the Beginning of the End for Dook basketball
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Are you now suggesting that Roy has changed his methods to mirror what what Ky now does Ken? Stevie Wonder can see K has now gone from "come to duke and graduate in 3yrs with a socialology degree" to what now, get that degree in 2 semesters, maybe 1? Considering the fact that Roy has had exactly 2 one & dones since he has been back at UNC I find it hard to understand how you can make the case that Roy is trying to do it the same way Kalipari established the one & done U deal and now K at duke has FOLLOWED.
Now of course Roy has recruited several kids that were one & dones but I don't recall Roy changing his system of play to cater to the incoming freshmen, matter of fact one of the hammers used on Roy in recruiting is that he does not cater to his freshmen, is that not true ken. You tell me I can't have it both ways, yet you want to suggest Roy wants to load up on one & dones in this comment while joining that dukie choir singing that UNC does not give freshmen the same chance to show their game as we do at duke?
And ken, you say Jones made the right call because his draft position could have never been better? Maybe but then maybe not, that sure is not fact is it? There is ONLY 1 freshman one & doner in that last draft who could not improve his draft position and that is Karl Townes, you can not improve over being the #1 selection in the draft. ANYONE else with remaining eligibility could play more college ball and have the chance to improve their draft position. Kid was a freshman, you saying he could not have gotten one bit better, could not have become any more developed or ready for the pro game by coming back to the college game for 1,2, or 3 more seasons and you know that for a fact?
Personally, I think he made a good decision ( GLAD he made that decision) as well but I would not say that his decision to not come back to the college game would not have better prepared him for the next level as a player. You seem to be slipping in to that Ky mindset, that winning on draft night is the most important thing. I personally believe that staying in the NBA is more important than getting in to the NBA is. Could you be suggesting that Ty Jones should not be seen as anything but lucky to get in to the NBA, that he really wasn't deserving of his high draft selection spot and will have a short run in the league? 3yrs of learning under Dean Smith sure didn't hurt that kid out of Laney High school that wore #23 for us did it boss?
just because you all took a hit after Dean, that doesn't mean that Duke will follow the same path as you all....Gut did fine, Doh had that one forgetable season, but recruited the group that got you all a title in 2005....Deans retirement was pretty sudden and unexpected iirc...Duke and K will bring in the right coach imo
Give us your best guess.
And by the way, Gut did fine but he was a horrible recruiter.
Gut had a tough row to hoe. Following up the Greatest Ever, and already old enough that opposing coaches began using the old "He won't be there when you get there" line immediately.
Inside I think Capel may have edge (K delegating a lot to him), or brad stevens......but 5-6 years from now (knock on wood), there could be a new upcoming coach....
K will turn 69 during this season. Not sure he will coach into his mid-70's. I don't know enough to have an educated guess. I don't know why more coaches don't try to use his age as a negative when recruiting. BTW, I do understand why Roy doesn't...1. he is that old too & 2. he doesn't do the negative recruiting. This last point is personal belief only; K IS willing to negative recruit and uses Capel to tell recruits that Roy will be gone before they can graduate.
Good lord "D", you're playing the Jordan card? LMMFAO
I love you brother. Always have and always will.
I just don't understand why you keep denying while Roy admits. Seriously?????
Roy can't give ample playing time to freshman OAD's if he's not landing them.
I can't wait until Roy starts getting OAD's and they're landing in the NBA year after year. Then you'll say Roy never thought they were OAD.
When this happens, are you going to hate the UNC OAD's and hate Roy for bringing them in?
Are you going to stop watching UNC basketball because UNC lowered themselves to selling out to OAD's?
LOL, Uh, quiz question for you JC, when was the last season Roy did not start a freshman for the whole season? Quizz question #2, when was the last season Roy did not have freshmen? Quiz question #3, in the years Kalipari has been at Ky, how many national championships have those mega talent one & doners brought to Lexington and in those same years how many has Roy brought to Chapel Hill?
Yep, we sufferring from our lack of one & doners for sure, I sure hope we can at least make the NCAAT this season, think maybe we will JC? You know, with all the whiffs in recruiting we have had & stuff?
JC, lets look at some facts, facts that you will not dispute, we have had what is it now 4 years of this NCAA cloud over us and yet for some reason, according to the experts, we are the team sitting pre-season #1 by most and at worst what, tied for #1? We had the PJ issues, we had the loss of both Dean and Gut, we had Bullock, McAdoo, and JP all shocking everyone leaving as early as they did all in addition to this NCAA cloud that has hung over us. As you point out, Roy has whiffed on mega talents he set as his #1 priority, some of whom ended up at either Ky, duke, or Kansas. And yet here we are, AGAIN, the team favored by all the experts to win it all...AGAIN?
That super team yall had last season, remind me again when you guys will be hanging that banner? You know, that team that was supposed to be able to beat half the NBA teams, surely they didn't lose to a college team, does that 40 & 0 shirt still fit ya? LOL
You know how I feel about the whole one & done nonsense, you know I do not like the proposed by some 2 & away or 3 & out deals either. NO, I did not always feel that way, I admit that but I dare you to find a college basketball fan of any program that was not happy the one & done deal was put in place. But then over time we see the effect it has had on the game itself and in truth even a large number of Ky fans, thou that program has benifitted from it more than any other program, but a large number of Ky fans don't like it either. NO, I do not want UNC to prostrate itself to the demands of some 18yr old kid, no I do not want UNC to play the back room deals that it takes to secure some of these mega talents.
Yeah, there are some UNC fans that don't care what it takes to win, win no matter what the cost, I am not nor have I ever been one of those guys. I promise ya, the greatest day in UNC sports will NEVER be draft day for me, if anything it is a downer because we lose our players at times sooner than expected. I did not celebrate draft night when Brandan Wright or Marvin Williams left UNC after their freshman seasons, you damed right I wanted both of them to come back, you telling me you would not have preferred to see Townes back playing for Ky this season? I STRONGLY feel those 2 fellas could have come back to UNC and worked on their game and been more ready to contribute at that level day 1. And you darn right, 3 yrs of playing for Dean Smith did not hurt #23 at all, his words boss man, not mine...
mid-70's hell he'll be coaching in his mid 90's (the Cornelius McGillicuddy of CBB) of course his mid 90's in people years will be about 875.
yes and no.
I think any person should be able to seek employment. So, I believe any kid should be able to go from HS straight to the pros. I also believe that a kid that goes to college should be able to go pro after his or her freshman, sophomore, junior or senior season.
The problem is scholarships. What should the student be obligated to by accepting a scholarship?
It's not my call Mike. I think either way someone gets screwed. Whether it be the kid, university, or pro team.
I don't know what is correct or not. All I know is the rules we have to go by.
What I am suggesting is that Roy has tried unsuccessfully to recruit every player that Ky and Duke had.You attribute our recent success recruiting success to K being the Olympics coach. For years UNC sold kids that going to Duke would ruin their chance to have a good NBA career. We now can point out that Duke players make forty percent more money than recent UNC players. I think that we agree that people go to college to make a better living.Maybe that fact has a lot to do with our recent success
There is no way that Duke players make 40% more than UNC players is true. I don't think your facts are updated after this off season. A few former Tar Heels got paid good (Green, Davis, Henson and soon to be Barnes)
Now ken, really, you skipping to yet another topic? OK, I'll play...
1) What I am suggesting is that Roy has tried unsuccessfully to recruit every player that Ky and Duke had. Yep, we have recruited many of the players duke got, UNC has ALWAYS RECRUITED THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE COUNTRY, I thought you knew that already? Yet now that recruiting one & done players is in vogue those coaches that are getting those one & doners have changed their systems to feature the one & done stars, at the expense of their experienced players. As you well know, the huge hammer used on Roy is that he does not change his system and he does not bench his experienced guys just so some freshman star and his freshmen buddies who all demanded that huge PT else they wouldn't come as that package deal can be featured in their one and only cameo as "college" players.
The question never has been does Roy recruit one & done players, of course he does, UNC always does recruit the best of the best talents, the question is is Roy willing to do those things other coaches are doing that allows them to get those one & done players and clearly the fact Roy has not been getting them proves he is not willing to make those back room deals or bench his experienced returning talents just so a freshman can look good in his cameo appearence. Glad I could clear that up for ya...
2) "For years UNC sold kids that going to Duke would ruin their chance to have a good NBA career." Well boo freakin Hoo, LOL, you mean UNC didn't suggest to recruits that they really should go to duke while we were recruiting them to UNC? Yeah, real sure K tells all his recruits UNC is a great school for them to play for? I have to believe you threw that line in there without thinking cause dang...LOL
Let me just remind you of the words from one of the (if not the) best NBA coaches of all time, Phil Jackson, "duke players are not well prepared to play at the NBA level", recall those words from earlier this year?
3) "We now can point out that Duke players make forty percent more money than recent UNC players." This point you have been fixated on and yet the mark mark of success is winning championships, your dukies reached that high water mark of success last season so I am surprised I have to remind you of this. In the NBA the highest mark of success is winning the title, you get a really cool ring and they pay you big money & stuff. remind me again how many former dukies have NBA championship rings and how many former UNC players have them?
You said it yourself, duke has been getting better talents than we have, been able to stuff them in the lotto & first round of NBA drafts so of course they are getting paid and paid well. Funny thou, when you think about it, dukies paid all that money with so few rings to show for it all. Really does bode the question of does duke really solidly prepare them for the next level or do they (duke) have to win by having the best talents? According to Phil Jackson they are not all that well prepared, do you know more than Phil Jackson? LOL
4) Yeah, most do go to college to make a better living, on that we do agree, I guess that duke sociology 3yr degree (that appears now days to be a 2 semester degree) really prepares YOUNG former dukies to get a gig with ESPN! Is that the next topic you want to bring up, duke's success with getting commentator jobs with sports networks? LOL
'The problem is scholarships. What should the student be obligated to by accepting a scholarship?"
JC, sholarships are given to player on a year to year basis, they are not given as 4yr package deals, kids comittment should not exceed that of the school.
I 100% totally agree with your first paragraph, kids should be allowed to enter the NBA after high school. It is actually amazing, a kid can enter the military and die for his country before his 19th birth day but he can not play in the NBA? As soon as a kid is of legal age to enter in to a contract he should be able to do so with an NBA contract if all parties are willing.
Yes, doubt it's still true b/c last year's Duke total salary number was boosted by Boozer's large legacy deal + Kyrie Irving's max deal + Luol / JJ carrying pretty big veteran deals + the volume of other guys (Duke had 19 at the end of the year I think). Boozer's off that deal and right now Duke has a lot of guys earning below market on rookie deals (though high rookie deals) -- Parker, Okafor, Winslow, Hood.
With that said, over the next 5+ years, I think that Duke salaries will clearly end up a lot higher when Parker, Okafor, & Winslow come off their rookie deals. With Kyrie, likely going to be looking at 3-4 max or near-max guys + a number of guys who should eventually get / continue to get pretty large veteran deals (Hood, Mason P) akin to Green / Henson . Davis's deal isn't horrible ($20 million), but it's not particularly good -- e.g., even Singler has a $25 million deal. The impact of UNC not recruiting as many elite guys as normal the past couple years really will be felt in NBA salaries a few years down the road. Right now UNC's getting the benefit of a lot of its stronger teams from 08-12 getting their 2nd & 3rd deals.
being an upperclassman shouldnt give one priority....if a freshman comes in and outplays and out hustles and brings more to the overall team dynamic, then that upperclassman needs to step his game up....period
Sometimes it's loyalty to players,remember it's a team sport not one and done NBA showcases.Roy has his system and K has his.
If the ability to produce is near equal then you darn well should reward your experienced players. Being a freshman should not give you a priority and it should NEVER enter in to the coaches decision that he feels forced to play or start freshmen just so he can show recruits that he plays them.
Agree, K is not going anywhere. He will stick around and trying to break Wooden record. Regretfully, he will not break Wooden's record and will retire a disgruntled man for not accomplishing it.
i agree w/ that dsouth (equal talent part), but if you are bringing in a projected OAD kid, then odds are he is way better than what is currently there....just using duke as an example...okafor was the only sure fire OAD and plum3 was not his equal.....parker was def OAD, which moved jefferson to C....yes loyalty is great, but the job is to win also, what are we teaching kids about life and hard work in regards to nothing being automatic....i just think the better talent should get the lion's share of minutes
for the most part, duke's OAD guys have been at positions of need for that season...which allowed them to be showcased at their position...
The one & done pool of players seems to grow every year, meaning the kids that consider themselves one & done now would not have been that only a handful of years ago. Example, JMM would be a one & doner in this climate, should not have been, wasn't close to being ready for the NBA before or after his frosh season and I doubt many would argue other wise. Yet they still clamored for him to be, it was in my view amazing, should not have been in the discussion for that draft after his frosh season but those experts all seemed shocked he came Back?
But boogie, who would you have sat so JMM could start as a frosh, Henson or Zeller? No one questions JMMs talent, his ability to produce...way different question and especially as a frosh. Do you give the lion share of the minutes to the frosh JMM and sit Henson or Zeller? I do what Roy did, I ride Henson & Zeller. I screamed all that next year, please start PJ at the 2 but rather than do that Roy started a freshman Paige. Roy started Britt the next season as a frosh, hand was forced by the PJ/Lmac situations but he still started him. Last season Jackson was the day 1 starter as a freshman and had injury & sickness not struck it is VERY likely Berry would have taken over as the starting PG mid way thru last season and Theo was getting more and more minutes, even at crunch time, until that foot stopped him. Roy has given not just starter minutes (thou not all began the games) to guys like Ed Davis, Marvin, and Brandan Wright.
The one guy so many point to when they try to suggest Roy holds his freshmen back is Kendal. But out of Kendal's own mouth, he was not ready day 1 to be a starter, he needed more time to ease in, his words not mine. Reggie was getting solid PT but injury ended his frosh season and of course Barnes started day 1 and would have been one & done had it not been for the on going NBA lockout at the time, he didn't want to risk an entire season on the shelf so he elected to play for us one more. This deal about Roy holding back his freshmen is nonsense.
Now what Roy does not do and I am glad he doesn't is dumb down his system, the way Roy wants his teams to play just so freshmen can catch on quicker. If you have no choice but to start multiple freshmen due to injury ect then you have no choice but to dumb things down but to do so just so you can CREATE THIS PERCEPTION OF BEING ONE & DONE FRESHMAN FRIENDLY, to me is not good for the sport, the players, or the fans of the college game.
Roy had 3 very talented freshmen last season, he started one of them but not all 3, same can not be said for the coach for duke. By starting 3 freshmen duke dumbed things down, successfully I agree but dumbed down none the less. If a coach is forced to do such a thing then he has no choice but to do so just to create a friendly atmosphere for freshmen, not just that current team but future recruits to me reflects weakness more than strength.
It is no real secret as to why Dean retired when he did, he didn't like having 18yr olds telling him how to run his team or the demands they place on you in order to get their commit. I have always respected him for taking that stance among so many other things that I respected coach Smith for. That lesson was not lost on Roy and it is exactly why IMO Roy is the guy I want coaching UNC until he decides to retire. IN a similar way, I hold much more respect for Bobby Knight than many others do. He may have throw chairs and stuggle to handle his own emotions but a 18yr old kid was not going to tell him how to do his job. Maybe that was part of the reason coach Smith and coach Knight were good freinds.
yep JMM could not supplant Henson and Zeller as their talent and team fit was better....i think PJ should have played over dex imo.....i disagree that duke "dumbed" things down for the freshman...they all three started because they were three of the best players period and had spots jones moved quinn to 2guard...no real sf comp for winslow and oak is starting day 1...K plays the best talent.....also K adjusts to the team that he has, not making them play like teams from the past....the biggest adjustment this past season was going to zone and it worked....i dont think Roy holds kids back per say, even though that may be the perception, but just me, I think he subs a bit too much, I have seen plenty times a kid make 2 or 3shots and couple of good plays and he is subbed out by someone inferior (for chunks of time)????, but that's his system, so that's how it is.......hypothetical....if unc lands oak, does meeks still start over him??...also you could make the case for hicks over johnson, but if hicks hasnt taken the spot away from johnson then hicks deserves to be the 3rd big
Had we got Ochafor would he have started over Meeks, hard to say, personally I would suggest no, that he would have come off our bench but he would have got solid minutes IMO. Meeks kind of went into so mystery funk in Jan, Ochafor would likely have taken over as the starter then. Hicks over Johnson, IMO no way at all, fist I think Brice is and has been more ready to produce now than Hicks. I could make a better case for Brice and Hicks to start than Brice or Hicks, and frankly I think we are better with Meeks and Brice as the starters. I do think Hicks may have more upside than either Brice or Meeks but based on LAST SEASON, I start Meeks & Brice and I would have to see a heck of a lot more from Hicks to change my mind on that.
i agree w/ the hicks/meeks/johnson scenario....wasnt hicks the most highly regarded?..if so, that prob were the perception comes in...3 years in and still not starting and less minutes/production....but like i said earlier whether freshman or upperclassman, the better talent should prevail, not just because you have been around longer...imo
Wait, did someone suggest that Kennedy Meeks would have started over Okafor??
Either someone is joking or I didn't read the All ACC/ All America list very well last year.
Either someone is joking or I didn't read the All ACC/ All America list very well last year.
This is not a serious statement, is it? I get loyalty to veterans, but I cannot believe for a second that Roy would have benched one of the top 3 players in the country simply because there was a sophomore already in that position. If this was a serious statement then you are fishing like no one ever has.
Also, it would create an inherent issue with Roy's recruiting. How do you say to a top 25 prospect "you're good enough to start anywhere, but there will be a less talented upperclassmen in your position when you get here, so you'll be coming off the bench". I can't imagine that pitch would be successful in just about any situation. It also won't win you many games or championships.
I am well aware of the AA lists from last season, I am as well aware that Meeks was playing really well up and thru dec last season. Now I have a very experienced soph, who stepped up big time in big games up til jan when he contracted some sickness that stunted the ending to his soph season. As I said, Ochafor would no doubt have started then but up to then it was a close call and in a close call you always go with your experience.
I did not say Ochafor would not play nor did I say he would not get starter level minutes, I said likely Meeks would start, FYI Marvin Williams did not start for us and that didn't hurt his draftability.
dsouth....Marvin Williams was so long ago that it's kinda hard to equate him and his situation with today's kids...top5 kids don't expect to sit, nor will choose a situation where sitting behind someone inferior is an option....just the sign of the times....also back to if, if oak was there, the meeks that you saw prob wouldnt have happened how it did as oak would have been in the game instead of meeks which nullifies some of the good moments of meeks that you saw that is helping your decision...right?????
That's the sort of decision that would just justifiably get a coach fired. Okafor scored more points in a NBA debut than any rookie center in his debut this side of named Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and is averaging 20 ppg in his first 3 NBA games. Meeks is a fine college player -- but common. The notion that any rationale coach would start Meeks over Okafor is pretty indefensible. If you go back through Duke's roster over the years, I don't think you're going to find a single instance where a veteran player was sent to the bench in favor of a freshman of comparable quality. If anything, at times, it's been just the opposite. K has definitely had recent cases of lower-talent guys starting over more naturally talented kids sitting on the bench -- whether that be Tyler Thornton getting minutes over Quinn Cook / Sulaimon / Matt Jones, Lance Thomas / Zoubek starting over the Plumlees, etc., or even Matt Jones starting over Grayson at the end of last season. I really can't think of a single instance where Duke regularly started a freshman who was even close to the alternatives on the bench -- whether it be Luol, Kyrie, Austin Rivers, Sulaimon, Jabari Parker, Okafor, Winslow, or Tyus Jones. Aside from Sulaimon who had his issues and came into a roster that didn't have any real wings, every one of the freshman who started here were top 10 type recruits who were drafted in the first round -- all but Tyus Jones being a lottery pick.
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Dude come, I CLEARLY said that half way thru it would have been clear cut. But you are trying to take a kid and consider him not only after he finished his frosh season but now his play in the NBA and say he is the same as he was before playing a single college game? You telling me he has not improved a single bit since prior to college? Did your beloved coach not improve his skills one single bit?
To suggest that it is a 100% certain that Ochafor would have started day 1 over Meeks the soph, who by the way also played in a Micky D game but had dramatically improved his body since coming to UNC? Not nearly as far fetched as you would like to portray it. I VERY clearly stated that IMO Ochafor would have taken over the starting role by about mid season but day 1 it is a much closer call.
I respectfully just disagree. Okafor improved under Coach K when it came to understanding how to play out of doubles, defensive footwork, conditioning, focus, etc. However, in reality, the offense game that made him a first time AA type player is the stuff he came to college with. Okafor's the only post player I've seen in the last 10-15 years in the ACC who really was virtually unguardable if you didn't send a double team / constantly have help digging down on his dribble. Just an amazingly skilled kid for a player his age. I'd love to say K taught him that. But reality is that's stuff he came to Duke with. On the offensive end, Okafor was the most college-ready big I've seen in a generation. I just don't think a kid like Okafor is on the same plane with even most good college players. I'd love to have someone with Meeks' low-post ability on this year's Duke squad (or on most Duke squads). But he, like most college bigs, can't consistently dominate virtually every college big he faces in one-on-one situations. With the possible exception of the Gonazaga game (where Okafor just played poorly), I never really saw any team last season have any type of consistent success defending him one-on-one. Teams always were forced to double or send some type of help -- which, in turn, made everyone around him better.
K will be coaching Duke for a least another 10 years. He appears to be in good health and likes what he is doing. Now that he has embraced OAD he has replaced Calipari has the guy who gets the best recruiting class year after year. Ironically, he may run into the same problem that Calipari did, too much talent. The consequent unhappiness with guys trying to get to the NBA sitting on the bench is Kentucky's undoing. On the other hand if K keeps having years like this past year, this train could keep running for a long time.
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