Bump it up at least one more star, pretty please!
They keep warning us...
- Thread starter heelmanwilm
- Start date
This reminds me of when flat earthers tell people they cant make water stick to a spinning ball therefore the earth is not a globe
It seems like you're implying that couldn't be the case. Is it not possible for God to have created all of the horrible/bad things, or be indifferent to eliminating them if they evolved/occurred on their own out of the original "creation" set forth? Or even be unable to correct for them after creating the big bang (thus not omnipotent).
It seems weird to think that a God would have created a universe that is all-good. What would be the fun in that?
I genuinely want to know, though. This "empirical evidence" gimmick he's peddling is... bullshit.
To me, the more frustrating aspect of this whole argument is the potential for innovation that gets ignored in favor of these archaic, dangerous energy sources. We've obviously come too far to go back to pre-electricity. And, we wouldn't survive even if we did. I think we've become too dependent on it. But, I digress. There is so much more potential for innovation, efficiency, COST, even profit and employment in these other energy sources that aren't anywhere near as harmful to our environment. But, of course, there's that greed factor, and the stubbornness that people are already invested in.
In a way, it's slightly similar to the hemp industry. Hemp is like... the most abundant resource EVER! But, because of other archaic attitudes toward the plant, it's taking forever to get people on-board and learn to use it to its fullest extent.
I’m not eliminating the possibility of a god who’s an asshole. Just eliminating the possibility of a benevolent god. Can’t be benevolent while creating child luekemia. Of course it’s possible that there’s an asshole god who created the universe, just like its possible that there’s a magic teaport orbiting Jupiter.
If this god can’t error correct then it’s not omnipotent. Which Christians believe. So we’re delving into a completely different belief system there, which I’m still happy to do.
It seems weird to think the universe was created by a god at all. But only an asshole would create a world with suffering just to make it more fun.
Well, that's 95% of my point in entering the conversation out of the way in the first sentence, so off to a good start.
You're of the belief that having the ability to stop disasters and "bad" stuff but not doing so makes for an asshole god - I don't necessarily believe that. Of course that could be the case, which wouldn't be that surprising. It could also be that this universe is some sort of model/experiment where "bad" things are allowed to run their course.
Agreed. If we're assigning probabilities to each, I think a god who created the universe would be a higher probability than a magic teapot. My thinking on that is that there would be no reason to think there may be a magic teapot around jupiter, any more than a spoon around Saturn, or a fork around Neptune, or a knife around Mars or any other random object around any other random location. Whereas the universe is a tangible thing that came into being at some point, so to assume there was a creator to create it doesn't seem like as much of a stretch. Even if this creator simply created the speck that was later exploded into the universe in the big bang.
I'm not discounting that there could be a non-omnipotent god either.
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Seems like basic ethics to me. If you can easily prevent suffering, but instead choose to allow it and even create more suffering, then that seems pretty screwed up to me. Why do people hold gods to lower standards than people? We don't allow scientists to conduct experiments that cause undue suffering. So why would be okay for god to run such an experiment?
Just because the universe exists doesn't mean there is any reason to assume it was created by a god. By that logic, if your god exists then it too would have needed to be created. And the god that created that god would have needed to be created. Ad infinitum. What you're doing is arguing that things that exist must have been created, then inventing an exception to your own rule.
@Hark_The_Sound_2010 , @uncboy10 , @Grayhead
Since we're doing most of the God-talk...
You ever notice when people get to a dead-end and then say "It's in God's hands now." I love that. In just about any situation, whenever I see, read, or hear that sort of "Well, we did all WE can, now it's up to God", I always kinda laugh a little to myself. Like, God- in whatever parallel existence- handed over the reins and was seeing how far the creation (us) could take it and then... "Here. God. You go from here!" And, of course, there's a preferred outcome which is based on a clear bias. When you've reached the end of your logical tether, God makes a cameo!
My favorite version of this is when it's a military endeavor. Civil War biographies are loaded with them. That was a very religious time. Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg: "It is all in God's hands now." Wars are the best because BOTH armies are convinced that God was on their side, and inevitably, if there were such a God in that form, there's no way that they could both be right.
My modern-day prophet, George Carlin, can always be relied-on for wisdom!
Since we're doing most of the God-talk...
You ever notice when people get to a dead-end and then say "It's in God's hands now." I love that. In just about any situation, whenever I see, read, or hear that sort of "Well, we did all WE can, now it's up to God", I always kinda laugh a little to myself. Like, God- in whatever parallel existence- handed over the reins and was seeing how far the creation (us) could take it and then... "Here. God. You go from here!" And, of course, there's a preferred outcome which is based on a clear bias. When you've reached the end of your logical tether, God makes a cameo!
My favorite version of this is when it's a military endeavor. Civil War biographies are loaded with them. That was a very religious time. Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg: "It is all in God's hands now." Wars are the best because BOTH armies are convinced that God was on their side, and inevitably, if there were such a God in that form, there's no way that they could both be right.
My modern-day prophet, George Carlin, can always be relied-on for wisdom!
You can't really blame them. If you really believe theres an all powerful god pulling the strings, then you might as well just leave it in god's hands. I mean what the hell are you going to do against god?
I always find it strange that people are surprised radical fundamentalist religious types. I mean if you really believe you're in the business of saving people's eternal souls why wouldn't you go to any length to convert people? If you fail they're going to suffer in hell forever. That's a serious business. It's a big part of why so many people are afraid to come out as atheists. They have family members who will go into hysterics if they find out their precious baby is going to be spending eternity hanging out with satan.
I'm loathe to jump into the religious debate, but I always find this point interesting and it's a question that both sides can never answer. How did the universe just come into existence and why. At one point nothing existed, but then something came into existence. Where did that something from nothing come from and why did it change from nothing to something? It's something religion and science doesn't really have an answer for. It reminds me of the scene in The Matrix where Neo ask the guy why is he there and he says something like, I exist because I must. It's the ultimate philosophical question.
I’m going to need some time to dig through the analytics on this before agreeing or disagreeing.
Well there are theories in physics. The idea that there was nothing doesn't really jive. There was a singularity where all the matter in the universe was condensed to a single tiny point. If you follow the law of relativity, the flow of time would be infinitely slow at the singularity. So you could make the case that time actually didn't begin to flow until quantum fluctuations caused a breakdown of the singularity, resulting in the big bang. Then as matter began to spread out, time began to flow faster and faster.
If you really want to make things confusing, this is the point I often get stuck on. If the universe is expanding at the speed of light, what is it expanding into?
And, to me, I think "Well, what ISN'T in God's hands???" We are the creation of God, so, indirectly this is all God's work.
Now, that also brings up an aspect that goes into the generalized "why is there suffering?" I think, perhaps, that is part of the polarity of experience... at least a little bit. You cannot know hot without cold. You cannot know pain without pleasure. And, the degree in which any of those things manifest themselves is practically endless. People all have the Good and the Evil inside them. There's Jesus and Satan in all of us- to use Biblical characters to characterize it. I am not sure that God has a preference for any outcome. People humanize their version of God so much. And, it's almost impossible not to do that.
But, you also hit a bullseye with how people who have a strong conviction to one religion will belittle and even harm people with different beliefs. When I learned about what Catholics and Protestants did to each other, it floored me. You have the SAME SAVIOR- Jesus of Nazareth- and you are so infuriated by a different interpretation that you torture each other over it! Same with Sunni and Shia Muslims. And, I know plenty of Southern Baptists who call Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses "a damning belief system." Like it's harmful to them and the rest of society.
Just enough religion in the world to make men hate each other.
To the suffering point, why create humans to have that nature? Why not just make the understanding innate, without the need to experience suffering to understand happiness. I would think an omnipotent god would have no problem with that.
Religion is also an expression of deeply ingrained tribalism. People are drawn to church because of the mythology that tells them they can have eternal life. But also because of the communal ritualistic aspect which makes them feel part of a group. And you can't have a group without a border. There has to be some out-group that you distinguish yourself from.
Sure, that can seem screwed up to you. There's a lot that seems screwed up to you. You think pretty highly of yourself if you think that an omnipotent god should hold the same ethics system as you, an infinitesimally small piece of the universe, have.
Well that one's pretty easy. We can easily control scientists and prevent them from doing things...they're human. How the hell are you going to stop god from running an experiment?
It certainly could be the case that the god that created this universe was created by yet another god. But that's not necessarily true either. Things in this universe aren't able to create themselves, but an all-powerful god would seemingly be able to create itself, by definition of being all-powerful. So the logic does make sense. Maybe it would require a break in the typical direction of time to get that to happen, I'm not sure.
Yeah, I've read about those theories, but that still doesn't answer everything. That matter had to come from somewhere right? Why do those fluctuations exist? It's just an interesting question that can never be truly answered definitively. It's always going to be in existence because it has to be in existence or God is always going to be in existence because he has to be in existence. I've always thought being a philosopher was one of the best jobs, because it's the one job where you don't have to answer questions.
I consider ethics to be more of an exercise of logic. My personal beliefs would be my morality. Ethics, if well reasoned, should be universally applicable.
My point was that there shouldn’t be a lower standard for a god. Not that you could do anything about it. Saying that all of the suffering in the universe is justified because it’s one big experiment seems a little callous to me.
There’s nothing logical about that. And you just demonstrated my point. You’re saying the universe needed to be created because it exists, but then inventing an exception to your own rule. How convenient that god didn’t need to be created, unlike the universe. If god can exist without being created by a god, then why can’t the universe exist without having been created by a god?
Tough questions. I think part of the problem is our understanding of time as linear. If time didn’t begin to flow then there was no point in time before the singularity. The matter didn’t come from somewhere, it just always was. But then what does always even mean? And was there a prior cause of quantum fluctuations? Our brains are just not very well equipped to answer these questions.
I did my minor in philosophy. It’s fun. But there’s also a lot of bullshitting. You can answer any question with another question if you’re good at it.
Another civilization on another planet could view things we see as "bad" to be desirable outcomes, and wonder why a god would allow anything we view as "good" to occur.
Is there anything in the universe that can create itself from nothing? I'm not aware of anything, which is why I think it's not impossible that something could have created the things that make up the universe. A god wouldn't have to be a thing from this universe. It's not an exception to the rule if the subject isn't encapsulated by said rule.
But if you answer a question with a question, does that mean that the question is the answer and if the question is the answer, was there ever really a question to begin with?
So many "Why's" out there.
A buddy of mine and I were talking about how contrasts were necessary to understand the differences. I guess you do need them. But, when you mention "innate", that's what always seems to be a stronger basis for understanding for me. I feel like once we experience something we like, or enjoy, or draw comfort/pleasure from... do we need the antithesis to appreciate it? Maybe so.
They absolutely could. But if a different civilization views 'suffering' as good, are they really suffering? What kind of civilization would be fond of innocent children dying for no real reason? That just wouldn't ever really make sense. Unless of course you're religious and think that they're just cutting to the front of the line to get to heaven. I can see how civilizations would obviously have different morals. But unless you believe in moral relativism, then there has to be some objective truths to ground your ethics in. If those truths are truly objective, then they would apply universally. Even if an alien civilization disagrees, they would be wrong.
The universe was not created from nothing. Physicists are so confident in the big bang because of the observation of the moment of matter through space. If you were to reverse the expansion of the universe, then all of the predictions point towards everything emanating from a single point. There's no reason to assume that there was every a point in time where nothing suddenly became something. The something was simply condensed at a single point in space, with virtually infinite time dilation. Time didn't flow at that point. It only began to move once the singularity broke down. So you have to make an unfounded assumption to assume that there was a time before the singularity when the matter in the singularity didn't actually exist. Maybe time is cyclical, and the universe will eventually collapse down onto itself, and this process will just repeat infinitely.
You're really going out of your way to come up with reasons why there might be a god, despite the fact that there is zero evidence that one exists. Now there might be another universe where god comes from? Okay, who created that universe? You aren't escaping the rabbit hole here. If something cannot come from nothing, and god is something, then it too must have been created. If you're going to argue that god magically appeared, but it's impossible that the universe came into existence on its own, then you're just not maintaining any kind of logical consistency. If god doesn't need to be created, then why does the universe need to have been created?
I don't think we do. Nobody thinks about being tortured when they're having an orgasm. It's just good because of the way that our brains perceive the sensory inputs that are at play in that moment. It's easy to appreciate it, even in a vacuum because it triggers the reward system in our brain.
I'm not really going out of my way at all, and I'm just showing you why you're definitive claim that a god doesn't exist isn't anymore believable or plausible than there being a god. Although you said in your initial response to be that you're not eliminating the possibility of a god which is really what I was driving at anyways.
If there's a god in another universe that creates ours, it doesn't really matter where that one came from, we're just discussing how our universe came to be.
You can’t prove a negative. I can’t prove there aren’t unicorns in Africa but that doesn’t mean there’s any good reason to believe they’re there.
Yes, yes. Now we're going in circles. I covered this in the Russell's teapot discussion.
I guess what I'm confused about is why you privilege the idea of creationism when there is no objective evidence to support it. We agree that it can't be DISproven. But what evidence is there that the universe was designed? Simple cause and effect seems to be a much better explanation for natural phenomena
I'm not sure how much of it was designed. I think the cause and effect for how things have evolved and played out since the big bang could just as easily, if not more easily, be the explanation.
I think that the original speck, or singularity or whatever having been created is just as plausible if not more plausible than the alternatives you've presented in that it was always there, and that there was no movement of time before the big bang. I could see the time part being true relative to everything in that singularity, but not for anything outside of it.
Let me throw this out. What if there is in fact a god but we are so far down the list that It is not even aware of us? Suppose we are like ants living beside a superhighway. We have no idea what’s going on around us, we don’t have the ability to see cars flying by us and the “gods” in the cars pay us no mind at all. We just don’t matter, they could kill us all without a thought about it but us ants think that all this was created just for us
"You either got faith or you got unbelief and they're ain't no neutral ground."
"Surrender your crown, on this bloodstained ground, take off your mask
He sees your deeds, He knows your needs even before you ask
How long can you falsify and deny what is real?
How long can you hate yourself for the weakness you conceal?
Of every earthly plan that be known to man, He is unconcerned
He’s got plans of His own to set up His throne
When He returns"
