I get that! I was just reminding everyone where Roy's philosophy comes from. The GOAT, no matter what anyone else says. The greatest number of wins does not equal the greatest coach.
Stats and stuff (Indiana game)...
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I get that! I was just reminding everyone where Roy's philosophy comes from. The GOAT, no matter what anyone else says. The greatest number of wins does not equal the greatest coach.
Saving them can make sense.
Letting your players work through adversity on the court can make sense.
Certainly Dean did both of those. And it makes sense that Roy would, too.
But knowing when not to save TOs and when your kids are so rattled that the cost of letting them work through adversity is too high also makes sense.
Dean saw those exceptions-to-the-rule better than Roy does, I think. Or maybe my memory is bad.
The game is also different. For most of his career, Dean had the option to slow it down - sometimes a lot - in response to on-court situations he didn't like. It's also the case that games usually didn't get out of hand so quickly prior to the 3-point shot.
There was a point early in the first half when I found myself wanting to see Roy hold up 4 fingers. Just to let some air out and let our guys regroup.
Yeah, I agree cory, it strikes me as a desperation to try to explain away a loss, this time out thing seems to get brought up after every loss, almost as if I don't know what else to blame it on so let me go to the default of Roy didn't call a time out.
I get both sides of the argument, I really do, in fact my personal opinion would be to call more time outs to stem runs. But it is one of those things that are not set in stone. Read someone say it is a accepted standard, it isn't, it is a coaches decision based on the circumstances and what he is wanting from his team. Ask 100 coaches and you will get both sides of the argument advocated, this is just how Roy does it , Roy hates zones and the internet to, I don't. I have seen games where the best decision was to not call a time out and have seen them where I felt a TO to slow down a run may have helped.
Oz, I just SMH at the belittling of Luke on here. Before his injury he was a major part of the rotation and for good reason. As he feels better he will continue to be, and not as a token player nor just a minor role, but as one of our top-8 players (top-9 once Theo gets back).
All true, Dave. Here's the other part that few seem to gather --- Roy coached this game differently than if this was an NCAA Tourney game.
As a coach and a Dean disciple I was a TO-saver too, but yeah, isolating it just to this particular game I would've called my use-it-or-lose-it TO during that early bad run... but if this was a tourney game or even an ACC game I suspect Roy would have as well. The point is that in these early-season adversity situations, Roy has more patience than I did and he has shown he is willing to use them as trial-by-fire tests and teaching opportunities.
Stilman would have been fine and is an ace in the hole for whenever he's needed, but your constant bashing of Luke is totally off-base and frankly, uninformed.
I'm not "bashing" him. To say he didn't belong in that high level game coming off injury is not bashing a kid who brings hustle and effort but not much more. Him trying to guard OG looked entirely ridiculous.
And I'm sorry we all can't be as "informed" as you. It's tough to be- you being a "Dean disciple" and all. I'm sure those middle schoolers you coach up really are in awe and grateful that you like Dean pick and choose your timeouts wisely. Learned eye and such.
Just let it slide, man. @gary-7 has a long, long, long history on this site of telling posters he's smarter than they are.
You most certainly have been bashing Luke. And now you think it's clever to bash me. Keep trying.
In many, many, many cases that's a low threshold.
I'll say it ouright. Maye sucked. Whether rust or not, he sucked. He missed an open layup badly. He missed an open lane to the basket by pivoting the wrong way and taking a terrible shot and only reason it is not getting mentioned here was they called a ticky tack foul on the defender to bail out Maye's poor decision which costed us a free layup. And his 3 pointer was a terrible decision in the situation and wasn't even close. If you want to take a poor shot choice that late in the game you better make it or at least be damn close.
He was out of position a few times on defense, and the offense stagnated with him in there.
He was out of position a few times on defense, and the offense stagnated with him in there.
I'll give Maye a pass on his level of sucketh for that game . . as he didn't do any worse than everyone else who played Wednesday night minus Mr. Justin Jackson. JJ was the only one that truly played up to expectations . . Maye is coming off an injury, so, I'm willing to give him a couple of games to get his rhythm back and feeling normal on the floor.
Theres not a real viable option in replacing Mr. Maye other than going to a smaller line-up . . we're extremely thin in the front court this year. Quite simply, it is what it is and lets just cheer our guys on . .
Bottom line is that IU wanted that game very badly and they went out played their hearts out . . lets just give them their just due and move on from it.
jmhho
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I get what you're saying but...we rolled through Maui without Maye even being available. I'm sure it's good to have him in case, but to bring him back vs iu was questionable. I'm not blaming the player so much as wondering why Roy would do that.
Because playing Maye meant more than an all-out crusade to win a game that only mattered to anyone other than the spoiled UNC fans that we are.
Why did Roy start Britt . . . ? Because Nate was the defensive player of the game in 4 of our first 7 games, and he likely believed that Nate could handle best the task of staying in front of Mr. Blackmon.
Second guessing coaches is what message board poasters do best . . and why Roy calls it the Crapnet.
jmho
haha thats fine- we are spoiled, We all have different opinions on the Way Roy coaches early. I rarely question his decisions myself- But in this case bringing a kid back who had been injured for weeks and only a practice or two under his belt when we have plenty of easier games coming up to get him back in rhythm not only put him in a bad spot- but also messed with our rotation.Maye probably didnt belong playing much in that game with those matchups even when healthy.I thought it was dumb, along with starting Britt.
@Butterbutt44
I'm including myself when saying we are spoiled.
Message boards are for Monday morning QBing, rehashing, second-guessing and above all, bitching, moaning and groaning about our coaches, team, refs and so on . . . all of which I do as much as any other.
I'm including myself when saying we are spoiled.
Message boards are for Monday morning QBing, rehashing, second-guessing and above all, bitching, moaning and groaning about our coaches, team, refs and so on . . . all of which I do as much as any other.
Gary I am glad that you are smart. Coach Williams, will you please continue to coach as you see fit. shun1 approves, thank you.
!!!!!!!!!!!! I SUPPORT YOU COACH !!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!! I SUPPORT YOU COACH !!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!!
I re-watched this game last night, finally! LOL Not that Luke played great in his 8 min in the game but there are a few things that have to be realized. First, our bigs over all got in to foul trouble, did ya get that all 3 of our bigs got in to foul trouble, Luke as along as Theo is out is our other guy that is in our front court. How do you not play him when the other 3 are in trouble with fouls? Roy had Joel/Kenny/Nate in together at points (I am not a fan of that) with Justin as our 4 with Meeks trying to get thru the foul problems, didn't work.
Next, 2 plays that have been seen as Luke screwing it up, first the catch on the wing and drive to the basket where the rim blocked his shot. Ya know why Luke put up such a hard shot rather than finish a lay up, it was because Bryant was right there in great shot block position and he altered what Luke could do, shot blockers have a way of doing that. Few plays past that, on the defensive end, Bryant gets the ball as Luke is man defending, now Bryant turns and has a rather easy lay in, problem is Luke funneled him base line as he is taught to do but Tony didn't rotate weak side to challenge the shot, Tony kinda stood and watched the lay in, that was on Tony. Would have liked to have seen Luke force him one more step toward the baseline but he should have got weak side help and it was not there.
We played much better in the second half, I think gary mentioned we lifted Hicks more up top to clear out more room for meeks in the paint and open more driving lanes, explains why Hicks didn't get more shots up as well as why meeks became more effective, should have done more of that early and not launch so many poor look treys. Give IU credit, they hit some good shots and killed us with spacing on the offensive end.
Next, 2 plays that have been seen as Luke screwing it up, first the catch on the wing and drive to the basket where the rim blocked his shot. Ya know why Luke put up such a hard shot rather than finish a lay up, it was because Bryant was right there in great shot block position and he altered what Luke could do, shot blockers have a way of doing that. Few plays past that, on the defensive end, Bryant gets the ball as Luke is man defending, now Bryant turns and has a rather easy lay in, problem is Luke funneled him base line as he is taught to do but Tony didn't rotate weak side to challenge the shot, Tony kinda stood and watched the lay in, that was on Tony. Would have liked to have seen Luke force him one more step toward the baseline but he should have got weak side help and it was not there.
We played much better in the second half, I think gary mentioned we lifted Hicks more up top to clear out more room for meeks in the paint and open more driving lanes, explains why Hicks didn't get more shots up as well as why meeks became more effective, should have done more of that early and not launch so many poor look treys. Give IU credit, they hit some good shots and killed us with spacing on the offensive end.
Insanity was once defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, a saying most often attributed to Einstein.
If you've followed UNC basketball for any length of time, you know that Roy likes to save his timeouts. He often likes to see if his players can play their way through adversity, particularly during early season games. This is something he learned from one of the top college basketball players of all time, his mentor Dean Smith. It sometimes drove me to distraction when Dean would decide not to use a TO and it sometimes frustrates me to no end when Roy opts not to use one.
But, knowing full well what Roy's philosophy regarding TO's is, I'm not surprised when he let's his players "play on", and our fans shouldn't be either. That's why I rarely complain about him not taking a TO, because I'm not surprised. There are several things I wish he'd do a little differently(ie: use a few more TO's, switch defenses more, spread the court a little more, slow the game down a little in certain situations, ride the hot player a little more). But Roy hasn't coached a thousand college games and won almost 80% of them by not knowing how to coach. And the positive things he does far outweigh the negatives. Far outweigh them.
If you've followed UNC basketball for any length of time, you know that Roy likes to save his timeouts. He often likes to see if his players can play their way through adversity, particularly during early season games. This is something he learned from one of the top college basketball players of all time, his mentor Dean Smith. It sometimes drove me to distraction when Dean would decide not to use a TO and it sometimes frustrates me to no end when Roy opts not to use one.
But, knowing full well what Roy's philosophy regarding TO's is, I'm not surprised when he let's his players "play on", and our fans shouldn't be either. That's why I rarely complain about him not taking a TO, because I'm not surprised. There are several things I wish he'd do a little differently(ie: use a few more TO's, switch defenses more, spread the court a little more, slow the game down a little in certain situations, ride the hot player a little more). But Roy hasn't coached a thousand college games and won almost 80% of them by not knowing how to coach. And the positive things he does far outweigh the negatives. Far outweigh them.
How were the other 3 in foul trouble when tony hadn't even played yet? Haha nice try. Also we didn't have a problem in Maui not having him there when our bigs got in foul trouble. So you whining about "how don't you play him" holds no water. Besides the fact they could've gone small easily if need be.
You are the one whining about luke, I just stated what I saw for the full game not a snippet of it. I didn't know we played Indiana in Maui, wow, that is news to me? Had you paid attention you would have seen us go small with Joel/Nate/Kenny and it didn't work. You do know that Theo is still not available right? All this fixation you have on how Luke played, did not not see Brob out there cause if ya really want to see a kid that struggled in that game then look at BRob or Tony, they played like the freshmen they are.
Now past the game, is it in any way possible for you to engage in reasonable respectful discussion without those blatant attempts to draw fello posters in to conflicts? It is as if all you want to do is bait other posters in to arguments and then step back and claim innocence? Now I am not going to get back in to that nonsense with you, there has been far to much of it. So in the future don't quote my words and don't feel the need to reply to my posts. If others want to get drawn in to your nonsense that is on them, I prefer to discuss with people of a more respectful nature that simply want to discuss topics and exchange thoughts and I simply do not see you as able or desiring to do that. Now you and I need have no further exchanges...
Yeah, it should be obvious to every UNC fan that we can't put a truly effective "small ball" lineup on the court without Theo. At the end of last year, that was perhaps our most effective lineup, and I think it will be again by the end of January to mid-February when we hopefully get Theo back and he gets his game legs back. But right now, the small ball lineup just isn't very effective for us. Kennedy and Tony ended up with 4 fouls and Isaiah fouled out. So in a game where we could have sorely used them more, they combined for 67 minutes. As Dave noted, Roy tried to go small against IU, when our bigs got into foul trouble, and it was a bust.
Our Freshmen played like Freshmen against IU, that's to be expected on the road in a loud, hostile environment. Our bigs got into foul trouble and Isaiah/Joel had sub-par games. Despite all that, we had more OR's, more assists, more FGA's, and less TO's. If we shoot a little better, we win. It's as simple as us not being able to make any kind of shot, not even the freebies.
If/when Theo returns at close to 100%, we once again have the small ball option available to us. That is big for defensive purposes as well as offensive purposes. But a little patience is needed. When I post on this board, I am constantly reminded of this cartoon.
Our Freshmen played like Freshmen against IU, that's to be expected on the road in a loud, hostile environment. Our bigs got into foul trouble and Isaiah/Joel had sub-par games. Despite all that, we had more OR's, more assists, more FGA's, and less TO's. If we shoot a little better, we win. It's as simple as us not being able to make any kind of shot, not even the freebies.
If/when Theo returns at close to 100%, we once again have the small ball option available to us. That is big for defensive purposes as well as offensive purposes. But a little patience is needed. When I post on this board, I am constantly reminded of this cartoon.
Go small(all 3 bigs were NOT in foul trouble-this is the problem, you have people just making stuff up then revolving the rest of their argument on their imaginations) but regardless of that, going small to me is better than putting an injured rusty non unc caliber player on the floor for extended minutes. Anyone who disagrees-see Maui.
Saying "Indiana is not Maui" is nonsensical at best and isn't worth my energy even trying to debate.. and if your argument is that Indiana is another level than Maui- all the more reason not to put said non unc caliber injured player on the floor. And especially not first practically off the bench. Idk how this is even a debate.
Saying "Indiana is not Maui" is nonsensical at best and isn't worth my energy even trying to debate.. and if your argument is that Indiana is another level than Maui- all the more reason not to put said non unc caliber injured player on the floor. And especially not first practically off the bench. Idk how this is even a debate.
His post was absolutely made up. Literally a revisionist apologist post. Literally excused missing an open layup by saying a guy 3 feet from even being close to making a play being there. Get outta here.
Yep. And then he writes so many words covering it all up in the lame hope and attempt no one will recognize hes revolving his whole argument around falsehoods. But hey if you throw enough tired cliches and words around many people buy it or grow tired of it and stop reading.
Yeah, it should be obvious to every UNC fan that we can't put a truly effective "small ball" lineup on the court without Theo. At the end of last year, that was perhaps our most effective lineup, and I think it will be again by the end of January to mid-February when we hopefully get Theo back and he gets his game legs back. But right now, the small ball lineup just isn't very effective for us. Kennedy and Tony ended up with 4 fouls and Isaiah fouled out. So in a game where we could have sorely used them more, they combined for 67 minutes. As Dave noted, Roy tried to go small against IU, when our bigs got into foul trouble, and it was a bust.
Our Freshmen played like Freshmen against IU, that's to be expected on the road in a loud, hostile environment. Our bigs got into foul trouble and Isaiah/Joel had sub-par games. Despite all that, we had more OR's, more assists, more FGA's, and less TO's. If we shoot a little better, we win. It's as simple as us not being able to make any kind of shot, not even the freebies.
If/when Theo returns at close to 100%, we once again have the small ball option available to us. That is big for defensive purposes as well as offensive purposes. But a little patience is needed. When I post on this board, I am constantly reminded of this cartoon.
And yet archer, with all the adversity we saw in that first half, we fought and clawed back, even shooting as poorly as we did to make it a close game near the end, what was it like 4 and we had the ball? Lot of teams would have rolled over and lost that one by 30 considering how strong IU came out of the gate and the fact they really never wilted and we never really found our stride. Had we just hit our free throws this is a different game, even as poorly as we shot the ball and as good as IU played, hit our free throws and this is a totally different game, how many front end of one & ones did we miss?
You can call it what ever you like but I would suggest you go back and watch it, it is there, Bryant was in great shot blocking position and Luke had to alter it or get blocked. I didn't have a tape measure to measure the distance away Bryant was but even if he was 3 feet away that is great shot blocking position for Bryant with his length. Folks are acting as if Luke missed a wide open lay up and that just was not the case, no matter how much anyone feels the need to slam Luke. No, Luke didn't have a great game but we did not lose that game because of his 8mins, sorry if that doesn't play to your narrative.
What else you planning on making excuses for? Go ahead. Because if you are going to excuse that play then you have to excuse literally half the plays in the damn game.
I don't know of too many UNC players through the years that have not missed a wide open lay-in . . anyone thats ever played ball has done it at least once I can promise you that.
Hell, Kenny has missed 2 wide open lay-ups in the first half of today's game . .
Hell, Kenny has missed 2 wide open lay-ups in the first half of today's game . .
He's also hit 5 three pointers. It tends to stand out more when you're in over your head like Luke was against iu and your presence is not helping the team.
Dsouthr has tried to make all sorts of bizarre excuses for reasons why Luke should have been in that game.
So, we should not call out the missed layups because someone has did it at some point? No. You call them all out. And, you own up to them. Don't excuse them.
Nobody is saying Maye should be kicked off the team for missing the layup. They are saying it was a terrible play and he has to make them. I said explicitly in my first post it very well could have been rust, but he needs to make them.
Nothing wrong with calling out a bad play. Every player should be called out when they do something bad, and they are.
It is the ones calling out stuff that wasn't bad and acting like it was bad that are the ones who should be harped on. Like, people criticizing a god damn HOF coach are the ones that really make me scratch my head.
Well, Luke should have been in the game. He just needs to make those plays. He could have played probably less due to rust and waited for a game like Radford to jump in with more minutes, but gotta make those plays.
I guess I just have yet to see Luke do anything in this program that tells me he's a guy who should get anything but spot minutes for a great unc team. I keep hearing how he's gonna be a great stretch four and all this stuff. He hustles and gives good effort but as I've said that shouldn't be the standard to play ball at unc. Stillman brings just as much if not more when he's on the court, and he's not even discussed.
I'm aware. My whole point was we played in Maui without Luke maye and tore it up. Why he needed to come into a game at Indiana almost first off the bench coming off injury is questionable to me. And it wasn't foul trouble like the wordsmith would have us believe.
Anyways it is what it is.
Anyways it is what it is.
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