Stats and stuff (Clemson game)...

[gary-7]

...ok, back to business.

stats
- Clemmy was unconscious in the first half and made a lotta difficult shots. The cooled off a tad in the Second

- we were 10/24 from 3, but that's largely thanks to Berry's 7/10

- big Rebound margin in our favor: 51-32

-still turned the ball over too often (18) but some of those had some, um, help.

- Huge game from Meeks - 14 Pts, 16 Rebounds (10 Offensive), 2 Assists, 2 Steals, 2 Blocks

- and of course JB's career-high 31 Pts...(without a single trip to the FT line) and leader dog was obviously back on his feed following the flu bug --- played 41 of 45 minutes, including every minute of the Second Half and OT.

- we were much better in transition with 10 Fast Break and 30 Secondary Break pts. and we only blew 6 Secondary Break opportunities

stuff
- Good to see us play 42 early and cause a TO and a couple of series of 30. We played three possessions of Point Zone and a couple of 2-3, and with the exception of the time Kenny missed the steal, they didn't score against or Zones.

- good coaching by Roy drawing up plays in crucial length-of-court situations, first getting the ball to JB on the run for a last shot op, and going deep to Kenny in OT.

- speaking of KW, after missing two wide-open 3s in OT young fella came up with several big plays including 2 swished FTs to make it two a possession game. Those were in a 1-and-1 BTW, Lord knows we were never gonna see double-bonus from those striped bandits.

- like many here, I wish Kennedy would just go ahead and dunk the ball when the opportunity is there, but he was all over the boards and played some damned fine post defense tonight, especially in crunch time. Also, if Kennedy in fact said something to the Clemson bench to provoke Brownell, well I'll just say he was probably sick and tired of having to wear #50 like a cheap suit with almost no fouls called.

- speaking of defense, JJ did a nice overall job on Blossongame when we were forced to go small late

- speaking of defense and JJ, Berry's steal off a Clemmy transition chance was the play of the game. JJ almost coughed it up on the blown Assists but got it back to the little dog for a big Fast Break lay-up.

- After things got chippy on a loose ball in front of our bench, JB bowed up and from that point it was ON. As someone I know who played pickup with and against Berry this summer says, watch his body language --- If he looks pissed he's probably gonna score.

- finally, I'm gonna have to call out my boy JB on a couple of things. 1) When you're up 3 inside a minute in regulation do NOT give up a 3 look, and 2) when you're heat-checking stop being so damned unselfish --- I realize the play late in regulation was drawn up for a drive-and-kick-out to Kenny, but if it's not clearly there just take the shot, and there was no need to force the ball to Kennedy on that other late play. Yeah, he got fouled but y'all weren't getting any calls in this one. Take the pull-up son --- they can't guard you!


Anyway, good to get back in the win column against a very sold and motivated team.

 

[gauchoheel]

Thanks for doing this Gary, love love love these recaps! Pretty happy with the win overall. Some comments:

- Good to see us play 42 early and cause a TO and a couple of series of 30. We played three possessions of Point Zone and a couple of 2-3, and with the exception of the time Kenny missed the steal, they didn't score against or Zones.

Can you clarify what you mean here? I'm not much of a basketball coach, so I don't know what those defenses are. I do know 2-3.

Lord knows we were never gonna see double-bonus from those striped bandits.

Sweet mercy, I agree. It felt like those refs didn't want to do anything to upset the home crowd. I think we had <10 FT's in regulation?

speaking of defense, JJ did a nice overall job on Blossongame when we were forced to go small late

I agree. In fact I would have liked to have seen this move made earlier. Hicks just could not stay in front of Blossomgame for the life of him.

finally, I'm gonna have to call out my boy JB on a couple of things. 1) When you're up 3 inside a minute in regulation do NOT give up a 3 look

Could not agree more. That's simple pickup strategy there. Up 3, you've got to overcommit. Let him blow past you if you need to, but don't let him tie it on that possession! Hicks did it in the Kentucky game too. Can't do that anymore.

One other note, I don't think Woods, Robinson, or Maye played at all after halftime. If Tony played, it wasn't much. In my opinion that was probably the right call. The first 3 aren't contributing as much as the other regulars right now, and Bradley would have had no chance of staying with Blossomgame.

But hey, we won!!

 

[Heelicious]

...ok, back to business.

stats
- Clemmy was unconscious in the first half and made a lotta difficult shots. The cooled off a tad in the Second

- we were 10/24 from 3, but that's largely thanks to Berry's 7/10

- big Rebound margin in our favor: 51-32

-still turned the ball over too often (18) but some of those had some, um, help.

- Huge game from Meeks - 14 Pts, 16 Rebounds (10 Offensive), 2 Assists, 2 Steals, 2 Blocks

- and of course JB's career-high 31 Pts...(without a single trip to the FT line) and leader dog was obviously back on his feed following the flu bug --- played 41 of 45 minutes, including every minute of the Second Half and OT.

- we were much better in transition with 10 Fast Break and 30 Secondary Break pts. and we only blew 6 Secondary Break opportunities

stuff
- Good to see us play 42 early and cause a TO and a couple of series of 30. We played three possessions of Point Zone and a couple of 2-3, and with the exception of the time Kenny missed the steal, they didn't score against or Zones.

- good coaching by Roy drawing up plays in crucial length-of-court situations, first getting the ball to JB on the run for a last shot op, and going deep to Kenny in OT.

- speaking of KW, after missing two wide-open 3s in OT young fella came up with several big plays including 2 swished FTs to make it two a possession game. Those were in a 1-and-1 BTW, Lord knows we were never gonna see double-bonus from those striped bandits.

- like many here, I wish Kennedy would just go ahead and dunk the ball when the opportunity is there, but he was all over the boards and played some damned fine post defense tonight, especially in crunch time. Also, if Kennedy in fact said something to the Clemson bench to provoke Brownell, well I'll just say he was probably sick and tired of having to wear #50 like a cheap suit with almost no fouls called.

- speaking of defense, JJ did a nice overall job on Blossongame when we were forced to go small late

- speaking of defense and JJ, Berry's steal off a Clemmy transition chance was the play of the game. JJ almost coughed it up on the blown Assists but got it back to the little dog for a big Fast Break lay-up.

- After things got chippy on a loose ball in front of our bench, JB bowed up and from that point it was ON. As someone I know who played pickup with and against Berry this summer says, watch his body language --- If he looks pissed he's probably gonna score.

- finally, I'm gonna have to call out my boy JB on a couple of things. 1) When you're up 3 inside a minute in regulation do NOT give up a 3 look, and 2) when you're heat-checking stop being so damned unselfish --- I realize the play late in regulation was drawn up for a drive-and-kick-out to Kenny, but if it's not clearly there just take the shot, and there was no need to force the ball to Kennedy on that other late play. Yeah, he got fouled but y'all weren't getting any calls in this one. Take the pull-up son --- they can't guard you!


Anyway, good to get back in the win column against a very sold and motivated team.

Good comments, Gary. JB sure carried them tonight. JJ at times, too. Kenny hit some big shots at important times including his money FTs late.... and the two point jumper just inside the 3 - line. That is the worst shot location in basketball, but sure glad it went in.

I have a hard time giving Meeks credit for a good game. He seems to get a lot of rebounds that fall to him. That could be another stat you could track. Self-gifted offensive rebounds on missed 2-foot or less shots.

I'll take your word for it that he was getting fouled on a lot of plays where he was on offense. It is just infuriating to me that he gets the ball facing the basket on the low block and he seems capable of tip-missing 3 or 4 shots on a single posession.... instead of just coming down strong with the ball, going up strong, and putting it off the fricking box on the backboard. You don't get more points for a one handed soft tip.

The one time he came down with an offensive rebound and went back up strong, it was an and-1. You're never going to get a foul call on a weak volleyball one hand tip. I can't imagine he is so gassed that he can't collect the ball and go back up. He is supposedly 6-10. If he gets even 4-6 inches of lift it should be about a <1 foot shot off the box on the glass.

 

[Heelicious]

T

One other note, I don't think Woods, Robinson, or Maye played at all after halftime. If Tony played, it wasn't much. In my opinion that was probably the right call. The first 3 aren't contributing as much as the other regulars right now, and Bradley would have had no chance of staying with Blossomgame.

But hey, we won!!

Woods is really a mess right now. Maybe he can get his game right, and it will come to him, and he can add value at some point. No way at this point is he a viable option to back up Berry. Britt is much better at handling the ball and running offense, feeding the post.

Sadly, I'd say its well over half of the posessions where 7th touches the ball, something bad happens.... an out of control shot, or a turnover (most likely) or a pass to someone in a spot where they can't do anything with it.... almost like an assist to a turnover or bad shot.

 

[gauchoheel]

Woods is really a mess right now. Maybe he can get his game right, and it will come to him, and he can add value at some point. No way at this point is he a viable option to back up Berry. Britt is much better at handling the ball and running offense, feeding the post.

Sadly, I'd say its well over half of the posessions where 7th touches the ball, something bad happens.... an out of control shot, or a turnover (most likely) or a pass to someone in a spot where they can't do anything with it.... almost like an assist to a turnover or bad shot.

I actually liked that drive where he took it to the rim against their big guy. Just couldn't finish or get the foul call.

 

[gary-7]

Thanks for doing this Gary, love love love these recaps! Pretty happy with the win overall. Some comments:



Can you clarify what you mean here? I'm not much of a basketball coach, so I don't know what those defenses are. I do know 2-3.



Sweet mercy, I agree. It felt like those refs didn't want to do anything to upset the home crowd. I think we had <10 FT's in regulation?



I agree. In fact I would have liked to have seen this move made earlier. Hicks just could not stay in front of Blossomgame for the life of him.



Could not agree more. That's simple pickup strategy there. Up 3, you've got to overcommit. Let him blow past you if you need to, but don't let him tie it on that possession! Hicks did it in the Kentucky game too. Can't do that anymore.

One other note, I don't think Woods, Robinson, or Maye played at all after halftime. If Tony played, it wasn't much. In my opinion that was probably the right call. The first 3 aren't contributing as much as the other regulars right now, and Bradley would have had no chance of staying with Blossomgame.

But hey, we won!!

The difference in identifying it is subtle, but 30 is our general code for the classic Dean Smith "run-and-jump", where someone off the ball quickly switches off his man for a double-team and the defenders who are "one pass away" try to step in passing lanes, with the remaining guy "2 passes away" becomes the "goal-tender" in the paint. The biggest difference with 40 is we switch from Man to a de facto 2-2-1 Zone Press and maintain that as long as the ball is in trap positions, chasing the dribbler if necessary to initiate the motion. If the ball gets back to the middle then the press is off until a new sideline double can be initiated and it starts again. Dean used more 40 (especially late in his career) while Roy uses more 30.

And yes, Hicks had a tough time with Blossongame, especially after the whistles limited him. As for PT, I'm not sure who was well, but I suspect that there were some leftover flu casualties, with Tony and Luke coming to mind.

 

[carolinablue34]

I keep hearing about the flu. Did the team really have it?

 

[gary-7]

I keep hearing about the flu. Did the team really have it?

Yep. JB had to have an IV to even play vs Monmouth and he was still off his feed at Tech. Heard a few others got it bad too.

 

[carolinablue34]

Yep. JB had to have an IV to even play vs Monmouth and he was still off his feed at Tech. Heard a few others got it bad too.

Yikes. That might explain some of the poor play against GT. Even so there was no excuse. Much needed win tonight.

 

[gauchoheel]

The difference in identifying it is subtle, but 30 is our general code for the classic Dean Smith "run-and-jump", where someone off the ball quickly switches off his man for a double-team and the defenders who are "one pass away" try to step in passing lanes, with the remaining guy "2 passes away" becomes the "goal-tender" in the paint. The biggest difference with 40 is we switch from Man to a de facto 2-2-1 Zone Press and maintain that as long as the ball is in trap positions, chasing the dribbler if necessary to initiate the motion. If the ball gets back to the middle then the press is off until a new sideline double can be initiated and it starts again. Dean used more 40 (especially late in his career) while Roy uses more 30.

Ok. Sorry to be obtuse, I'm just interested. But to clarify, it sounds like 30 is similar to a standard man-to-man half court trap? I'm not familiar with the "run and jump". I found this resource (http://www.basketballforcoaches.com/run-and-jump-defense/) but it appears to be a full court press.

Then the 40 (or is it 42 as you initially stated?) is a 2-2-1 zone half-court trap?

I also found this info packet on Dean Smith's defense (http://coachmacsbasketballmembership.webstarts.com/uploads/Dean_Smith_s_Defensive_Rules.pdf). It seems to define 30 as trapping the dribbler and 40 as trapping the passer, rather than a man vs. zone dichotomy. This does seem to clear up my 40 vs 42 question.

I had no understanding of the Point-Zone either. This resource looks good (http://www.coachesclipboard.net/BasketballPointZoneDefense.html). It seems like a hybrid of 2-3 and 1-3-1.

 

[gary-7]

Ok. Sorry to be obtuse, I'm just interested. But to clarify, it sounds like 30 is similar to a standard man-to-man half court trap? I'm not familiar with the "run and jump". I found this resource (http://www.basketballforcoaches.com/run-and-jump-defense/) but it appears to be a full court press.

Then the 40 (or is it 42 as you initially stated?) is a 2-2-1 zone half-court trap?

I also found this info packet on Dean Smith's defense (http://coachmacsbasketballmembership.webstarts.com/uploads/Dean_Smith_s_Defensive_Rules.pdf). It seems to define 30 as trapping the dribbler and 40 as trapping the passer, rather than a man vs. zone dichotomy. This does seem to clear up my 40 vs 42 question.

I had no understanding of the Point-Zone either. This resource looks good (http://www.coachesclipboard.net/BasketballPointZoneDefense.html). It seems like a hybrid of 2-3 and 1-3-1.

Actually the second number is just the pickup point (Half court ends in 2). And while those descriptions aren't 100% accurate, they are common practice. For example, yes, when JB slid down to double when his man passed to the sideline in the opening minutes that was indeed 42, while if a doubler "jumps" the dribbler from the wing (as opposed to waiting for him to be funneled into the trap) then yes, that is typically 32. Again though, the difference can be subtle and sometimes doesn't make itself clear until another rotation, those are pretty good keys.

And yes, the Point Zone looks like a 2-3 but actually matches up into 1-3-1 responsibilities in relation to the first movement of the ball (the "point"). Funny thing is that in all his years and years calling ACC games I don't know if Billy Packer ever got that right recognizing it .

 

[gauchoheel]

Actually the second number is just the pickup point (Half court ends in 2). And while those descriptions aren't 100% accurate, they are common practice. For example, yes, when JB slid down to double when his man passed to the sideline in the opening minutes that was indeed 42, while if a doubler "jumps" the dribbler from the wing (as opposed to waiting for him to be funneled into the trap) then yes, that is typically 32. Again though, the difference can be subtle and sometimes doesn't make itself clear until another rotation, those are pretty good keys.

And yes, the Point Zone looks like a 2-3 but actually matches up into 1-3-1 responsibilities in relation to the first movement of the ball (the "point"). Funny thing is that in all his years and years calling ACC games I don't know if Billy Packer ever got that right recognizing it .

Awesome, thanks!!

 

[DSouthr]

...ok, back to business.

stats
- Clemmy was unconscious in the first half and made a lotta difficult shots. The cooled off a tad in the Second

- we were 10/24 from 3, but that's largely thanks to Berry's 7/10

- big Rebound margin in our favor: 51-32

-still turned the ball over too often (18) but some of those had some, um, help.

- Huge game from Meeks - 14 Pts, 16 Rebounds (10 Offensive), 2 Assists, 2 Steals, 2 Blocks

- and of course JB's career-high 31 Pts...(without a single trip to the FT line) and leader dog was obviously back on his feed following the flu bug --- played 41 of 45 minutes, including every minute of the Second Half and OT.

- we were much better in transition with 10 Fast Break and 30 Secondary Break pts. and we only blew 6 Secondary Break opportunities

stuff
- Good to see us play 42 early and cause a TO and a couple of series of 30. We played three possessions of Point Zone and a couple of 2-3, and with the exception of the time Kenny missed the steal, they didn't score against or Zones.

- good coaching by Roy drawing up plays in crucial length-of-court situations, first getting the ball to JB on the run for a last shot op, and going deep to Kenny in OT.

- speaking of KW, after missing two wide-open 3s in OT young fella came up with several big plays including 2 swished FTs to make it two a possession game. Those were in a 1-and-1 BTW, Lord knows we were never gonna see double-bonus from those striped bandits.

- like many here, I wish Kennedy would just go ahead and dunk the ball when the opportunity is there, but he was all over the boards and played some damned fine post defense tonight, especially in crunch time. Also, if Kennedy in fact said something to the Clemson bench to provoke Brownell, well I'll just say he was probably sick and tired of having to wear #50 like a cheap suit with almost no fouls called.

- speaking of defense, JJ did a nice overall job on Blossongame when we were forced to go small late

- speaking of defense and JJ, Berry's steal off a Clemmy transition chance was the play of the game. JJ almost coughed it up on the blown Assists but got it back to the little dog for a big Fast Break lay-up.

- After things got chippy on a loose ball in front of our bench, JB bowed up and from that point it was ON. As someone I know who played pickup with and against Berry this summer says, watch his body language --- If he looks pissed he's probably gonna score.

- finally, I'm gonna have to call out my boy JB on a couple of things. 1) When you're up 3 inside a minute in regulation do NOT give up a 3 look, and 2) when you're heat-checking stop being so damned unselfish --- I realize the play late in regulation was drawn up for a drive-and-kick-out to Kenny, but if it's not clearly there just take the shot, and there was no need to force the ball to Kennedy on that other late play. Yeah, he got fouled but y'all weren't getting any calls in this one. Take the pull-up son --- they can't guard you!


Anyway, good to get back in the win column against a very sold and motivated team.

Pretty good stuff gary, do wish you would back off the ref stuff a lil bit but hey, is what it is. I was sceaming thru the TV last night, first come on Justin, man, ya got to step up and hit those free throws when the game is on the line, we got VERY and I mean VERY lucky Clemson missed that free throw at the end of regulation. Justin just hitting one of those puts us up 4 and game over. But as if that were not bad enough, Joel grants the trey to a team down 3? Heck, even if he let the kid by him for a lay up they are down 1 with around 2-3 seconds left and then throws meeks a hard pass to catch that gave them the chance to get fouled? Great on the scoring out burst but not the best of regular game endings, good on kenny for doing what Justin didn't do at the end of regulation. Joel needs to clean up those TOs, 11 in 2 games is not good, got to be stronger with the ball than that.

Hicks got 6 shots, made 3 of them, Hicks has to be more involved in our offense than that, we have got to start running some more things for him, he has to want the ball more, show more hungar. He seems to be more of a role player than he needs to be, he is fantastic when he looks for his offense, he just doesn't look for it as much as we need him to. And we need kenny to step up more on the offensive end, pretty solid on the D end but offensively he is timid, passes up a lot of good shots as if he is not totally confident in taking them.

Justin 8-20, Meeks 5-14, combined 34 shots and Hicks can only find 6 shots in 24mins? I think Hicks needs to be getting 10-15 shots a game, he needs to get to the foul line and he does that when he is looking for his shots, he is money on the free throw line.

I have not listened to Roy's PC yet but I hope he tells us that Tony is sick because don't know if I can understand Tony only getting 19 total minutes in the last 2 games?

I am concerned right now that we are so dependant on Joel and Justin jump shooting, fortunately one or the other has stepped up for the most part but we need more balance and I feel specifically Hicks and Kenny are a bit to shy on the offensive end.

Finally, I am worried about 7th Woods, felt he was turning the corner a little bit a few games back but man, it has got worse, has to have his confidence as low as it could be at this point, almost like a zombie out there scared to do anything for fear of turning the ball over and that is exactly what the result is to often. Hope this kid can get it together because there is astonishing talent there but feel bad for the kid right now.

 

[gary-7]

Pretty good stuff gary, do wish you would back off the ref stuff a lil bit but hey, is what it is. I was sceaming thru the TV last night, first come on Justin, man, ya got to step up and hit those free throws when the game is on the line, we got VERY and I mean VERY lucky Clemson missed that free throw at the end of regulation. Justin just hitting one of those puts us up 4 and game over. But as if that were not bad enough, Joel grants the trey to a team down 3? Heck, even if he let the kid by him for a lay up they are down 1 with around 2-3 seconds left and then throws meeks a hard pass to catch that gave them the chance to get fouled? Great on the scoring out burst but not the best of regular game endings, good on kenny for doing what Justin didn't do at the end of regulation. Joel needs to clean up those TOs, 11 in 2 games is not good, got to be stronger with the ball than that.

Hicks got 6 shots, made 3 of them, Hicks has to be more involved in our offense than that, we have got to start running some more things for him, he has to want the ball more, show more hungar. He seems to be more of a role player than he needs to be, he is fantastic when he looks for his offense, he just doesn't look for it as much as we need him to. And we need kenny to step up more on the offensive end, pretty solid on the D end but offensively he is timid, passes up a lot of good shots as if he is not totally confident in taking them.

Justin 8-20, Meeks 5-14, combined 34 shots and Hicks can only find 6 shots in 24mins? I think Hicks needs to be getting 10-15 shots a game, he needs to get to the foul line and he does that when he is looking for his shots, he is money on the free throw line.

I have not listened to Roy's PC yet but I hope he tells us that Tony is sick because don't know if I can understand Tony only getting 19 total minutes in the last 2 games?

I am concerned right now that we are so dependant on Joel and Justin jump shooting, fortunately one or the other has stepped up for the most part but we need more balance and I feel specifically Hicks and Kenny are a bit to shy on the offensive end.

Finally, I am worried about 7th Woods, felt he was turning the corner a little bit a few games back but man, it has got worse, has to have his confidence as low as it could be at this point, almost like a zombie out there scared to do anything for fear of turning the ball over and that is exactly what the result is to often. Hope this kid can get it together because there is astonishing talent there but feel bad for the kid right now.

Dave, I agree big time on Hicks. I'd like to see us make a concerted effort to get him the rock more often --- maybe some more hi-lo from Kennedy. And JJ was hunting his shot just a tad too much --- the extra pass would have been nice in some instances.

And yes, I think it may be time to declare the 7th PG experiment a bust. I understood it, as I stated several times, but I'd rather see Stilman get the few minutes JB rests,

As for the refs, sorry, but I call it as it is. Fact is, they were just terrible --- one in particular. I watched the game with a couple of members of my coach mafia (neither of whom are Carolina fans BTW), and more than once one of them said, "man, Nestor is just killing you guys!" We were getting the ball inside and driving a lot and could not get a call. Didn't even hit the bonus in the second half until Jackson's miss, and how may times did JB end up on the floor, and zero FTs to show for it? And how #50 stays in a game is beyond me, all the while Hicks is picking up phantom calls. It is an issue and it is affecting games.

 

[soap - new and improved]

Nestor should not be allowed to be a lifeguard in a backyard kiddy pool. He is awful and apparently trained under Hess The Mess.

 

[All_Heel]

I so miss the pull-up jumper. I kept reminiscing about Phil Ford and what it would have meant to have someone like him last night.

 

[gary-7]

I so miss the pull-up jumper. I kept reminiscing about Phil Ford and what it would have meant to have someone like him last night.

Yeah, and JB is absolutely deadly on that. Should have pulled up instead of forcing the kick-out.

 

[dadika13]

As for the refs, sorry, but I call it as it is. Fact is, they were just terrible --- one in particular. I watched the game with a couple of members of my coach mafia (neither of whom are Carolina fans BTW), and more than once one of them said, "man, Nestor is just killing you guys!" We were getting the ball inside and driving a lot and could not get a call. Didn't even hit the bonus in the second half until Jackson's miss, and how may times did JB end up on the floor, and zero FTs to show for it? And how #50 stays in a game is beyond me, all the while Hicks is picking up phantom calls. It is an issue and it is affecting games.

College bball refs are awful all around, I love how Van Gundy called them out during the Cavs/Warriors game Xmas day.

I didn't think they were any better or worse last night for either team. We blame refs too much on this board. No one has it out for us, the scores of the GT and Clemson game were a result of how we played...not the officials.

 

[gary-7]

College bball refs are awful all around, I love how Van Gundy called them out during the Cavs/Warriors game Xmas day.

I didn't think they were any better or worse last night for either team. We blame refs too much on this board. No one has it out for us, the scores of the GT and Clemson game were a result of how we played...not the officials.

The refs affected the game, especially Nestor, and no, the affect was not neutral by any means. It makes no sense to whitewash that. Just for one example he stood there when the Clemson guy grabbed JJ's arm right in front of him at a crucial time in the game with nothing blocking his view. I've played, coached and reffed the game and failing to make that obvious call is inexcusable, and if there was any accountability that would merit a suspension or reduction in assignments.

 

[trestyles]

Yikes. That might explain some of the poor play against GT. Even so there was no excuse. Much needed win tonight.

No excuse for playing sick???? Some of y'all need help.

 

[DSouthr]

The refs affected the game, especially Nestor, and no, the affect was not neutral by any means. It makes no sense to whitewash that. Just for one example he stood there when the Clemson guy grabbed JJ's arm right in front of him at a crucial time in the game with nothing blocking his view. I've played, coached and reffed the game and failing to make that obvious call is inexcusable, and if there was any accountability that would merit a suspension or reduction in assignments.

Gary, here is the problem, what do we believe? Do we believe that the refs as a whole are on direct instruction by the NCAA to specifically select UNC to take down by making calls in games that hurt our chances to win? That is one side of the argument and holding that view does and maybe should invoke the tin hat responses.

The other side of it is that the refs never shade their calls one way or the other, they call it fair down the middle but fans only see the bad calls that go against their team and don't really acknowledge those that are in favor of their team. That belief from many invokes the you head is in the sand if you don;t see how bad that call was or how it hurt us.

Those are the extremes but fans far to often seem to gravitate to the extremes, more so than the more reasonable place in the middle. I don't believe in a grand conspiracy from the refs nor do I believe they always get it right, refs make bad calls, some times they step over the line and call it harder for one team than another, humans at times do things like that.

WE just beat Clemson and I noticed a comment from someone yesterday that Clemson fans do not believe Clemson has ever lost anything, they believe the refs steal from them wins, seen that same thing about wuffie fans many many times. We consider it lame when another fan base believes they were hosed by the refs when we win, yet we talk about how bad the refs were pretty much every game? If I believe that Clemson fans or state fans are lame for crying about the refs, how can I not feel the same when we do it?

Look, if it is a particular clear bad call at the wrong time, sure hammer it, but game after game it begins to jump the shark. It has to come down tot players adjusting to the way a game is called, a bad call will happen, bad shiat happens to good people in life, you have to adjust and play thru and sometimes just realize life ain't always fair, just as refs calls ain't always fair. I am not trying to throw shade at you, I am just sharing how I see things and why I don't really like to go to much with the refs as an reason why we lose or play a closer than expected game. I believe the game is decided in the 40mins and a single basket in the first 5mins of a game made or missed has just as much impact on a 1pt game with 10 sec remaining as a bad whistle does. If it is a particular bad call by all means I will discuss it, I just don't see it as a running theme.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Refs make bad calls, it's what they do. Sometimes in our favor and sometimes not.

 

[TarHeelTroy]

My 2 cents. Huge win on the road. Much needed. Potentially going 0-2 with the brutal ACC schedule upcoming was looking very possible. Clemson player missing the front end of the 1-1 when the game was tied at 77 with 5 seconds remaining....WOW what a break that was for us, and yeah he looked like he missed on purpose. Weird but I'll take it. JB saved our butt with his shooting. One play that was extremely frustrating to me, as I'm sure it was to many of you as well, was somewhat early in the 1st half. I believe we had a 4-5 point lead and Justin had the ball on the floor after a miss. Could have called timeout and saved the possession, but instead tried to pass out of it while lying horizontal on the floor. Turned it over and I believe Clemson went on a 7-0 run after that within a minute or 2.

 

[gary-7]

Gary, here is the problem, what do we believe? Do we believe that the refs as a whole are on direct instruction by the NCAA to specifically select UNC to take down by making calls in games that hurt our chances to win? That is one side of the argument and holding that view does and maybe should invoke the tin hat responses.

The other side of it is that the refs never shade their calls one way or the other, they call it fair down the middle but fans only see the bad calls that go against their team and don't really acknowledge those that are in favor of their team. That belief from many invokes the you head is in the sand if you don;t see how bad that call was or how it hurt us.

Those are the extremes but fans far to often seem to gravitate to the extremes, more so than the more reasonable place in the middle. I don't believe in a grand conspiracy from the refs nor do I believe they always get it right, refs make bad calls, some times they step over the line and call it harder for one team than another, humans at times do things like that.

WE just beat Clemson and I noticed a comment from someone yesterday that Clemson fans do not believe Clemson has ever lost anything, they believe the refs steal from them wins, seen that same thing about wuffie fans many many times. We consider it lame when another fan base believes they were hosed by the refs when we win, yet we talk about how bad the refs were pretty much every game? If I believe that Clemson fans or state fans are lame for crying about the refs, how can I not feel the same when we do it?

Look, if it is a particular clear bad call at the wrong time, sure hammer it, but game after game it begins to jump the shark. It has to come down tot players adjusting to the way a game is called, a bad call will happen, bad shiat happens to good people in life, you have to adjust and play thru and sometimes just realize life ain't always fair, just as refs calls ain't always fair. I am not trying to throw shade at you, I am just sharing how I see things and why I don't really like to go to much with the refs as an reason why we lose or play a closer than expected game. I believe the game is decided in the 40mins and a single basket in the first 5mins of a game made or missed has just as much impact on a 1pt game with 10 sec remaining as a bad whistle does. If it is a particular bad call by all means I will discuss it, I just don't see it as a running theme.

Dave, honestly this has nothing to do with the point whatsoever and is false equivalency. The fact is we have NOT talked about bad refs in every game. Making a comment about a ref in a given game is every bit as relevant as whether or not Player-X shot well, and I or anyone should be able to do so without PC police objecting. Anyone who doesn't believe refs can and do affect the outcome of games frankly doesn't know what they're talking about. Ideally in a given game the zebras call it competently enough that they don't skew it and they don't become an issue. Unfortunately that scenario doesn't happen as routinely as it should.

Here's the bottom line: What I said about Nestor was spot on. Hell, I just noticed that there's a 2-page thread about him on another site (#Reality). And this is NOT about one bad call. As I said, I had two experienced coaches with no dog in the fight incredulous at just how bad and one-sided he was that particular night. Furthermore, this is NOT about some anti-UNC bias --- it's about competence and approach to the game, and that is what is sorely wanting these days. I've argued several times the biggest issue is lack of accountability, and HOW they're evaluated. Any system that would annoint Michael f***ing Stephens as one of the best 3 officials to get to call a damned National Championship game is deeply --- check that, FATALLY --- flawed.

Roy has to be politically correct in stating it, but it doesn't take a U.N. translator to figure out that he feels that refs have too often been an issue and that (for example) Hicks has not been treated with a fair standard this season. If Roy is too blunt he gets in trouble --- I don't. So, when it's an obvious issue in a particular game I'm not about to censor that.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

- like many here, I wish Kennedy would just go ahead and dunk the ball when the opportunity is there....

Question for our coaches and other knowledgeable posters: do we actually teach and run drills on dunking?

My top-of-the-head guess is that most kids practice that on their own because it's fun and let's them show off, but that Roy and the other coaches may not actually focus on it during regular practices. And that probably works fine for most guys. I mean with limited time, is that what you want to spend it on?

That said, in Kennedy's case, I wonder if a lot of dunking practice might not be a really good idea. Partly so that it becomes second nature, and partly because he probably still needs to get good at jumping after so many years of not playing that way due to weight.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

- Good to see us play 42 early and cause a TO and a couple of series of 30. We played three possessions of Point Zone and a couple of 2-3, and with the exception of the time Kenny missed the steal, they didn't score against or Zones.

I'm embarrassed to show my ignorance yet again, but you don't learn if you don't ask. I assume "42" is a defense. Is that right? What does it involve?

 

[gary-7]

Question for our coaches and other knowledgeable posters: do we actually teach and run drills on dunking?

My top-of-the-head guess is that most kids practice that on their own because it's fun and let's them show off, but that Roy and the other coaches may not actually focus on it during regular practices. And that probably works fine for most guys. I mean with limited time, is that what you want to spend it on?

That said, in Kennedy's case, I wonder if a lot of dunking practice might not be a really good idea. Partly so that it becomes second nature, and partly because he probably still needs to get good at jumping after so many years of not playing that way due to weight.

It's funny you bring that up, because we were talking about that Tuesday night. Historically UNC coaches going back to Dean have taught Bigs to lay the ball up as a default. While that dates back to the era of dunking being illegal, even after the dunk was reinstated Dean didn't want his players to become too reliant on the dunk at the expense of their acumen in finishing in a variety of ways. On one hand that has paid off over the years with UNC Bigs being adept around the rim, BUT sometimes our guys eschew the dunk too often. Kennedy is a great example of that. With his strength and hands he would be VERY difficult to stop if he got more aggressive in powering it down instead of giving bouncy defenders an easier chance to block his shot ---and he would probably (hopefully) get more calls.

 

[gary-7]

I'm embarrassed to show my ignorance yet again, but you don't learn if you don't ask. I assume "42" is a defense. Is that right? What does it involve?

Yes. 40 is numerical UNC terminology for disguised Zone traps that spring out of our Man defense (20). Scroll back up in this thread where @gauchoheel and I were conversing about the difference between 30 and 40 defenses for the nuances.

BTW: The half-court version (42) was one of Dean's great inventions. Billy Cunningham took it into the NBA coaching the 76ers and flummoxed the league by being able to run a Zone trap in a league where Zones were illegal.

 

[Butterbutt44]

I want to learn to! So, like, if zones were illegal in the NBA how was it that Cunningham got away with running a zone trap? Surely someone would've figured out it wasn't only a trap but a zone trap and they'd have levied a fine or a suspension or told them to quit running the trap resembling a zone. Or am I missing something

 

[Butterbutt44]

It's funny you bring that up, because we were talking about that Tuesday night. Historically UNC coaches going back to Dean have taught Bigs to lay the ball up as a default. While that dates back to the era of dunking being illegal, even after the dunk was reinstated Dean didn't want his players to become too reliant on the dunk at the expense of their acumen in finishing in a variety of ways. On one hand that has paid off over the years with UNC Bigs being adept around the rim, BUT sometimes our guys eschew the dunk too often. Kennedy is a great example of that. With his strength and hands he would be VERY difficult to stop if he got more aggressive in powering it down instead of giving bouncy defenders an easier chance to block his shot ---and he woulkd probably (hopefully) get more calls.

Are you implying seriously that Kennedy Meeks doesn't dunk the ball because dean smith didn't always like his players to dunk?

 

[gary-7]

Are you implying seriously that Kennedy Meeks doesn't dunk the ball because dean smith didn't always like his players to dunk?

Did you seriously just post that? Reading comprehension is hard I suppose.

 

[Butterbutt44]

Did you seriously just post that? Reading comprehension is hard I suppose.

You said that Dean and unc coaches after him have taught the bigs "to lay it up by default". You then when on to explain that this has helped their acumen but that Kennedy eschews the dunk too often. You seemed to be correlating the fact that unc coaches from Dean down teaching this may explain kennedys lack of dunking.

Personally I just think he can't jump very high, but I'm open to another explanation.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Meeks can and has dunked the ball. Butter, please don't go out of your way to pick yet another fight, we all sick of it.

 

[gary-7]

I want to learn to! So, like, if zones were illegal in the NBA how was it that Cunningham got away with running a zone trap? Surely someone would've figured out it wasn't only a trap but a zone trap and they'd have levied a fine or a suspension or told them to quit running the trap resembling a zone. Or am I missing something

Missing something is pretty much standard. But y'know what? I'll try to explain it to you.
The old NBA rule, designed to eliminate Zones, was called "Illegal Defense", which resulted in a Technical Foul shot. The Illegal Defense call was triggered by defenders off the ball being out of reach of an offensive player for more than any discernible length of time. Originally it was very much a judgement call. The beauty of the 42 was that everyone is guarding closely enough and moving enough not to violate that rule, and since it was never illegal to double someone, and the Zone Trap of the 42 snapped off of Man defense, it worked great within the existing rule.
And it was a big reason for the Sixers' '83 championship.

Sometime in the early 2000s IIRC the NBA changed the rule --- technically allowing Zones, BUT bringing in a "Defensive 3-Seconds" violation to keep rim-protectors from camping out in the paint. Since then it has often been a shell game with some coaches utilizing "flood" zones, overloading ball-side to defend isolations and having their help-side guys stay in the paint as close to 3 seconds as possible.

 

[Raising Heel]

The fact is we have NOT talked about bad refs in every game.

Clemson:

Lord knows we were never gonna see double-bonus from those striped bandits.

Georgia Tech:

This was just a horribly played, poorly officiated, ugly, sloppy mess

Monmouth:

King Rice must've remembered all those illegal screens he had to deal with as a PG, because Monmouth was using them on a Big-10 level...

Northern Iowa:

Following a gawd-awful dookie-flop charge call that sent JB to the bench....

Kentucky:

On our first possession, Fox just ran up and fouled JB and the zebra called Berry for a travel. Welp, that set the tone.

Tennessee:

And as expected , being a Barnes team, they came out physical and fouled everyone but Eric Montross....

 

[Butterbutt44]

Meeks can and has dunked the ball. Butter, please don't go out of your way to pick yet another fight, we all sick of it.

I was asking an honest question, am I not allowed to do that? When Gary implies Kennedy doesn't dunk because of the unc coaching philosophy, I am intrigued as to why he's saying that.

Of course Kennedy can dunk, but you and I both know that's not what we are discussing. Dunking in game situations is much different than doing it in layup lines. Personally I think Kennedy not dunking in games has nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with limited athleticism and aggression,since we've seen multiple unc big men dunk competently in game situations before.

 

[gary-7]

You said that Dean and unc coaches after him have taught the bigs "to lay it up by default". You then when on to explain that this has helped their acumen but that Kennedy eschews the dunk too often. You seemed to be correlating the fact that unc coaches from Dean down teaching this may explain kennedys lack of dunking.

Personally I just think he can't jump very high, but I'm open to another explanation.

Interesting. You write an intelligent paragraph correctly summarizing what I said, then go full doofus in the next. Guess you missed KM's dunk vs Clemson.

 

[toophly1124]

every damn game!! Hahahaha

 

[Butterbutt44]

Interesting. You write an intelligent paragraph correctly summarizing what I said, then go full doofus in the next. Guess you missed KM's dunk vs Clemson.

You never answered me. Kennedy Meeks doesn't dunk a lot in game situations because of?

And I'm aware the kid can dunk, I've not said otherwise. seen him do it maybe 5 times in his whole career when he's wide open.

 

[gary-7]

Clemson:


Georgia Tech:


Monmouth:


Northern Iowa:


Kentucky:


Tennessee:

Commenting on a team's playing style or a player getting away with a flop, etc, is not the same as talking about Nestor's game-long buffoonery. The former were just notable parts of given games --- the latter damned near cost us one. And every one of those comments was accurate.

The GA Tech game for example WAS poorly officiated but didn't dictate the outcome --- our poor play did. That was a comment on the ugliness of the affair and it was true and I'm not gonna censor it. If you don't like it, don't read it.