Making shots is hands down our #1 problem and something we can all agree on.
Stats and stuff (Louisville game)...
- Thread starter gary-7
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Been a long time since we lost and officiatng has been an ongoing and relevant topic throughout our winning streak.... but somehow when we lose it's off limits? GMAB.
And if you think that game last night was evenly called you were watching another sport.
We need a junkyard dog or two......
A Brian Reese, Stackhouse, Vince, McCants, Danny Green, PJ. Someone with a "I don't give a ****" mentality. I think Theo has it. He showed it with his drive and dunk attempt that drew the foul.
But for the most part our guys go in the corner and pout when the going gets tough.
I watched Meeks go up soft and get rejected and he looked at the bench and said "that was a foul". Another time Jackson gets a rebound and the Louisville player ripped it away from him.
Toughness can't be taught. We continue to take a knife to a gun fight.
With all that said, we were in it til the end. Saturday night will tell us a lot IMO. Biggest game of the year to date.
A Brian Reese, Stackhouse, Vince, McCants, Danny Green, PJ. Someone with a "I don't give a ****" mentality. I think Theo has it. He showed it with his drive and dunk attempt that drew the foul.
But for the most part our guys go in the corner and pout when the going gets tough.
I watched Meeks go up soft and get rejected and he looked at the bench and said "that was a foul". Another time Jackson gets a rebound and the Louisville player ripped it away from him.
Toughness can't be taught. We continue to take a knife to a gun fight.
With all that said, we were in it til the end. Saturday night will tell us a lot IMO. Biggest game of the year to date.
Who the hell said it was off limits? Check your reading comprehension bud .... And bc I saw it as fine and not whine and bitch I was watching a different sport? Ohhhh nooooo dare anyone disagree with you? FOH with that weak ish ... And again if you would just READ you would see that I included people bitching even when we won
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We played like goat dung got beat but had a chance at the end..no, we can't play like this and win it all now..but it's Feb 2 and we have a good shot as anyone
You're the one throwing around crap about believing in a "conspiracy" because we point out bad officiating. I READ just fine. So let me put it in blunter terms: Your response was sophomoric and simple-minded.
No your constant whining and bitching about referees is what is simple minded ...again since you can't understand.. I was asking a question ..that's it nothing more nothing less ..why is that so hard for you to understand??!
And because my opinion differs from yours I'm simple minded? Lol people like you make me laugh man
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I didn't read the prior posts but at the 8 minute mark I knew we couldn't win.
If you watched the game, they were fouling unc any time they drove or had an inside shot which weren't being called.
Without an ability to hit a three, we had no response or ability to score at that point.
It was what it was.
If you watched the game, they were fouling unc any time they drove or had an inside shot which weren't being called.
Without an ability to hit a three, we had no response or ability to score at that point.
It was what it was.
I thought the officiating was relatively even in terms of good/bad calls, but to me there's no doubt that a pretty physical style of play was allowed in this particular game, which certainly didn't do us any favors. I don't think it played as much of a role as the shooting slump in disrupting our offensive flow, but when you're not hitting from outside AND you're getting bodied up inside the three-point line with or without the ball, it's tough to find your rhythm. Overall just an ugly night for us, in a road game on a short turnaround against a pretty good team coming off a loss ... and yet we were still close at the end. We have made it to February with only three losses overall and lead the conference with only one loss. I'm optimistic about the rest of the season.
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Nobody said there weren't (in fact there usually are in basketball), but that does not nearly mitigate the fact that they were allowed to commit illegal screens and mayhem throughout the game, and it affected the outcome. In other words, there may have been missed calls both ways, but if we're looking at the balance of the officiating, we'd have been flipped in the air like a first grader after a fat guy sat on the other end of a playground seesaw. It is what it is and I make no apologies for calling it that way.
The simple fact is the zebras allowed and enabled Louisville to play their style of basketball --- which, in all honesty, is dirty --- and as I said in the OP, we weren't able to overcome it. We are gonna get games like that (unfortunately), and when order breaks down our guys need to be strong through uncalled contact and make shots to make them pay. We didn't. We lost.
FWIW I respect all persons' argument on this thread.
I think most everyone agrees that the primary reason we lost last game was poor shooting, not officiating.
I also would say there likely are missed calls both ways, in most every game. I suppose sometimes it benefits us. I suppose there isn't a conspiracy against us (unless you want to buy that the AFAM scandal and NCAA witch hunt can bleed into officiating... I sure hope that's not true)
I don't get why coaches and the TV media make such a big deal out of a foul called (a "moving screen" foul on Lou, where there wasn't contact).... but don't call out all the illegal moving screens and offensive-player- initiated contact fouls that WEREN'T called?
I also think (maybe to Gary's point?) UNC's brand (philosophy, style of play) of basketball, is high speed, high motion, (not grind it out hockey, or football line-of-scrimmage).....is exactly what the rules changes were supposed to encourage: more open, faster, more scoring; less physical, grinding, ugly basketball (aka Big East / Big Ten ball for most teams in those conferences... plus of course LOUISVILLE)....
but the Heels will always be at a disadvantage if the ugly physical high contact (high actual fouls, but with few fouls called) is allowed, because teams who play that way will get the advantage of playing that way to their benefit and the Heels disadvantage.
I'd call it: the other teams masking lesser talent and masking that they are not as good as the Heels at playing basketball the way the "new rules" intend, or are supposed to encourage.
Its not as if the Heels can just flip a switch and become a team that reciprocates - converting to a tackle football style of play.
I guess you could say maybe the Heels would have an advantage if officials were geared toward calling many fouls early to discourage the high contact, against the new rules, brand of basketball. I'll enjoy that when I see it but I'm not holding my breath.
b
I think most everyone agrees that the primary reason we lost last game was poor shooting, not officiating.
I also would say there likely are missed calls both ways, in most every game. I suppose sometimes it benefits us. I suppose there isn't a conspiracy against us (unless you want to buy that the AFAM scandal and NCAA witch hunt can bleed into officiating... I sure hope that's not true)
I don't get why coaches and the TV media make such a big deal out of a foul called (a "moving screen" foul on Lou, where there wasn't contact).... but don't call out all the illegal moving screens and offensive-player- initiated contact fouls that WEREN'T called?
I also think (maybe to Gary's point?) UNC's brand (philosophy, style of play) of basketball, is high speed, high motion, (not grind it out hockey, or football line-of-scrimmage).....is exactly what the rules changes were supposed to encourage: more open, faster, more scoring; less physical, grinding, ugly basketball (aka Big East / Big Ten ball for most teams in those conferences... plus of course LOUISVILLE)....
but the Heels will always be at a disadvantage if the ugly physical high contact (high actual fouls, but with few fouls called) is allowed, because teams who play that way will get the advantage of playing that way to their benefit and the Heels disadvantage.
I'd call it: the other teams masking lesser talent and masking that they are not as good as the Heels at playing basketball the way the "new rules" intend, or are supposed to encourage.
Its not as if the Heels can just flip a switch and become a team that reciprocates - converting to a tackle football style of play.
I guess you could say maybe the Heels would have an advantage if officials were geared toward calling many fouls early to discourage the high contact, against the new rules, brand of basketball. I'll enjoy that when I see it but I'm not holding my breath.
b
It wouldn't be so bad if teams that consistently play that hand checking, physical style(ie: dook and UofL) didn't routinely average more Made FT's than their opponents attempt, especially with dook living and dying by the three. Makes no sense.
If we could have hit 3s it would have nullified the football game in the paint.
However, nobody even was putting up shots outside for the longest time beyond Marcus Paige doing a gallery of how overrated he is.
However, nobody even was putting up shots outside for the longest time beyond Marcus Paige doing a gallery of how overrated he is.
Does not shooting well for a few games negate 3 1/2 years of great play? Don't desert Marcus, he'll come around.
gary buddy, chill my friend, you have big time respect here for your views but my man, I am not gonna agree with ya 100% of the time, some times I have to look for a reason to disagree I confess but understand at times some will not agree completely. I don't know that I even want folks to agree with me all the time cause sometimes I just like to argue! LOL
But we all on the same side here, we all want the same thing. Hard thing for me to accept is folks don't always see the same thing in the same way I do, some times I just want to ask that other person if they are dumb or blind or both today? LOL Point is I am not always right, heck, I remember this one time about 10yrs ago that, well I was right then to but I was the only one that agreed I was!
I just want to caution that folks we know are Tar Heels, can at times take what we say the wrong way, and at times just don't see it like we do, that is OK, it really is, it is OK to agree to disagree among friends and in the end, isn't that what we really are? Heck man, I even agreed with steat this one time a couple years ago, I was right but felt he needed a win! LOL
PEACE is what I am preachin !!!
i Think what upsets me is the rules were supposed to limit the physical play, the moving screens, the holding & jersey grabs, the over the back stuff. Like it or not, UNC under Dean and he taught Roy, we have never been that overtly physical team, a big reason why we do not get away with as much is we are not taught to "adjust the rules" to get away with things the rules do not allow. Thinking was maybe now the rules would be enforced as written but we now see it is back to green flag racin for some of these programs and yeah, it was green flag for some stuff last night, it usually is when duke plays as well.
I am sorry but you hand the ball off to CUTTING GUARD AS A BIG MAN AND THEN ROLL DIRECTLY IN TO THE PATH OF THE DEFENDER, THAT IS A MOVING SCREEN. That happened more times when Lville was on offense last night than not, sorry if that comes off as fussing about the refs but it is not supposed to be allowed under the rules of the game.
I HATE talking about the refs, I especially hate it after a loss, but if you are going to ask me if the refs tend to go out of their way at times to call fouls on our players that they do not call on the opposing players, maybe it is the Tar Heel fan in me but yeah, at times it does not look right. I am OK with some home cooking but there has to be some limit and last night IMO things just didn't add up right in my opinion. I do not suggest that is why we lost, we didn't play well enough to win that game but I do see it as a factor if I am being honest.
That has to be the dumbest post I've ever seen here. Have you forgotten just how good he is. He wasn't the only one missing, suggest you look at the box score.
Oh, no worries Dave... it would just be nice to see that disagreement come without the insinuation that those of us who recognize an officiating deficit are wearing tinfoil hats... leading with a pejorative isn't the best way to enter a conversation. So if my reaction was a bit salty, that was the reason.gary buddy, chill my friend, you have big time respect here for your views but my man, I am not gonna agree with ya 100% of the time, some times I have to look for a reason to disagree I confess but understand at times some will not agree completely. I don't know that I even want folks to agree with me all the time cause sometimes I just like to argue! LOL
But we all on the same side here, we all want the same thing. Hard thing for me to accept is folks don't always see the same thing in the same way I do, some times I just want to ask that other person if they are dumb or blind or both today? LOL Point is I am not always right, heck, I remember this one time about 10yrs ago that, well I was right then to but I was the only one that agreed I was!
I just want to caution that folks we know are Tar Heels, can at times take what we say the wrong way, and at times just don't see it like we do, that is OK, it really is, it is OK to agree to disagree among friends and in the end, isn't that what we really are? Heck man, I even agreed with steat this one time a couple years ago, I was right but felt he needed a win! LOL
PEACE is what I am preachin !!!
(Of course that said, I'm chuckling as I type this, because if certain posters could have been privy to a couple of conversations I've had with former ACC officials over the years, they might have some serious questions about the integrity of the process...
)
DEAD ON! THANK YOU for saving me from having to type out essentially the same post.
Dean Smith, Coach Gut and Roy all coach(ed) basketball as it was MEANT to be played and as the rules SPECIFY - as a NON-CONTACT SPORT.
When announcers say so and so plays "tough", what they really mean is "They foul constantly and count on the refs only calling a few of them." Sadly this is far too often the case.
If we are hitting a decent percentage of our shots we beat most of these hockey style teams most of the time. Caveat is though, it is much harder to make shots when being hacked, bumped, grabbed and shoved.
Even a low but decent percentage of our threes go in and we would have 1 loss max so far this season though.
I am well aware of what I said.
I am not entirely sure if this is accurate, but I think he is now a 2 time pre-season ACC Player of the Year who hasn't made an ACC All-American 1st team in both years. That is a testament to overrated.
He can shoot and play decent defense, but if you take away his shooting which this year pretty effectively has, you just have a decent defensive player.
Cory, you should be in the diplomatic corps... that was beautiful
Pretty succinct summary.
Great post soapy, that is pretty much what I think gary has been saying and for sure what I have been saying. "Physical" is a code word for pushing and shoving. Some refs allow more of that than others and yes for absolute sure some teams seem able to get away with that style of play constantly. It is not the kind of game Roy teaches so in those games that a lil "extra" is allowed it does put us at a disadvantage. And yes, we do have to over come that lil extra advantage by playing even better. But if you are in a 100yd race, it isn't fun to have to spot your opponent the first 10yds.
Some teams are taught to "push" the rules, yes, believe it or not coaches teach players how to break the rules and get away with every day or did you not realize how the flop, the jersey grab, the jump shooter jumping in to the defender is taught by a certain coach in durham? The rules are in place, it is just a matter of the fouls being called. Funny thing about the refs whistle, if it blows often enough you see things change but it does not always blow when it should.
In addition, coaches study the refs and over time get a book on them, what they trend to call and what a particular refs may trend to allow and you bet they exploit that. Now maybe that is good coaching but there are refs that either really like particular coaches or really do not and believe it or not refs do hold grudges. But it is a fact, VERY FEW coaches would be able to get away with what K does and not get the T or be booted out of the gym. Refs do many times go in to a game where duke is involved wanting to keep him calm, not really wanting to get in to one of those classic red faced K cursing barrages. Should not be that way but it is and it has been allowed so long now that it is not going to change until that coach retires.
My goodness! Let's just throw one of the best right under the bus and run back over him. Don't you kinda think he was just a little hindered by injuries last season AND this one as well? Yes he is in a slump right now but he isn't the only great Tar Heel to have that happen. Remember this? .............................. Donald Williams went 8-38 from 3 in seven Jan/Feb games during 92-93 @UNC_Basketball season. Hit 10-of-14 3s in Final Four.
I remember that well, Mikey. Thats why it was such a pleasant surprise when he sent off in the Dance
Great stat, thanks for that Mike.
and yeah... I'm 100% in Marcus' corner, he's the heart and soul of this Heels team.
A kid who pound for pound is one of the toughest to play at UNC and has carried this team for a lot his career gets labelled as overrated. Didn't realize this was Rupp Rafters east
Wow, and I actually enjoy most of your posts and I'm well aware I have not nearly as many posts as most of the legends on this board..however, if you think that all Marcus brings is D if his shot isn't falling (which we all know will) he brings soooo much leadership to this team as anyone to theirs in past history.. Relax, he'll start sinking them and I'm offended that you'd say something like that about Marcus, misinformed
He has been injured however many times and everyone says boohoo injuries. People have worst injuries and return fine all the time. He has regressed in %s the past 2 years. He was once great. Now he is nothing special. He played himself out of the draft by doing nothing but regressing.
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I am not sure how much leadership he brings. Maybe he does bring a lot. But this is a team that has been plagued by people not on track.
Tokoto, Johnson... questionably Meeks.
I mean, if you are constantly strugglung with consistency, motor, and minds straight... how good is the leadership?
I mean, Paige was an excellent Sophmore. A good Junior.
Right now? An above average senior.
And I hope to god he shuts me up and averages 20 points here on out. But, right now there are games where he is hurting us especially, when we are counting on his outside shot to stop defenses like Louisville's and to clear the lane.
Let me put it this way. No teams right now are scared of paige.
And paige keeos shooting soooo deep shots. Which is fine if you are making. But, if you aren"t why are you shooting 30 foot 3s?
I want him to excel. But, does anyone have him in the top 2 players for UNC right now?
I don't.
I have Johnson Berry... and maybe Paige.
And being overrated isn't saying too much when you are preseason poy over and over. But, he is struggling and we need him to not struggle.
1) What does Marcus have to do with JP. News flash - JP isn't on the team this year. And what do you think is wrong with Brice? He is temperamental, but he has been a monster so far this year, a contender for POY..... wow - I hope Marcus can get this POY candidate slacker's head right.
2) The 3-pt line is 21'9". 9+ feet short of 30 feet. That means MP could lay down with toes on the 3 point line, arms outstretched over his head, and not reach 30 feet from the hoop. Now that you've visualized that, how many 30 footers has Marcus taken? I'd be surprised if you could find one. Maybe one or two at end of halves, or when shot clock is in desperation mode. I doubt he's taken ANY others. Despite what you think, he's WAY TOO SMART to jack up those sorts of shots. Its something that is great about him, how he's an intelligent coach on the court.
3)I'm fine with "no teams being scared of Paige". You know this how? Fine. He put 30 on FSU and has several games of over 15. I am willing to bet he has a breakout game soon, and gets back in a groove. And I also bet it WON'T be because other teams have just decided he can never shoot, score again, so they can play off him. That's just crazy.
4) regarding what sort of player he is.... are you saying that overall, when all is said and done, you think he'll have regressed from Soph to Senior year? Nobody doubts he is shooting poorly now, but unless he is masking some physical or emotional issue, I think few doubt he'll get his groove back. Regardless, he is an excellent leader on the court - mature, smart, gets people to the right places at the right times, makes the right decisions - like a coach on the court. I am sure Roy sees him this way. And I know for a fact, that though he isn't a "scream, punch and throw things" sort of guy, he has - and does continue to - take it upon himself to hold others on the team accountable. All the players say this is his team.
5) so Berry and Brice maybe are playing better than MP right now. So what? That's a good thing that we have multiple weapons. What is the recourse? Bench Marcus? Brilliant. Tell him to play better? Brilliant again. Its too bad Roy and Marcus didn't think of "play better" on their own. BTW you can't name Brice because "his head isn't right" or "he's not consistent".
6) Look at the UNC career leaders pinned at the top of this board: I can't find all the listings, but I'll guess, based on where he is now that Marcus will finish in these places for career UNC stats: total points 10th to 12th; 3pointers made 1st already and will build a record hard to ever catch; assists 7th or 8th; steals 4th or 5th; FT% 1st or 2nd. Can you see that he has excelled in all aspects of the game, for a guard, on the offensive and defensive end of the court? Statistically, I'd say he will go down as one of the top 6-7 players ever to play at UNC (top 10 easy). And this is not at Podunk U - this is at arguably the most storied program of successful college players (many 3 and 4 year players) in the history of college basketball. He has his place high among the list of very noteworthy Heels legends.
And none of this even speaks at all about what a tough, intelligent (on the court and in the classroom, great integrity, great representative of the UNC basketball brand, great character, likeable, good student athlete young man Marcus is. At a time (with AFAM, JP, PJ, Rashad ramblings, players with dope issues and becoming-a-daddy issues) when the program needs him the most.
So - just a suggestion: cut him a bit of slack and appreciate him while we have him. Players like him don't come around often. Some schools never have total package kids like him.
Heelicious, I wish I could like a post twice.
Maybe more than twice.
I love a good laugh, a good dig at K or Doochies, or excellent banter about stats/recruiting/rotations etc. But bloody hell, that was close to the best post I've read on here.... ever.
Maybe more than twice.
I love a good laugh, a good dig at K or Doochies, or excellent banter about stats/recruiting/rotations etc. But bloody hell, that was close to the best post I've read on here.... ever.
Count me in the crowd that thinks his struggles aren't a huge deal as of now. Would it be nice if he was shooting 45% from 3 and scoring 20+ every night? Sure, but we really don't need that right now. I'd be fine if he didn't score a point for the remainder of the regular season as long as he was back to his usual Marcus come tournament time when we'll actually need him.
