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Syria

Please stop engaging strum in any thread about war or world politics. He lives in a fantasy world where he thinks war can just be avoided by snapping your fingers. He loves saying "let's just not fight at all" which sounds lovely in the hypothetical but obviously isn't possible in the practical world we live in.

His answers will always be the same and you won't change his mind, so it's pointless to try.
 
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Please stop engaging strum in any thread about war or world politics. He lives in a fantasy world where he thinks war can just be avoided by snapping your fingers. He loves saying "let's just not fight at all" which sounds lovely in the hypothetical but obviously isn't possible in the practical world we live in.

His answers will always be the same and you won't change his mind, so it's pointless to try.
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I guess I am the ultra-optimist. I figured sooner or later he would actually answer a question.:oops:
 
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nctransplant said:
Would you just sit back and let Assad continue to bomb women and children with chemical weapons or at least try to slow him down? I am just curious as to what you believe should be done.
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Would I sit back and watch a man living next door to me torture people? No. Would I cure it by torturing him? No again.

I'm simply saying that it's not as simple as that, in this case.
 
Playing devils advocate here. Why not go ahead and bomb North Korea too? The way they treat their own people. I'm sure there's every bit of the horror going on there as well. I'm sure if we look hard enough we can find several other countries that are acting a fool just like Syria. Do we get involved w them too? Where do we draw the line w who we help and who we don't help ESP when it doesn't even involve us??
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
Please stop engaging strum in any thread about war or world politics. He lives in a fantasy world where he thinks war can just be avoided by snapping your fingers. He loves saying "let's just not fight at all" which sounds lovely in the hypothetical but obviously isn't possible in the practical world we live in.

His answers will always be the same and you won't change his mind, so it's pointless to try.
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It's no fantasy world at all. It's just as real as yours, to me.

People prefer to fight or they wouldn't be doing it so much.
 
toophly1124 said:
Playing devils advocate here. Why not go ahead and bomb North Korea too? The way they treat their own people. I'm sure there's every bit of the horror going on there as well. I'm sure if we look hard enough we can find several other countries that are acting a fool just like Syria. Do we get involved w them too? Where do we draw the line w who we help and who we don't help ESP when it doesn't even involve us??
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The reason we don't do it in NK is because no media outlet will ever be able to record what is going on in that hell hole.
 
nctransplant said:
I guess I am the ultra-optimist. I figured sooner or later he would actually answer a question.:oops:
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Nope. I mean, I admire his views that the world just shouldn't fight wars. Obviously, we all want that. But political dealings and wars have gone on since 2000 BC and all of them shape, distort, twist, and evolve the way the world works and the way nations interact with one another.

One of strum's tactics is he likes to speak in the hypothetical and never in the real world. Someone will make the point that the U.S. has to intervene or at least keep an eye on the Middle East because of all the things we (and Britain, and France, and the rest of the world from WWI up until now) have done with, and to, that area. And strum will just say "well, I would never have interfered at all. I'm comfortable just being me. I do not fear anything and would never interfere. We never should have in the first place." I mean.......okay, maybe. But we did, 70+ years ago. We can't just bury our head in the sand now.
 
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toophly1124 said:
Serious question. Are you all for having open boarders and allowing any and all refugees here? I'm torn on the issue. I think there's a very thin line from what we can do and what we should do.
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No, there are better ways to handle that type of situation in my opinion. Bringing unlimited amounts of people here doesn't help much and it makes life harder for our own citizens.

toophly1124 said:
But there's talks about plans being put in place to overthrow Assad and that's where my issues lay.
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I'm not a fan of trying to overthrow him in the traditional sense. If we could somehow get Russia to back off, then he wouldn't be able to survive and that would basically be like overthrowing him.

strummingram said:
From what we're told, it's always going to be what typically encourages our consent. I wouldn't believe them if they told me water was wet. I've reached that conclusion from an awareness of knowing that they will lie to me. But, I'm also aware how partisan politics is a popular pastime in our society. So, believe whatever you want.
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You have the right to believe what you want, but it's not just the government who is saying this happened. Until I have proof that there is a conspiracy between the US government, the WHO and the UN I'm going to believe that it actually happened.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
Plus, North Korea isn't sitting on a bunch of oil lol. That's always an underlying factor (no pun intended) when it comes to the Middle East.
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Exactly. This is more to do with some fat cat's bottom line, where the bombs will never fall, than with innocent poor people being bombed.
 
strummingram said:
Exactly. This is more to do with some fat cat's bottom line, where the bombs will never fall, than with innocent poor people being bombed.
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No, dude. No. The presence of oil is the only reason why the civilized world gave a shit about, and got involved in, the Middle East up until 9/11 when the world realized the backwards ass Middle East actually could formulate attacks on the modern world. From that point on, there was now two reasons... oil and national security.

Do you think Russia, the U.S., France, England, etc. have maintained a presence in the Middle East for 70+ years for its scenery?
 
toophly1124 said:
Playing devils advocate here. Why not go ahead and bomb North Korea too? The way they treat their own people. I'm sure there's every bit of the horror going on there as well. I'm sure if we look hard enough we can find several other countries that are acting a fool just like Syria. Do we get involved w them too? Where do we draw the line w who we help and who we don't help ESP when it doesn't even involve us??
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That's a good question and I honestly don't know what the answer would be. I guess you just have to look at it on a case by case scenario. China has a lot of ties with NK and I would think that probably plays a role. NK's military capabilities probably play a role as well. It would be easy for them to do a lot of damage to SK right now, so you have to ask yourself is it worth taking the chance of getting into a conflict with China and starting a war between NK and SK?
 
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TarHeelNation11 said:
No, dude. No. The presence of oil is the only reason why the civilized world gave a shit about, and got involved in, the Middle East up until 9/11 when the world realized the backwards ass Middle East actually could formulate attacks on the modern world. From that point on, there was now two reasons... oil and national security.

Do you think Russia, the U.S., France, England, etc. have maintained a presence in the Middle East for 70+ years for its scenery?
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I was agreeing with you. I tried.

The greed for the resource has created an unintended consequence- they'll TRY to put the fat cat in the line of fire. The greed is still there, as always.
 
strummingram said:
I was agreeing with you. I tried.

The greed for the resource has created an unintended consequence- they'll TRY to put the fat cat in the line of fire. The greed is still there, as always.
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Issues are way more interconnected and complicated than you try to make them sound. It's not just "greed." We need oil. And due to a myriad number of factors (such as environmentalists not wanting us to drill on U.S. soil for oil, OPEC, EPA, etc. etc. etc.), we have to rely on Middle Eastern oil.

You can't just label it "greed" because it's way more complex than that.
 
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nctransplant said:
Would you just sit back and let Assad continue to bomb women and children with chemical weapons or at least try to slow him down? I am just curious as to what you believe should be done.
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Syria has been killing Americans and it's allies since before we were born. Unfortunately, there has never been and never will be a war without collateral damage and loss of innocent lives. I have seen the ravages of conflict and I know firsthand the suffering that comes with it. It's the most horrible invention of man.

Having said that if I had my way Syria would have ceased operations in 1983. IMO, Reagan should have turned Israel loose on them and dared anyone else to interfere. I loathe the thought of getting involved in a civil war, but what Assad is doing is nothing short of genocide of his own people and he is being aided and abetted by Russia.
 
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Issues are way more interconnected and complicated than you try to make them sound. It's not just "greed." We need oil. And due to a myriad number of factors (such as environmentalists now wanting us to drill on U.S. soil for oil, OPEC, EPA, etc. etc. etc.), we have to rely on Middle Eastern oil.

You can't just label it "greed" because it's way more complex than that.
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But, but, but we can burn algae, ride on the wind and sun.......
 
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Issues are way more interconnected and complicated than you try to make them sound. It's not just "greed." We need oil. And due to a myriad number of factors (such as environmentalists now wanting us to drill on U.S. soil for oil, OPEC, EPA, etc. etc. etc.), we have to rely on Middle Eastern oil.

You can't just label it "greed" because it's way more complex than that.
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Well, it really is that simple.

But, I will concede that this conflagration has more to do with the US Dollar and it's status as the reserve currency. Also, how oil is traded in US dollars right out of the gate.
 
TarHeelNation11 said:
Let me just state again that bringing refugees to U.S. soil is NOT the answer. Our schools and infrastructure are strained enough as it is with all the immigrants (legal and illegal) streaming in daily. We do not need to take on more people. None, zero.
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Issues are way more interconnected and complicated than you try to make them sound.
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Yeah, exactly. More participants means larger tax base which means the infrastructure can take on more of a burden. This is no different than people who think that immigrants will steal their jobs because there will be more people but the same number of jobs. But that's wrong too. If you have more citizens, you will need more labor to produce the goods and services that they consume.

I'm not saying that bringing people to the us is the answer to this particular problem. But your premise was faulty. And you should stop buying into the narrative of immigrants "streaming in daily," it makes your tribalism wayyyyy too obvious.

nctransplant said:
But, but, but we can burn algae, ride on the wind and sun.......
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Are you trying to make fun of renewables? Because anyone who prefers burning oil over the utilization of renewable energy sources is an idiot. Maybe you're just ignorant of technology...
 
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uncboy10 said:
Yeah, exactly. More participants means larger tax base which means the infrastructure can take on more of a burden. This is no different than people who think that immigrants will steal their jobs because there will be more people but the same number of jobs. But that's wrong too. If you have more citizens, you will need more labor to produce the goods and services that they consume.

I'm not saying that bringing people to the us is the answer to this particular problem. But your premise was faulty. And you should stop buying into the narrative of immigrants "streaming in daily," it makes your tribalism wayyyyy too obvious.



Are you trying to make fun of renewables? Because anyone who prefers burning oil over the utilization of renewable energy sources is an idiot. Maybe you're just ignorant of technology...
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Here's some winners for you: Solyndra, Nevada Geothermal, Fisker Automotive
 
Okay this is PRECISELY why i was concerned about trump as president. He is reacting out of emotion. Its probably what i would do as well but i'm the first to admit i dont have the discernment to be a president. Theres just too much that doesnt make sense here to start bombing! Why are those survivors and bodies being handled by people who arent in hazmat suits or even masks??!! Where is all the vomit that happens when exposed to sarin? Why isnt the skin bleached if they were exposed to chlorine? Something stinks here and i think trump has been duped, probably by isis.
 
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heelmanwilm said:
Okay this is PRECISELY why i was concerned about trump as president. He is reacting out of emotion. Its probably what i would do as well but i'm the first to admit i dont have the discernment to be a president. Theres just too much that doesnt make sense here to start bombing! Why are those survivors and bodies being handled by people who arent in hazmat suits or even masks??!! Where is all the vomit that happens when exposed to sarin? Why isnt the skin bleached if they were exposed to chlorine? Something stinks here and i think trump has been duped, probably by isis.
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After all my lame poasts THIS is what I was trying to say. Next time I want to get a point across I'm gonna DM you for a draft.
 
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heelmanwilm said:
Okay this is PRECISELY why i was concerned about trump as president. He is reacting out of emotion. Its probably what i would do as well but i'm the first to admit i dont have the discernment to be a president. Theres just too much that doesnt make sense here to start bombing! Why are those survivors and bodies being handled by people who arent in hazmat suits or even masks??!! Where is all the vomit that happens when exposed to sarin? Why isnt the skin bleached if they were exposed to chlorine? Something stinks here and i think trump has been duped, probably by isis.
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Would it be any better if he just used "regular bombs" on women and children? Asking for a friend.
 
heelmanwilm said:
Okay this is PRECISELY why i was concerned about trump as president. He is reacting out of emotion.
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What makes you say that? From what I understand he met with his advisors and intelligence officials to discuss the best way to handle it. He also made sure that Russia was warned this was going to happen so they could move their people out. Obviously that meant that Syria knew to move their people out as well. That doesn't really seem like he reacted with emotion to me. I'm still not understanding the whole conspiracy thing. I can understand why some people would say that you shouldn't trust the US government, but the whole world is saying that this is true. I just have a hard time believing there is some kind of conspiracy between multiple governments and organizations like the WHO.
 
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tarheel0910 said:
What makes you say that? From what I understand he met with his advisors and intelligence officials to discuss the best way to handle it. He also made sure that Russia was warned this was going to happen so they could move their people out. Obviously that meant that Syria knew to move their people out as well. That doesn't really seem like he reacted with emotion to me. I'm still not understanding the whole conspiracy thing. I can understand why some people would say that you shouldn't trust the US government, but the whole world is saying that this is true. I just have a hard time believing there is some kind of conspiracy between multiple governments and organizations like the WHO.
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I guess its just my perception based on his words which were emotional (and once again i understand) and the fact he was dead set against involvement there just a year ago. I dont dispute the people died. But theres no evidence of chemicals in the pics and vids i've seen. But how do we know who killed them? There is absolutely no reason for syria to do this unless some "rogue" commander did it. They gain NOTHING from killing a few dozen civilians but instead get international outrage. Meanwhile isis profits hugely from syria getting bombed. I just woulda liked to have seen more evidence i guess is all.
 
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toophly1124 said:
Serious question. Are you all for having open boarders and allowing any and all refugees here?
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TarHeelNation11 said:
Any aid we give to foreign countries, be it military or economic, should be administered over there, not here on our own soil.
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I agree that we shouldn't just give carte blanche to anyone from Syria (refugee, or terrorist disguised as refugee) to completely assimilate into the US. Maybe this could be a good use of Guantanamo Bay. Send all the refugees there, not to torture them, but as a holding area until we can properly figure out who they are, or even better until the situation is resolved and they can go back home (where they probably want to be anyways). This way we get them out of the danger zone, without inviting them to make the US the new danger zone.
 
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Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
I agree that we shouldn't just give carte blanche to anyone from Syria (refugee, or terrorist disguised as refugee) to completely assimilate into the US. Maybe this could be a good use of Guantanamo Bay. Send all the refugees there, not to torture them, but as a holding area until we can properly figure out who they are, or even better until the situation is resolved and they can go back home (where they probably want to be anyways). This way we get them out of the danger zone, without inviting them to make the US the new danger zone.
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I actually think that's a brilliant idea. Gets them out of harms way and still insures that quality vetting is done thoroughly.
 
heelmanwilm said:
They gain NOTHING from killing a few dozen civilians but instead get international outrage.
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Well, he's killed more than a few dozen civilians. It's not the first time he's used chemical weapons and he has most recently been using fire bombs. Most people haven't paid attention to the fire bombs because it doesn't sound as bad as chemical weapons. As far as what they gain, they gain fear. The objective is to get the rebels or anyone that supports the rebels to think twice before going up against him. If you are some poor guy that has a family and nothing but a machine gun you are probably going to change your mind about fighting him. That's his mindset and pretty much every dictator's mindset. It's all about fear.
 
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Obama's LIED about enforcing the "Red Line" he claimed was in place in December 2013 with respect to Syrian movement or use of chemical weapons. Rice and John Kerry LIED that 100% of Syria's chemical weapons had been eliminated in their 2013 deal with Russia and Syria. Now, Trump has to clean up the mess. This is a good start.
 
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Nuk'EM Heels said:
Obama's LIED about enforcing the "Red Line" he claimed was in place in December 2013 with respect to Syrian movement or use of chemical weapons. Rice and John Kerry LIED that 100% of Syria's chemical weapons had been eliminated in their 2013 deal with Russia and Syria. Now, Trump has to clean up the mess. This is a good start.
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Obama lied, people died; Obama lied, people died; Obama lied, people died.......
 
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