Team Photo: aka how tall our guys are

[gauchoheel]

Check out the team photo from Roy's camp:

I might be the only weird one who cares, but I'm always interested in how tall players really are. Listed heights are so misleading, and it's further compounded by the with/without shoes distinction. I'm not sure any other context where someone is measured with shoes on, so I always prefer to go by the "without shoes" measured height. It's not the be all end all in terms of basketball, as wingspan varies a lot even amongst players with the same height, but it is still interesting.

I've got a couple of DX "without shoes" height measurements from pro players that we can use to roughly gauge heights in this picture:

Raymond Felton: 5'11.5" (source: http://bit.ly/2sULz4p)
Reggie Bullock: 6'5.75" (http://bit.ly/2tg2mls)
Isiah Hicks: 6'7.25" (http://bit.ly/2sfO5A4)
Tyler Hansbrough: 6'8.25" (http://bit.ly/2satSRr)

And now my guess as to our current player's true (shoeless!) heights based on the pic:

Berry: 5'11"
Woods: 6'0"
Kenny: 6'2"
Platek: 6'2.5"
Rush: 6'3"
Rohlman: 6'4.5"
B-Rob: 6'4.5"
Pinson: 6'4.75"
Maye: 6'6.5" (clearly on his tiptoes here!)
Brooks: 6'7.5"
Miller: 6'8"
Huffman: 6'8.25"
Manley: 6'10"

Theo, B-Rob, and Maye are the ones it's hardest to get comparables to. Everyone else I'd hope I'm very close to being correct.

 

[UNC-75]

Go to frame 330 of the Zapruder video of the Tar Heels recent alumni game and you will see that clearly our guys are 1 - 2 inches taller than recently reported by gauchoheel and speaks volumes to the success of the upcoming year. Thank God for 3-D video and Superfeet Gel Implants.

 

[gauchoheel]

Go to frame 330 of the Zapruder video of the Tar Heels recent alumni game and you will see that clearly our guys are 1 - 2 inches taller than recently reported by gauchoheel and speaks volumes to the success of the upcoming year. Thank God for 3-D video and Superfeet Gel Implants.

LOL

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Correcting for slouches and camera angle and row makes this hard.

It does look like Luke may be on his toes.

It does look like Brooks is the shortest of our new bigs, and Manley the tallest.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Check out the team photo from Roy's camp:

I might be the only weird one who cares, but I'm always interested in how tall players really are. Listed heights are so misleading, and it's further compounded by the with/without shoes distinction. I'm not sure any other context where someone is measured with shoes on, so I always prefer to go by the "without shoes" measured height. It's not the be all end all in terms of basketball, as wingspan varies a lot even amongst players with the same height, but it is still interesting.

I've got a couple of DX "without shoes" height measurements from pro players that we can use to roughly gauge heights in this picture:

Raymond Felton: 5'11.5" (source: http://bit.ly/2sULz4p)
Reggie Bullock: 6'5.75" (http://bit.ly/2tg2mls)
Isiah Hicks: 6'7.25" (http://bit.ly/2sfO5A4)
Tyler Hansbrough: 6'8.25" (http://bit.ly/2satSRr)

And now my guess as to our current player's true (shoeless!) heights based on the pic:

Berry: 5'11"
Woods: 6'0"
Kenny: 6'2"
Platek: 6'2.5"
Rush: 6'3"
Rohlman: 6'4.5"
B-Rob: 6'4.5"
Pinson: 6'4.75"
Maye: 6'6.5" (clearly on his tiptoes here!)
Brooks: 6'7.5"
Miller: 6'8"
Huffman: 6'8.25"
Manley: 6'10"

Theo, B-Rob, and Maye are the ones it's hardest to get comparables to. Everyone else I'd hope I'm very close to being correct.

Thanks for doing that work.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Makes sense since Brooks is listed as the shortest and Manley the tallest. Huff is listed as either 6'9" or 6'10" depending on which site you visit. I think the size of their will and hearts matter more though!

 

[gary-7]

Check out the team photo from Roy's camp:

I might be the only weird one who cares, but I'm always interested in how tall players really are. Listed heights are so misleading, and it's further compounded by the with/without shoes distinction. I'm not sure any other context where someone is measured with shoes on, so I always prefer to go by the "without shoes" measured height. It's not the be all end all in terms of basketball, as wingspan varies a lot even amongst players with the same height, but it is still interesting.

I've got a couple of DX "without shoes" height measurements from pro players that we can use to roughly gauge heights in this picture:

Raymond Felton: 5'11.5" (source: http://bit.ly/2sULz4p)
Reggie Bullock: 6'5.75" (http://bit.ly/2tg2mls)
Isiah Hicks: 6'7.25" (http://bit.ly/2sfO5A4)
Tyler Hansbrough: 6'8.25" (http://bit.ly/2satSRr)

And now my guess as to our current player's true (shoeless!) heights based on the pic:

Berry: 5'11"
Woods: 6'0"
Kenny: 6'2"
Platek: 6'2.5"
Rush: 6'3"
Rohlman: 6'4.5"
B-Rob: 6'4.5"
Pinson: 6'4.75"
Maye: 6'6.5" (clearly on his tiptoes here!)
Brooks: 6'7.5"
Miller: 6'8"
Huffman: 6'8.25"
Manley: 6'10"

Theo, B-Rob, and Maye are the ones it's hardest to get comparables to. Everyone else I'd hope I'm very close to being correct.

You might want to try another avocation. Impromptu photos where players are assuming varying postures tell you nothing. You are way off on almost all the current players

 

[gary-7]

Thanks for doing that work.

..except it is wrong.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I don't really get why you're so fixated on height without shoes. Everyone on the team plays with shoes on.

 

[Ozheelfan]

Why be obsessed with height regardless..... Psycho t measured something like 6-7 without shoes and he was pretty good in college...... Joel B is not that tall but will be a preseason candidate for tons of hardware.
Of course, if a player doesn't have the same abilities as those two guys a little height helps!

 

[gauchoheel]

You might want to try another avocation. Impromptu photos where players are assuming varying postures tell you nothing. You are way off on almost all the current players

I don't know, I think I have some potential to go pro...

Just something that interests me and I find it hard to believe I am "way off". It's really not that hard to tell relative height from a picture. Since we know the pro's exact heights, you can get pretty close.

Lest you think I'm trying to pick on UNC guys, everyone in basketball fibs on their height. Here's some Dookies from the Combine a couple weeks ago:

Kennard: 6'4.5" (listed on Dook roster at 6'6")
Giles: 6'9.25" (listed on Dook roster at 6'11")
Jackson: 6'2" (listed on Dook roster at 6'3")

General rule of thumb is you can take 1.5 inches off the listed height to get the true height.

 

[gauchoheel]

I don't really get why you're so fixated on height without shoes. Everyone on the team plays with shoes on.

Because that's what someone talking about "height" is generally referring to. You don't hear football players quoting "height with shoes", even though they play with them too (plus cleat spikes). You tell a girl on a date your "height with shoes" you'll probably get laughed out of the room. No one thinks of height in that way except basketball players, because there are large rewards for being taller. But as a fan basketball players are tall enough as it is, they don't need to exaggerate further.

I find it interesting to know how tall players really are. DraftExpress is awesome in that regard.

Why be obsessed with height regardless..... Psycho t measured something like 6-7 without shoes and he was pretty good in college...... Joel B is not that tall but will be a preseason candidate for tons of hardware.
Of course, if a player doesn't have the same abilities as those two guys a little height helps!

Oh, you can certainly overcome a lack of height. Just fascinating to me. I'm a sports nut and a numbers nerd. The combine is always one of the most revealing times in basketball and football for showing the true numbers with height/weight.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

I'm not really concerned with what ever true height even means. I'm concerned with our size relative to the opponent only! Since everyone increases heights they become irrelevant as long as we are comparable.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I don't really get why you're so fixated on height without shoes. Everyone on the team plays with shoes on.

I understand his point (I think) when I see some kids reported to be a couple of inches taller with shoes. Do they make sports shoes with elevator heels? I don't get how shoes add more than a half inch or so to height. An inch, tops, or it seems to me you are asking for ankle rolls or other problems.

From that perspective, height without shoes gives a better sense of true height.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

..except it is wrong.

I'm in no position to judge actual height. But I think he did a pretty good job with most of the relative heights.

At some point, you start with someone's height that you think is probably correct. Gaucho used a couple of pro listings. Seems reasonable.

Then it's a matter of guesstimating.

For some of the guys who are the same distance from the camera (in the same "row), you can gauge their relative heights against the seats or bars in the background. After you correct for slouching and hair, of course.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Just for fun I added heights from our roster listing for all the returning guys and from 247 for the new guys (except Miller, which is the height he gave for himself in an article).

6'0 Berry: 5'11"
6'2 Woods: 6'0"
6'4 Kenny: 6'2"
6'4 Platek: 6'2.5"
6'6 Rush: 6'3"
6'6 Rohlman: 6'4.5"
6'5 B-Rob: 6'4.5"
6'6 Pinson: 6'4.75"
6'8 Maye: 6'6.5"
6'9 Brooks: 6'7.5"
6'10 Miller: 6'8"
6'9 Huffman: 6'8.25"
6'10 Manley: 6'10"

Whether anyone wants to believe the Rivals or 247 or self-reported numbers is up to them but you will note that Gaucho has the relative heights in the same order except for BRob and Miller.

 

[gary-7]

I don't know, I think I have some potential to go pro...

Just something that interests me and I find it hard to believe I am "way off". It's really not that hard to tell relative height from a picture. Since we know the pro's exact heights, you can get pretty close.

Lest you think I'm trying to pick on UNC guys, everyone in basketball fibs on their height. Here's some Dookies from the Combine a couple weeks ago:

Kennard: 6'4.5" (listed on Dook roster at 6'6")
Giles: 6'9.25" (listed on Dook roster at 6'11")
Jackson: 6'2" (listed on Dook roster at 6'3")

General rule of thumb is you can take 1.5 inches off the listed height to get the true height.

It totally depends on the school.
Yes, dook inflates heights (big surprise, right?)

On the other hand Dean Smith, sand-bagger that he was, shrank players. First he measured in socks and then would often not adjust the roster when they grew --- with of course, the biggest case in point being Brad Daugherty, whom Dean insisted was 6'11-1/2 (which he came in as a 16 yr-old) even after he had clearly grown to 7'2. I believe it was Rollie Massamino who sarcastically said that when he played Carolina either his players shrunk or UNC's had a sudden growth-spurt.

Roy plays it pretty straight. We measure in shoes and round up a fraction over 1/2 for the roster sheet but that's about it. So yeah, calling JB 6'0 is a tad generous, but for a counter-example, Platek's number is right. I'm spot-on 6'3 in socks --- have been since I stopped growing at 16 (damn it) --- and I stood next to Andrew with us both wearing sneakers and he is around an inch taller than I am.

 

[gary-7]

Just for fun I added heights from our roster listing for all the returning guys and from 247 for the new guys (except Miller, which is the height he gave for himself in an article).

6'0 Berry: 5'11"
6'2 Woods: 6'0"
6'4 Kenny: 6'2"
6'4 Platek: 6'2.5"
6'6 Rush: 6'3"
6'6 Rohlman: 6'4.5"
6'5 B-Rob: 6'4.5"
6'6 Pinson: 6'4.75"
6'8 Maye: 6'6.5"
6'9 Brooks: 6'7.5"
6'10 Miller: 6'8"
6'9 Huffman: 6'8.25"
6'10 Manley: 6'10"

Whether anyone wants to believe the Rivals or 247 or self-reported numbers is up to them but you will note that Gaucho has the relative heights in the same order except for BRob and Miller.

Some of these are just off. Kids grow, lest you forget, and thus different recruiting services sometimes list different heights and weights. For example, see what I posted about Platek above. Also, Miller is clearly taller than 6'8, 7th is clearly taller than 6'0 and Rush 6'3? GMAB. I also don't buy the heights for KW, Luke or Brooks. Add an inch to each and you've probably got it.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

From that perspective, height without shoes gives a better sense of true height.

I agree with this, that "true height" is obviously what your height is barefoot. However, in terms of relevance, I think the height with shoes is more relevant, as that is how everyone plays. Obviously heights that are fudged upwards isn't helpful, but legit height in shoes is what should really matter.

Otherwise, if you have a kid that has a barefoot standing reach of 9'10.5" (obviously a little high, but work with me here) and you're wondering why he can touch the rim flatfooted, it'd be because when he's on the court, he's wearing shoes. Same as if a 6'3.5" guy wears shoes with a 0.5" sole, and a 6'3" guy wears shoes with a 1" sole, they're both gonna be the same height (6'4") when playing.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I agree with this, that "true height" is obviously what your height is barefoot. However, in terms of relevance, I think the height with shoes is more relevant, as that is how everyone plays.

I agree with that part. Plus, when we try to gauge the heights of our players from this picture, they are all wearing shoes. So if some are wearing elevator sneakers, we won't really be able to tell.

I think Gaucho's point is that he chose to start with baselines of 3 guys without shoes and then tied to judge relative sizes from that starting point based on what he could derive from the picture. So, if you say Felton is 5'11.5, you can then say Berry looks about that same height. Whereas Shea doesn't look as tall as Theo, even after you compensate for posture.

It's those other factors - hair, camera angle, distance from camera, slouching, leaning forward... - that make it tricky (and fun).

 

[gauchoheel]

I'm not really concerned with what ever true height even means. I'm concerned with our size relative to the opponent only! Since everyone increases heights they become irrelevant as long as we are comparable.

That's fair. I just think the "height without shoes" is more accurate, since it can't be fudged.

I understand his point (I think) when I see some kids reported to be a couple of inches taller with shoes. Do they make sports shoes with elevator heels? I don't get how shoes add more than a half inch or so to height. An inch, tops, or it seems to me you are asking for ankle rolls or other problems.

From that perspective, height without shoes gives a better sense of true height.

Exactly.

It totally depends on the school.
Yes, dook inflates heights (big surprise, right?)

On the other hand Dean Smith, sand-bagger that he was, shrank players. First he measured in socks and then would often not adjust the roster when they grew --- with of course, the biggest case in point being Brad Daugherty, whom Dean insisted was 6'11-1/2 (which he came in as a 16 yr-old) even after he had clearly grown to 7'2. I believe it was Rollie Massamino who sarcastically said that when he played Carolina either his players shrunk or UNC's had a sudden growth-spurt.

Roy plays it pretty straight. We measure in shoes and round up a fraction over 1/2 for the roster sheet but that's about it. So yeah, calling JB 6'0 is a tad generous, but for a counter-example, Platek's number is right. I'm spot-on 6'3 in socks --- have been since I stopped growing at 16 (damn it) --- and I stood next to Andrew with us both wearing sneakers and he is around an inch taller than I am.

Sure. I think most everyone inflates height though. And there's no problem with that, I'm just interested in what their actual height is. For instance, Brice Johnson was listed as 6'11" at UNC, but at the combine last year he only measured 6'9" flat. Obviously that takes nothing away from how great a player he is, but isn't it at least a little bit interesting to know how tall he really is? I think so.

You might disagree with some of my estimates, and maybe I went a bit too short with some of the guys. I was trying to judge based on the pros in the picture rather than anchoring against the roster listings. So Rush for example: it's hard to imagine he is 6'6", because Theo and B-Rob look taller than him and he looks MUCH shorter than the 6'8" Psycho T. But then again he is slouching slightly, and they are standing at different depths. It's all in good fun anyway, I have no real ability to discern these things.

I agree with this, that "true height" is obviously what your height is barefoot. However, in terms of relevance, I think the height with shoes is more relevant, as that is how everyone plays. Obviously heights that are fudged upwards isn't helpful, but legit height in shoes is what should really matter.

Otherwise, if you have a kid that has a barefoot standing reach of 9'10.5" (obviously a little high, but work with me here) and you're wondering why he can touch the rim flatfooted, it'd be because when he's on the court, he's wearing shoes. Same as if a 6'3.5" guy wears shoes with a 0.5" sole, and a 6'3" guy wears shoes with a 1" sole, they're both gonna be the same height (6'4") when playing.

The thing is most shoes can't be adding more than half an inch, but you get "height with shoes" that are 1.5 inches or even 2+ inches more than their actual height. Nobody plays with shoes like that. I prefer just to use their real height, and then know that they are slightly taller in an actual game (as everyone is with shoes).

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

As an amateur photographer, I notice some problems with using this photo.

The lens seems to be mildly wide-angle - meaning people who are closer are slightly bigger than they would seem with a normal or tele lens.

The photo is taken from left of center. So people on the left are a bit closer and therefore bigger.

The picture isn't level (look at the rows of seats compared with the top edge of the picture).

The height of the camera when the picture was taken seems to make people in back rows seem a bit shorter.

None of these are a big deal, but require some compensation.

 

[gauchoheel]

I agree with that part. Plus, when we try to gauge the heights of our players from this picture, they are all wearing shoes. So if some are wearing elevator sneakers, we won't really be able to tell.

I think Gaucho's point is that he chose to start with baselines of 3 guys without shoes and then tied to judge relative sizes from that starting point based on what he could derive from the picture. So, if you say Felton is 5'11.5, you can then say Berry looks about that same height. Whereas Shea doesn't look as tall as Theo, even after you compensate for posture.

It's those other factors - hair, camera angle, distance from camera, slouching, leaning forward... - that make it tricky (and fun).

Yes. So in the case of Felton and Berry, we're left with 2 options if you disagree with the Berry at 5'11" listing. Either:

Felton grew after college
OR
Berry is taller than Felton

Because we know Felton was measured by the NBA guys at 5'11.5" before he was drafted. So that was his height at 21 years old, when the vast majority of men are done growing. He's listed at 6'1" in the NBA, but this is because nearly all basketball players list an inflated "with shoes" height. So to me, looking at the picture, Berry looks slightly shorter than Ray. So I went with 5'11". Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my best guess with the data available.

 

[gary-7]

That's fair. I just think the "height without shoes" is more accurate, since it can't be fudged.



Exactly.



Sure. I think most everyone inflates height though. And there's no problem with that, I'm just interested in what their actual height is. For instance, Brice Johnson was listed as 6'11" at UNC, but at the combine last year he only measured 6'9" flat. Obviously that takes nothing away from how great a player he is, but isn't it at least a little bit interesting to know how tall he really is? I think so.

You might disagree with some of my estimates, and maybe I went a bit too short with some of the guys. I was trying to judge based on the pros in the picture rather than anchoring against the roster listings. So Rush for example: it's hard to imagine he is 6'6", because Theo and B-Rob look taller than him and he looks MUCH shorter than the 6'8" Psycho T. But then again he is slouching slightly, and they are standing at different depths. It's all in good fun anyway, I have no real ability to discern these things.



The thing is most shoes can't be adding more than half an inch, but you get "height with shoes" that are 1.5 inches or even 2+ inches more than their actual height. Nobody plays with shoes like that. I prefer just to use their real height, and then know that they are slightly taller in an actual game (as everyone is with shoes).

If Brice was ever listed at 6'11 that is a typo. Been 6'9 since he got here.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

While the speculation and discussion could be considered fun for some, I don't see why it matters exactly how tall our peeps are. Once you line them up against puke or Kentucky, I want to be comparable in size and then to beat that arse! As long as JB is the nastiest dog on the court I don't give a flip if he is 5'2" or 6'2"!

 

[gary-7]

While the speculation and discussion could be considered fun for some, I don't see why it matters exactly how tall our peeps are. Once you line them up against puke or Kentucky, I want to be comparable in size and then to beat that arse! As long as JB is the nastiest dog on the court I don't give a flip if he is 5'2" or 6'2"!

Joel Berry doesn't want to be 6 ft...
6 ft wants to be Joel Berry.

 

[Archer2]

The things we discuss in the offseason. I know one thing, we're plenty tall and plenty athletic. Our young bigs just require seasoning, which they will get right away by necessity.

Competition should be fierce which will push the learning curve for the younger guys. Playing with house money next year. Should be a ton of fun watching Roy develop this team.