Stats and stuff (Monmouth game)...

[gary-7]

...and I'm pissed. I had planned to go to this one but my travel plans got waylaid. *&^%-it!

Stats
- as expected this was a game of intensity from our end, i.e., if we played with intensity it would be no problem but if we let down Monmouth is a dangerous team. We let up late in the first half and let em catch up --- then after what I'm sure was a Roy blistering, we came out intense in the second half and just like that it's a 17-5 run, fueled largely by their frustration with being guarded intensely.

- congrats to Kanler Coker for delivering the biscuits with a hat trick of FTs

- Speaking of FTs we made 33. They sure as hell fouled us enough. 71.7% is decent.

- Unfortunately, other than JJ we shot poorly, finishing 7/20 from 3 and only 43% total FG%.

- Speaking of JJ, I could see his arc got back on track during the break. 6/9 from 3. Yowza.

-Nice line for Kennedy, 17, 12 and 3.

- Our periods of sloppiness glared through with 17 TOs, mostly unforced. Some of those passes --- yikes. And speaking of sloppiness we blew 10 Secondary Breaks. Not good,

- The good news on the defensive end we held them to under 33% FGs.

Stuff
- This is a team that throws us right into our favorite briar patch. They play at a high tempo come hell or high water, and it looked like we might score 70 in the first half until we lost focus and intensity.

- Yet another 4-out team --- at first our inside strength was an advantage and then we relaxed in defense and it became a disadvantage... and then we pounded them again.

- King Rice must've remembered all those illegal screens he had to deal with as a PG, because Monmouth was using them on a Big-10 level, including the one that gave JB a charley-horse (and us a scare) in the first half. While I like the way his guys have fun I was a bit disappointed in how mouthy some of his guys were (mostly the Oklahoma transfer, which I suppose shouldn't be surprising)

- Good to see Stilman back after a foot sprain. while I want to see 7th get as many minutes as possible in games like this, Stilman is Roy's ace-in-the-hole for a backup PG when it counts.

Arright --- playtime's over. Time to get serious for ACC play!

 

[Ozheelfan]

Thanks Gary. Haven't had the chance to watch. Looking forward to seeing Justin's continued AA-worthy play!

 

[tarheels0015]

anybody else see King Rice emotional postgame interview ...

 

[gauchoheel]

I wish the crowd would be like they were when Coker hit the biscuits FT all game. Craziest it got all night by far, which doesn't really make sense to me. 90% of those people won't go get Bojangles tomorrow.

 

[tarheels0015]

King nailed it about Roy:

"...I hope people appreciate what they have in him cause sometimes I think even from the inside, people don't understand how lucky they are to have a man like Roy Williams run your program. He's top notch as a man, as a coach, as a mentor and we are lucky that he's the coach at North Carolina. And we should always remember how much he loves this place, just listen....if you ever feel funny just listen to how much he loves North Carolina and it will make you love it more."

What a shining testament to Roy !

 

[Heelicious]

anybody else see King Rice emotional postgame interview ...

I didnt see it but watched the game via dvr recording since I had a run practice tonight

I had to watch the hand shake line 3 times. It looked like King was really pissed and pointed out someone or something to Roy he didn't like and gave Roy an earful. Roy just moved on pretty quickly. Like king thought someone was showing his team up or something.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it

King sure does let his guys talk a lot.

I have to laugh at comments that king might be on the short list to step in at UNC after Roy. I'd have to think there are maybe 20 better candidates than King. And generally I like king.

 

[gary-7]

Thanks Gary. Haven't had the chance to watch. Looking forward to seeing Justin's continued AA-worthy play!

Yessir... and it doesn't hurt that Knox was in the house to see it

 

[gary-7]

I didnt see it but watched the game via dvr recording since I had a run practice tonight

I had to watch the hand shake line 3 times. It looked like King was really pissed and pointed out someone or something to Roy he didn't like and gave Roy an earful. Roy just moved on pretty quickly. Like king thought someone was showing his team up or something.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it

King sure does let his guys talk a lot.

I have to laugh at comments that king might be on the short list to step in at UNC after Roy. I'd have to think there are maybe 20 better candidates than King. And generally I like king.

I felt a bit better about the whole deal after seeing Adam Lucas pointed out that during one of the incidents King told his guys to not embarrass him in this building.

 

[Heelicious]

There was a lot good in that game, but sure some stuff that really needs to be cleaned up.

Along with the lazy sloppy lapses that Gary mentioned, leading to way to many TOs (we must've had close to 15 in the second half alone)....

Seventh needs to find a way to be an asset (not a liability) when he is in the game. I feel its like a 80+% chance of a turnover any time its in his hands..... because he seems to think he is in only to make some spectacular highlight reel, win-the-game-on-this-posession type play instead of just calming the F down and running a set play. That - and his shot is so atrocious - look at his FTs.... 0-4 tonight and he seems lucky to draw iron. Even on slow set shots, his form is so crooked and broken it is pure randomness where the ball will go.

Meeks had decent numbers, but for the life of me, I don't understand how he ever expects the ball to go in, if he never gets the ball above the rim, if a defender is anywhere in the neighborhood. Can't they work on this in practice with him?

I won't comment on Britt except to say about the nicest thing I can for him..... I just feel bad for him at this point. I know he has worked hard and has a good "team first" attitude. It is too bad that he is in such a funk that he can't throw it in the ocean..... but then he should start by only trying shots going to the rim, or 8 ft in, where maybe he can build his confidence by seeing the ball go in. There is a reason teams are leaving him alone to jack up 3s......

 

[gary-7]

There was a lot good in that game, but sure some stuff that really needs to be cleaned up.

Along with the lazy sloppy lapses that Gary mentioned, leading to way to many TOs (we must've had close to 15 in the second half alone)....

Seventh needs to find a way to be an asset (not a liability) when he is in the game. I feel its like a 80+% chance of a turnover any time its in his hands..... because he seems to think he is in only to make some spectacular highlight reel, win-the-game-on-this-posession type play instead of just calming the F down and running a set play. That - and his shot is so atrocious - look at his FTs.... 0-4 tonight and he seems lucky to draw iron. Even on slow set shots, his form is so crooked and broken it is pure randomness where the ball will go.

Meeks had decent numbers, but for the life of me, I don't understand how he ever expects the ball to go in, if he never gets the ball above the rim, if a defender is anywhere in the neighborhood. Can't they work on this in practice with him?

I won't comment on Britt except to say about the nicest thing I can for him..... I just feel bad for him at this point. I know he has worked hard and has a good "team first" attitude. It is too bad that he is in such a funk that he can't throw it in the ocean..... but then he should start by only trying shots going to the rim, or 8 ft in, where maybe he can build his confidence by seeing the ball go in. There is a reason teams are leaving him alone to jack up 3s......

Also just heard Roy say JB had the grunge that's going around and had to have IVs to even play. I thought he looked out of sorts, but to JB's credit when he's in the game things just go better.

 

[coryfly]

I think one of his guys tripped Rush at the end of the game. Maybe. Maybe not. Dude is kind of all emotion so who knows.

 

[Butterbutt44]

Luke once again In before Bradley

And we wonder why recruiting is so screwed

 

[tarheel0910]

Luke once again In before Bradley

And we wonder why recruiting is so screwed

Bradley ended up with more minutes though. He had 14 to Luke's 11.

 

[DSouthr]

First, excuse me but gonna stand up for King, he is not a dirty coach and he does not coach his players to play dirty. But he does bring the fight out in them, they play with a lot of emotion, frankly that is not a bad thing. His team was over matched but his team went there to win this game and not just be fodder for the feeding frenzy. UNC could do a heck of a lot worse than King, when Roy does decide to hang things up. The man clearly LOVES UNC and the man clearly LOVES Roy, those are 2 fine things from a potential future UNC head coach.

As for the game, not the worst by any means that I have seen us play coming off Christmas break, actually one of the better efforts coming off that break and considering Joel was really sick explains even more.

If I am Justin Knox and I am in person for that game I have to be really impressed with how I see Justin Jackson playing and especially in the way he is featured. Considering that if Knox were to come to UNC he would very likely be taking the spot that JJ vacates for the draft. Tatum is more of a 4 for duke, even when they have 2 other big men in, he puts the ball on the floor and drives but he does not have the green light jump shooting that Justin (either one of them) have, his game translates more to JJ than Tatum. That was a really great game to see in person to see that point.

 

[Butterbutt44]

Bradley ended up with more minutes though. He had 14 to Luke's 11.

Still very weird seeing Luke come on the court first

 

[gary-7]

Luke once again In before Bradley

And we wonder why recruiting is so screwed

It's a matter of position and rotation, especially against a 4-out offense, and has no affect on recruiting.

 

[Butterbutt44]

It's a matter of position and rotation, especially against a 4-out offense, and has no affect on recruiting.

If you say so

 

[tarheel0910]

First, excuse me but gonna stand up for King, he is not a dirty coach and he does not coach his players to play dirty. But he does bring the fight out in them, they play with a lot of emotion, frankly that is not a bad thing. His team was over matched but his team went there to win this game and not just be fodder for the feeding frenzy. UNC could do a heck of a lot worse than King, when Roy does decide to hang things up. The man clearly LOVES UNC and the man clearly LOVES Roy, those are 2 fine things from a potential future UNC head coach.

Agreed. I usually give a team the benefit of the doubt when they play us at home and is lead by a UNC guy. That game has got to be very emotional for the coach and I imagine the players are trying extra hard to get a win because of the connection. I have no problem with the way they played and King seems to have the program moving in the right direction.

 

[gary-7]

If you say so

I do and it doesn't.

 

[imajericho]

Still very weird seeing Luke come on the court first

If Hicks needs subbed first it will by Maye coming in. If it is Meeks, it will be Bradley. Simple as that.

 

[tarheel0910]

If Hicks needs subbed first it will by Maye coming in. If it is Meeks, it will be Bradley. Simple as that.

Which means most of the time it will be Maye coming in for Hicks since Hicks usually picks up two fouls during warm ups.

 

[Butterbutt44]

I do and it doesn't.

Imo that's not a fact

 

[Butterbutt44]

If Hicks needs subbed first it will by Maye coming in. If it is Meeks, it will be Bradley. Simple as that.

And I think it's nonsensical
I get Roy doesn't want two c on the court but it's a terrible look

 

[gauchoheel]

Tony ought to be subbing for both of them in my opinion. He is just a much better player than Luke. He shouldnt be playing less than 20 a night. Don't over think it because Tony is a "5". He's a better offensive player, defensive player, and rebounder.

 

[2DDIMOND]

And I think it's nonsensical
I get Roy doesn't want two c on the court but it's a terrible look

You need to get yourself a D1 coaching job, you've got this all figured out. I'll stick with the Hall of Famer we've got.

 

[Butterbutt44]

You need to get yourself a D1 coaching job, you've got this all figured out. I'll stick with the Hall of Famer we've got.

Yawn

 

[dadika13]

Tony ought to be subbing for both of them in my opinion. He is just a much better player than Luke. He shouldnt be playing less than 20 a night. Don't over think it because Tony is a "5". He's a better offensive player, defensive player, and rebounder.

This type of sound, rational logic is not welcomed around most of the posters of this forum.

 

[2DDIMOND]

This type of sound, rational logic is not welcomed around most of the posters of this forum.

No one thinks Luke is better than Tony. There is just a faction of people on here that think Luke is a valuable contributor to UNC basketball & deserves X number of minutes per game. Then there is another faction of people that think Luke is not an ACC caliber player & should only get mop up minutes. I challenge you to find anywhere that someone said Luke was better than Tony. I'm in the camp that thinks Tony needs 25+ min per game, & I'm in the camp that thinks Luke can play, & should get 10-12 min per game.

 

[tarheel0910]

No one thinks Luke is better than Tony. There is just a faction of people on here that think Luke is a valuable contributor to UNC basketball & deserves X number of minutes per game. Then there is another faction of people that think Luke is not an ACC caliber player & should only get mop up minutes. I challenge you to find anywhere that someone said Luke was better than Tony. I'm in the camp that thinks Tony needs 25+ min per game, & I'm in the camp that thinks Luke can play, & should get 10-12 min per game.

I agree about Tony getting that many minutes, but 10-12 is too much for Luke during ACC play in my opinion. I would think his minutes will be reduced once Theo gets back.

 

[dadika13]

No one thinks Luke is better than Tony. There is just a faction of people on here that think Luke is a valuable contributor to UNC basketball & deserves X number of minutes per game. Then there is another faction of people that think Luke is not an ACC caliber player & should only get mop up minutes. I challenge you to find anywhere that someone said Luke was better than Tony. I'm in the camp that thinks Tony needs 25+ min per game, & I'm in the camp that thinks Luke can play, & should get 10-12 min per game.

Ok....so Tony played 14 last night, so he needs another 11 min in your scenario because Luke got his 11.

Where are we taking those 11 from? Kennedy played 24 and Hicks played 25. You want them down to 18-19 min each? I certainly don't.

My ideal ACC min:
Hicks - 25
Kennedy - 22
Tony - 22
Maye - 5

 

[GoToHeelDook]

This typically frustrates me too Butter, to the point that I had to figure out why this is the case so I've been keeping a close eye on rotation.

It's not foolproof but here's what I've gathered. For whatever reason, Roy does not play Tony and Kennedy in the game at the same time. I guess because if you do that- there's no one really to play the four. Since IH is usually first out, whether that be foul trouble or just Roy's comfortable with rotating in that order, that means that Luke comes in and plays the four with Kennedy. Then TB comes in, and when it's time for Kennedy to break, we see Isaiah come in again.

I don't love it, and I'm sure it will change. Irregardless of how good Kennedy can be- I think TB needs to be on the floor for 25 minutes in March for us to hang another banner. When playing at their very best, this team's best lineup will likely be JB, Theo, JJ, IH, and TB with Kenny and Kennedy off first. I like that seven a lot.

Luke once again In before Bradley

And we wonder why recruiting is so screwed

 

[tmatheny]

TB is much more gifted player than Luke. But we would struggle against 4 out teams defensively with Meeks and TB on court for the same time.

To me it's not a question of Luke over TB but more of a position. If anything go small and bring in a guard and move JJ down to 4 when playing against 4 out.

Hopefully Theo can help with this once he returns. And there is no harm in getting Luke minutes right now bc he will be needed in ACC at some point due to foul trouble and/or injury. Roy usually has a reason for his moves. He isn't thinking in that moment but what will help this team down the road.

 

[gary-7]

TB is much more gifted player than Luke. But we would struggle against 4 out teams defensively with Meeks and TB on court for the same time.

To me it's not a question of Luke over TB but more of a position. If anything go small and bring in a guard and move JJ down to 4 when playing against 4 out.

Hopefully Theo can help with this once he returns. And there is no harm in getting Luke minutes right now bc he will be needed in ACC at some point due to foul trouble and/or injury. Roy usually has a reason for his moves. He isn't thinking in that moment but what will help this team down the road.

All true... not to mention that Luke is a damned good player and has performed quite well and will continue to be an important cog in the rotation even after Theo returns.

 

[gary-7]

Tony ought to be subbing for both of them in my opinion. He is just a much better player than Luke. He shouldnt be playing less than 20 a night. Don't over think it because Tony is a "5". He's a better offensive player, defensive player, and rebounder.

Tony's a better offensive and defensive player in the post --- however, neither is the case on the perimeter, which is where the 4-man is often called upon to play. In many situations and against many teams Luke's skill set works better.

It's simply a case of different players with different strengths.
Tony is a natural 5 or a Traditional-4.
Luke is a Hybrid-4, which means he has a face-up game that extends beyond the arc.

Against 4-out teams like Monmouth our 4-man has a very challenging task guarding some 6'5 guy who can hit 3s. That's not a good match-up for Traditional-4s. Even Brice (who's way quicker than Tony) struggled with that. Against teams with Traditional-4s Luke can also present a match-up issue for them.

 

[Butterbutt44]

This typically frustrates me too Butter, to the point that I had to figure out why this is the case so I've been keeping a close eye on rotation.

It's not foolproof but here's what I've gathered. For whatever reason, Roy does not play Tony and Kennedy in the game at the same time. I guess because if you do that- there's no one really to play the four. Since IH is usually first out, whether that be foul trouble or just Roy's comfortable with rotating in that order, that means that Luke comes in and plays the four with Kennedy. Then TB comes in, and when it's time for Kennedy to break, we see Isaiah come in again.

I don't love it, and I'm sure it will change. Irregardless of how good Kennedy can be- I think TB needs to be on the floor for 25 minutes in March for us to hang another banner. When playing at their very best, this team's best lineup will likely be JB, Theo, JJ, IH, and TB with Kenny and Kennedy off first. I like that seven a lot.

Agreed. If Luke is playing this amount in march something is wrong

 

[gauchoheel]

Tony's a better offensive and defensive player in the post --- however, neither is the case on the perimeter, which is where the 4-man is often called upon to play. In many situations and against many teams Luke's skill set works better.

It's simply a case of different players with different strengths.
Tony is a natural 5 or a Traditional-4.
Luke is a Hybrid-4, which means he has a face-up game that extends beyond the arc.

Against 4-out teams like Monmouth our 4-man has a very challenging task guarding some 6'5 guy who can hit 3s. That's not a good match-up for Traditional-4s. Even Brice (who's way quicker than Tony) struggled with that. Against teams with Traditional-4s Luke can also present a match-up issue for them.

Idk Gary, I certainly grant that Maye is a better perimeter defender than Tony. But does that make up for his weaker offense and rebounding? Not so sure about that.

 

[dadika13]

Idk Gary, I certainly grant that Maye is a better perimeter defender than Tony. But does that make up for his weaker offense and rebounding? Not so sure about that.

I grant that they are both lousy perimeter defenders. When did Luke Maye become Tony Allen?

 

[DSouthr]

Idk Gary, I certainly grant that Maye is a better perimeter defender than Tony. But does that make up for his weaker offense and rebounding? Not so sure about that.

Gaucho, I don't think anyone here would argue that Tony is not the more talented guy as compared to Luke. But there is a couple reasons why Luke is first off the bench at the power forward spot. First is that Tony is a natural center, he is not a guy you want switched off to a guard or wing out top of the key and while ideally neither is Luke at least Luke has a been feel for positioning right now.

Neither Tony or Meeks are great right now with moving their feet, recovering back, chasing a wing, going to get that rebound in space. Meeks is better in that aspect right now and the strong experience advantage tilts things to him getting his PT. The 2 in together tends to get things really clogged up in the middle and we tend to bog down on offense with to many defenders tagging 2 of our guys that feel more comfort inside the paint than outside of it. We can fuss about Hicks but notice when he is in there is less congestion because Hicks does pull his man outside a lot and because he is coming from the out side in he isn't getting as many rebounds with his angle to the rebound being limited. Hicks is much more able to tag with quicker wings and the occasional guard when switched on. That is where Luke and his understanding of positioning helps us more than is seen.

Plus add in the additional benefit that Luke is a guy that defenders can not leave alone for a wide open jumper even out to the trey, he can pull a big man outside just being a shooting threat. It is kinda like kenny at the 2, Kenny does not have to hit a ton of treys as much as he needs to be treated as a threat to hit them, so you can't leave him a open look and help on someone else.

Now having said that, I think Luke's PT will take a hit when Theo comes back, I would love to see Theo be first in at the 4 and the natural back up for Justin at the 3. I am not so sold on Theo at the 2, mainly because I really like what I see kenny doing at the 2. IU would shift BRob over to back Kenny up at the 2 or maybe 7th, move Britt to back up Joel, and I think by doing so it opens us up even more for our transition game and we do not lose anything on the defensive end.

 

[gauchoheel]

Those are good points Dave. Perhaps although Kennedy and Tony are both good offensive players in a vacuum, together they cause too much congestion. It would be great to see some numbers on that, but obviously that effect is hard to quantify. You've made me reconsider though.

 

[DSouthr]

Those are good points Dave. Perhaps although Kennedy and Tony are both good offensive players in a vacuum, together they cause too much congestion. It would be great to see some numbers on that, but obviously that effect is hard to quantify. You've made me reconsider though.

There were actually some numbers I saw on the pairings of all the different combinations of our big men playing together in a PPM look and actually Luke did really well no matter which of the other 3 he played in combination with, the Meeks/Tony was a really smaller sample size to be able to draw much conclusion from. Point I got from that is Luke seems to mesh in no matter what combination he played with a little better than he is perceived by many to. It really isn't so much about how many points player A scores as opposed to player B or even the boards, it is more about how the team over all plays and produces when certain combinations of players are on the court.