that seem a little bit inconsistent? LOL
Marcus Paige, Phil Ford, and Ray Felton all had one common and very rare trait. They had the unique ability to modify their mindset on the fly depending on what their team needed them to be at any given moment. They had this extra sense where they knew when to take a game over themselves and when to distribute (and at times pass up shots they could make) to their teammates so they could finish and they did it organically, didn't need their coach risk a heart attack screaming for them to change things up. That is a trait that Caleb does not seem to have and a trait it seems he has no desire to try to develop, RJ is better at it but still leaves a lot to be desired.
This much I do know, in the end the real test is the decision making, decisions are made and we can clearly see the results of that decision. TOs of casualness or omission (as opposed to commission) are what you will see as the result of a poor decision. Understanding what a good shot actually is and how that definition changes based on the shot clock or game clock (in other words situational awareness). Then you see Caleb in a tight game throw up a fall away 35' trey with a hand in his face, with 15-20 seconds left on the shot clock, with no board coverage, no matter what that is a bad shot (because of a bad decision), even if it goes in. Bad shots that go in are bad shots they just have a happy ending, same as a good shot that does not drop is still a good shot and a good decision. Caleb is taking FEWER bad shots (other than the Bama game, that was simply nutzs) but he will never be confused with Wayne Ellington when it comes to good shot bad shot.
I think this is where the disagreement takes place! I don't see basketball IQ a position dependent! It's generic for the game of basketball! You either have a high IQ for the game or you don't!
It absolutely is not position dependent, yes I agree. However, I do think it more important that your PG have a higher level basketball IQ than a center simply because that PG has the ball in his hands more.
This basketball IQ question, it isn't digital, it isn't on or off, it rather is a range. It isn't do you have it or not but more do your have it to the degree your peers (players at the level you are competing) have. Example, Caleb when he drives, he is actually getting a bit better at this but notice when he drives, what does his head do? It drops, he is looking directly at the floor. Now I ask you, how do you know where your team mates is if you are looking down at the ball you are dribbling, you can't pass to a guy you can't see. You can only see your team mates for a potential pass if your head is up and you can see him, even if it is just out of the corner of your eye. So that is an example of a bad habit that leads to a bad decision.
A PG is the conductor for both the offense and defense. He alone gets the signals and transmits those to the other 4 on the court. If he is a trusted PG in the image of say, a Dick Grubar, Phil Ford, Eddie Cota, Derrick Phelps, Ty Lawson, Kendall Marshal, & Marcus Paige, he was allowed to change calls depending on the change-up defenses they faced in a possession or opportunities that were seen in secondary breaks. Those mentioned are the elite PG's and had the mind of a PG. What exactly is the mind of a PG & what are the traits that make a great PG?
1. He is the Coaches voice on the floor and transmits his decisions to the other 4. He is the engine that runs both sides of the ball.
2. He has unequivocal ball control skills and extreme linear eyesight.
3. He has complete control of the basketball and sees several possible passes before they are made, and is able, with his skill with the ball, get passing lanes opened that lead to easy baskets.
4. He shoots a high percentage and forces the defenses to honor his shot making, which also forces defenses to play him as a definitive threat to score and leads to him being doubled frequently on defense and with his superior vision can see who is going to be open and gets the ball to them pronto for easy scoring opportunities.
5. He can & does play stifling defense.
Our roster DOES NOT have a guard with those prerequisites, as neither Caleb, RJ, nor Trimble have all of the above because they are not PG's, but 2G's playing PG.
In reference to Caleb's BB IQ. It's not the IQ as much as it's the mindset that he cannot seem to overcome. After 2 full years and what we have seen thus far this season with Caleb, he still thinks that his talent is superior to his competition and continues to try and make plays that are telegraphed and easily defended and more often than not result in T/O's. It's his continual reverting back to his AAU playing days where he was the superior talent and could just out athlete his opponents. That does not work in College Basketball folks, where every team has athletes and there have been more than a few times that he has had it proven to him.
He played much the same last year for about half of the season if you will just remember, and when he changed his approach, the team came together and were as good as they could be considering that that team did not have a PG either.
Yes, you can be successful as we were last year, but it is not sustainable over the long haul. You can have only 1 chief on the court and that should be your PG. As long as we have others trying to be the chief, we will continue to be somewhat inefficient and beatable. Next year we will have a PG-maybe 2. You will then be able to see the differences a true PG can make on a team. We do not have one, so we have to work together more as a team to get successful results. To date it's a really mixed bag wouldn't you say?
1. He is the Coaches voice on the floor and transmits his decisions to the other 4. He is the engine that runs both sides of the ball.
2. He has unequivocal ball control skills and extreme linear eyesight.
3. He has complete control of the basketball and sees several possible passes before they are made, and is able, with his skill with the ball, get passing lanes opened that lead to easy baskets.
4. He shoots a high percentage and forces the defenses to honor his shot making, which also forces defenses to play him as a definitive threat to score and leads to him being doubled frequently on defense and with his superior vision can see who is going to be open and gets the ball to them pronto for easy scoring opportunities.
5. He can & does play stifling defense.
Our roster DOES NOT have a guard with those prerequisites, as neither Caleb, RJ, nor Trimble have all of the above because they are not PG's, but 2G's playing PG.
In reference to Caleb's BB IQ. It's not the IQ as much as it's the mindset that he cannot seem to overcome. After 2 full years and what we have seen thus far this season with Caleb, he still thinks that his talent is superior to his competition and continues to try and make plays that are telegraphed and easily defended and more often than not result in T/O's. It's his continual reverting back to his AAU playing days where he was the superior talent and could just out athlete his opponents. That does not work in College Basketball folks, where every team has athletes and there have been more than a few times that he has had it proven to him.
He played much the same last year for about half of the season if you will just remember, and when he changed his approach, the team came together and were as good as they could be considering that that team did not have a PG either.
Yes, you can be successful as we were last year, but it is not sustainable over the long haul. You can have only 1 chief on the court and that should be your PG. As long as we have others trying to be the chief, we will continue to be somewhat inefficient and beatable. Next year we will have a PG-maybe 2. You will then be able to see the differences a true PG can make on a team. We do not have one, so we have to work together more as a team to get successful results. To date it's a really mixed bag wouldn't you say?
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75, your whole post summarised the issue facing the team… but this paragraph hits the nail on the head vis-a-vis Caleb.
So it seems he just lacks the maturity to accept his limitations and maybe suffers from having so much blown up his rear end he farts smoke rings.
I said" Not hard to figure it out he has a very low basketball IQ!"
This was what I said!
It sure wasn't and look at the fan support he received behind that BS.
Dayumm 75... can't add much to that...
Great list. Thanks.
I'd be interested in hearing your (and Gary's and other gurus') assessment of our current PG candidates.
For example, I think RJ tries to do #1 (coach on the floor). But I also see Caleb trying to do #1 occasionally, and it sometimes seems they aren't on the same page.
RJ and Caleb (but not Seth yet) can do #4 (scoring).
Only Seth looks capable of excelling at #5 (defense). People say Caleb should be there, too, but he rarely is.
Not sure anyone qualifies on your handling and passing criteria, although sometimes all of them make nice passes, so I think that could be a strength with sufficient coaching.
All that said, even some of your top PGs wouldn't get an A on all those measures. IIRC, Kendall's D was never that great, and he only started being a scoring threat late in his last season. Meanwhile, it took a while for Marcus to get a decent handle and for JB to be an effective defender. Which is not a knock against any of these guys - rather, to say that you can be a really good PG without necessarily ticking all the boxes.
Elliot Cadeau & Boogie Fland. Keep those in your prayers for PG's.
Both RJ & Caleb try to facilitate and at times are successful, but too often they revert to what they were before Carolina BB, and that was scorers of the ball. That's ideal for a 2G, but not a facilitating PG who directs the flow of an offense and looks for opportunities at all times to get the ball to the best scoring option(s).
As far as defense goes, Tremble is, of the 3, the one more inclined to play smothering defense. Caleb is capable but has severe lapses on defense as he constantly looses his man on defense. Rj is limited due to his size (he is not the 6' he is listed at) and has problems defending bigger guards.
And no, no one on the current roster, with maybe the exception of Tremble, make uncontested passes from the PG spot.
I will concede that while Kendall was not a defensive stalwart, he was very unique in that his passing skills and linear vision is unsurpassed by any of those mentioned in my post. Kendall was smart, he knew he was a little slow afoot, but when he got beat, he would ask for help in the form of a John Henson, who he would force the quicker players to his side of the ball and John erased many of Kendal"s man's shots.
Marcus was not a PG to start out, but he was a very smart basketball mind and he made himself be what those teams needed. Not only did he facilitate, but he was also a major threat to score as you will recall.
Great discussion, to which, I can add very little! BUT I will say no list can really encapsulate what a great PG is because it also depends on what the particular team needs. It is as hard to describe as pornography where congressmen have said, "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it!" At the end of last season, we had a great PG because the team was running efficiently on all cylinders and on both ends of the floor! This season, the same guy, RJ, is faced with a team that has different needs and he hasn't been able to or allowed to adjust enough to fulfill those needs! Caleb and RJ must not only learn to complement each other, they must also decide who is in charge and allow them to lead. The best leaders know when to follow! Lebron went to Miami and allowed D Wade to continue to be the team leader because his bball IQ is as high as any player ever!
