Who starts at the 2 guard position with Marcus gone?
- Thread starter DSouthr
- Start date
My thoughts .......................... to START the season
#1 Nate-think the young man has earned that chance.
#2 Williams-IF he shoots 500 shots a day in the off season and gets comfortable taking that 3. He has the rest.
#3 Seventh because we know he is sold out to playing some mean D and can slash and FINISH.
#4 Robinson because I think he needs more strength to handle ACC guard play.
#1 Nate-think the young man has earned that chance.
#2 Williams-IF he shoots 500 shots a day in the off season and gets comfortable taking that 3. He has the rest.
#3 Seventh because we know he is sold out to playing some mean D and can slash and FINISH.
#4 Robinson because I think he needs more strength to handle ACC guard play.
If JJ comes back, it'll be None of who you listed imo. Theo starts at the SG spot if JJ is back.
Pg: Berry
SG: pinson
Sf: Jackson
Pf: hicks
C: Meeks
That's assuming everyone is back.
Pg: Berry
SG: pinson
Sf: Jackson
Pf: hicks
C: Meeks
That's assuming everyone is back.
Several options.
If Justin returns . . .
Theo will get more than half his minutes at SG IF he finishes turning the corner. If he doesn't finish turning the corner, he'll see someone else take those minutes at SG, leaving him with reduced minutes as Justin's backup. He has all the tools, but he needs to improve his shot, his focus and his bball IQ. It's baffling to me that someone with that much athleticism isn't further along. But I expect he'll get there as a junior.
Nate could well start at SG because of experience. But we have so much experience, Roy won't feel the need to start him. So while it's a good bet that Nate will start some early in the season, I expect SG to be the position Roy experiments with the most.
Who will be the most ready among Kenny, 7th and Brandon? I expect Roy to give them all a shot. Competition could be fierce and fun to watch as they push each other to get better. From the little I've seen, 7th has the edge on athleticism. Kenny has a year in the program and carried himself well in the light minutes we saw him play. Brandon has the extra height and seems to have become a fine shooter. At this point, though, we don't know which if any of them will be ready to be a starter next season.
Assuming the hoped for improvement by Theo, our best lineup has Justin and Theo in together and at least one of them on the court at all times. But if they both play 30 minutes, the most they can play together is 20 minutes.
If Justin returns . . .
Theo will get more than half his minutes at SG IF he finishes turning the corner. If he doesn't finish turning the corner, he'll see someone else take those minutes at SG, leaving him with reduced minutes as Justin's backup. He has all the tools, but he needs to improve his shot, his focus and his bball IQ. It's baffling to me that someone with that much athleticism isn't further along. But I expect he'll get there as a junior.
Nate could well start at SG because of experience. But we have so much experience, Roy won't feel the need to start him. So while it's a good bet that Nate will start some early in the season, I expect SG to be the position Roy experiments with the most.
Who will be the most ready among Kenny, 7th and Brandon? I expect Roy to give them all a shot. Competition could be fierce and fun to watch as they push each other to get better. From the little I've seen, 7th has the edge on athleticism. Kenny has a year in the program and carried himself well in the light minutes we saw him play. Brandon has the extra height and seems to have become a fine shooter. At this point, though, we don't know which if any of them will be ready to be a starter next season.
Assuming the hoped for improvement by Theo, our best lineup has Justin and Theo in together and at least one of them on the court at all times. But if they both play 30 minutes, the most they can play together is 20 minutes.
I didn't include Theo in the choices at the 2, feel free to add him if you want. I didn't add him because I don't see him as a 2, I see him as a 3/4, mostly wing, starting wing if Justin does leave but I loved his work at the 4 in the later part of the season and in the post season. When Theo and Justin were in together, most often Theo was the 4 and Justin was the 3 but they switched a lot.
Theo IMO can become a much better shooter and will be glad to discuss why I think that but I do not see him really ever being a 2 guard type of shooter and unless you have dominating scoring from your front court you absolutely have to have a solid jump shooter at the 2. You can not have a Jackie Manual at the 2 with out a Sean May inside and a Rashad McCants on the wing.
And by the way, I don't think you can have a Theo at he 2 when you have guys like Nate, kenny, 7th, and BRob available.
If Justin goes pro . . .
Then Theo is our SF and the logjam frees up.
Presumably Brandon backs up Theo - just based on height.
Which leaves Nate, Kenny and 7th to handle SG and backup at point.
7th looks like the best athlete of the trio, Nate has the most experience, and Kenny is coming along and might be the best outside shooter.
With Justin gone, Roy may be more inclined to lean on Nate's experience - at least early on. But he will still need to give Kenny and 7th as much burn as possible to see who has the best chance of moving into the starting lineup. And Brandon could get some minutes at SG, too.
The main question at SG could be who plays in the backcourt when Berry is out. I expect Roy to try all combos, but the main one probably has Nate and 7th in there together. That presumably gives us our best ball handling combo with Berry out.
The picture is much less clear with Justin gone. Not only does Theo have to finally click on all cylinders but probably at least 2 of the freshmen and soph guards/wings have to be ready to play. But what if they aren't?
One option is to play Luke some at SF. He has shown some outside shooting chops. But is he quick enough? Another is that we have a pretty short team with a 3-guard lineup a lot of the time.
Then Theo is our SF and the logjam frees up.
Presumably Brandon backs up Theo - just based on height.
Which leaves Nate, Kenny and 7th to handle SG and backup at point.
7th looks like the best athlete of the trio, Nate has the most experience, and Kenny is coming along and might be the best outside shooter.
With Justin gone, Roy may be more inclined to lean on Nate's experience - at least early on. But he will still need to give Kenny and 7th as much burn as possible to see who has the best chance of moving into the starting lineup. And Brandon could get some minutes at SG, too.
The main question at SG could be who plays in the backcourt when Berry is out. I expect Roy to try all combos, but the main one probably has Nate and 7th in there together. That presumably gives us our best ball handling combo with Berry out.
The picture is much less clear with Justin gone. Not only does Theo have to finally click on all cylinders but probably at least 2 of the freshmen and soph guards/wings have to be ready to play. But what if they aren't?
One option is to play Luke some at SF. He has shown some outside shooting chops. But is he quick enough? Another is that we have a pretty short team with a 3-guard lineup a lot of the time.
Just based on Roy's tendencies, I see almost no way Nate's not in the starting lineup. And I'm fine with that.
Some forget, at one time 7th and Bradly were 5* recruits. Bradly is tearing it up in event after event, gonna help us more than some think. Not a 2 I know but going to impress.
7th is a bit of a mystery, just how good can he shoot? Has everything else we need from a 2 and I can't wait to have a mean slasher at the 2 who LIKES playing mean D.
Theo I don't think will start from the 2. Bet we see some Berry-Britt-Theo-JJ plus a Big from time to time. I like that!
I do think if Justin leaves Theo starts at the wing and IMO BRob would be a nice back up guy to Theo but don't discount even 7th as a wing at times, going really small ball. 7th is a freakish athlete and I think he could hold his own there if needed. But I would agree BRob would most likely be the back up at the wing if JJ does leave.
When Berry sits I don't think there is a question that Nate would be his primary back up, maybe a little bit of 7th but I would assume when berry gets a rest that nate either comes in or moves over to the point.
I would be concerned if Nate is our starting 2. Nate is lacking on the defensive end and hasn't showed a consistent offensive game to make up for it. His lack of height would make it difficult for him guarding bigger 2 guards. I think Nate needs to get around 10 min a game backing up Berry and around 5-7 minutes at the 2 guard. 15-17 minutes a game is about what I see for Nate once Roy settles on a rotation.
I agree that Theo is more of a 3. But I see him as a 3/2, not a 3/4. I know that Roy has used guys his size (and smaller) at the 4 on occasion - Justin Watts, PJ and David Noel come to mind - but mainly out of desperation. I don't think he'll want to do that much the coming season unless we're up against a smaller team that's giving us a hard time. And he shouldn't need to if everybody comes along.
If Justin is playing 30+ at SF, there isn't much PT for Theo at SF.
Even if Justin comes back and it turns out that we need someone to fill in at the 4, Justin is the better option to slide there. Which would give Theo more time at the 3.
The ability of Isaiah and Kennedy to play 30 minutes without fouling or fading will be huge factors this season. Ready or not, Luke and Tony will have to play 10 or more minutes. Ideally Tony will be able to handle even more than that since Luke is a bit undersized.
Mikey, 7th is what I call a streaky shooter, maybe along the same lines as LMac (very different players just trying to relate a streaky shooter to a player was know). I do think he can steady that out as he learns and with coaching. He has been able to rely on freakish athletism in a private school league and didn't have to be the pure jump shooter. He is a kid that will work on the things he needs to work on.
What I love about the kid is he stays in attack mode on BOTH ends of the court and his up side is HUGE and everyone talked about just that until he tried to be a PG last summer and that was not a great fit for him, he handles the ball really well for a 2/3 but as a PG not what you typically want. Brain freeze but some what like (as a PG) the kid we got that wanted ot be the PG in high school but Kyri Irving came in his sr season and he had to try to learn to be a PG for the first time at UNC, same kind of thing with 7th in AAU last summer, so he dropped in the rankings and then got hurt his senior season and dropped more. before all that the kid was easy top 20 and top 10 on some lists.
We are gonna love 7th but just how he fits in for next season is a really good question, maybe deserves its own thread. He will get solid PT IMO just where is the real question.
Actually I think Nate is OK on D. He's always been good at staying in front of his man and keeping up with players who move without the ball. His problem has been more a matter of getting pushed aside because he is light, or shot over because he is short. But he seems to have gotten better at those aspects, as well, later in the season that just ended.
I like to replay various plays during a game - including to see who let the opposing player get a too-easy shot. Often when it was Nate who got beat, it turns out (when you rewind a bit more) that Nate was racing to cover someone else's man. If you watch him dog his own man, he's quite good at staying in the grill.
I am uncomfortable having a backcourt that short. But Nate will do fine in a 2-PG lineup until the other guys prove themselves. It's a good way for 7th to get some PG experience, as well - following the rule that whichever backcourt guy gets the ball is the PG for that play.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, because I see Nate's minutes about the same way as you do. But early in the season, having him start lets Roy ease the other contenders into the lineup.
yeah BUT this past season Roy did not use Theo at the 4 out of desperation, he used him because what Theo does fit the situation. When 7you have as many wings playing the 4 and stretch 4s as the game has now you can't have a meeks or Hicks trying to guard them 35ft from the basket, you need a guy with quicker feet.
Now I am not saying I want to see Theo having to consistently guard 6 '9" non-stretch 4 power forwards inside the paint. But when we play a small ball team then Theo at the 4 not only can work we have seen it work really well.
The simple truth is that unless Theo just isn't as good as we all think he is, he will be playing starter minutes next year.
The only question is whether he plays starter minutes as a starter or starter minutes as the ACC's top 6th man.
The only question is whether he plays starter minutes as a starter or starter minutes as the ACC's top 6th man.
Wouldn't it be GREAT to have JUST ONE season where NONE of our guys got thrown under the bus?
I kinda agree and I kinda agree with the guy you were replying to. Nate did improve a ton on the defensive end this past season, it was a HUGE improvement from the season before. But for much the reason you speak to, Nate isn't my preferred guy at the 2. He is really small and 2 guards are getting longer and physically stronger it seems.
As a jump shooter Nate is fine as a catch & shoot guy and at times shows us a nice little floater but how much of that was because defenses were geared to stop Marcus and how much of that can be repeated when he is a primary guy to defend like Marcus was? I actually had the same concern about Joel early on but he showed me the ability to still produce even being the primary stop assignment by the defenses. Not sure I really saw that from Nate.
I do agree, and Roy seems to as well that Nate is better at the 2 than at the point, he can fill in when Joel needs a rest and I will hold my breathe till Joel gets back in when that happens.
Where I really do like the improvement in Nate was in his chasing his man on the defensive end, he worked really hard to move his feet, did not casually go under screens as he had the season before and he didn't leave his man as often as the season before. Not to pick on the kid but before last season Nate really was a liability on the defensive end, he guarded air a lot, he was always lost on that end, last season was a really nice surprise to see Nate working hard on that end and go from liability on the defensive end to an asset. But he just ain't gonna get any bigger and not really going to get noticeable stronger and that is just going to be a problem. For example, it is just going to be hard for him to deny entry passes, it is going to be hard for him to keep a bigger & stronger guy from driving the ball.
I don't hate on Nate, I just see what I see and discuss it. For example, I do not like Nate as a ball handler on the break out, IMO he pulls the ball back out and we lose both primary and secondary breaking ops way to much. Now that is not hating on Nate IMO, that is just a thing I see him do that I do not like. If I said I do not want to see luke at the wing, is that hating on Luke or is just my opinion that luke can not guard opposing wings?
To me hating on a kid is saying something that is un-reasonable, that is not backed up by fact. Nate was not good on the defensive end his first 2 seasons with us, that is not hate, that is based on me re-watching games and isolating on Nate defending and what I watched was clear and it was not good. He VASTLY improved that last season, it was a in your face improvement that really surprised me and made me much more a fan of what he was doing.
If there is one trait I maybe respect above all others in a player is I love a player that is in attack mode for every second he is on the court and that means in attack mode on offense AND defense. When I watch Joel berry play I see a kid in attack mode no matter what end of the court he is on, I see a lot of that in Theo and think we would see that clearer if Theo shot the ball better but other wise he is always in flat out attack mode.
On a break, Joel berry the vast majority of the time is going to attack the rim, either he will finish or he will slip it to the guy that does. IN a half court set on the offensive end you do not see Joel pass the ball around the horn several times in a row, he may pass it a time or 2 but if nothing is developing he will attack with the dribble. That isn't what I saw Nate doing and no offense Nate, Joel is a lot physically stronger and ball stronger, I just don't see Nate as what I would call ball strong (strong with the ball). That is not hating on the kid, that is just my opinion based on what I see and what I prefer, others may see difference and look for different than I do.
No matter if I prefer someone else to start at the 2 or Nate start at the 2, it ain't my call it is up to Roy and *IMHO I will be SHOCKED if anyone starts the season as our starting 2 other than Nate. The question becomes can Nate hold on to that position or at least hold on to starter minutes when you have challenges from guys like Kenny, 7th, and BRob?
We saw Meeks start all season but how many of us really wanted to see Hicks start instead? As EVERYONE knows if it were up to me Joel would have started every game as a freshman, up to me it wasn't. In the same light I think Nate will start at the 2, I suspect his PT may drop as the season moves along and we very well could see either Kenny or 7th claim that starting spot by mid to late season and don't rule BRob out of that either, kid shot a crazy 3pt % this past high school season and was his teams primary shooter so that was not based on a small sample size.
I have stated several times outside of this thread that the guy I think Nate has his hands full keeping out of the starting line up, at very least keeping his PT away from is Kenny Williams. With this off season to work on his game and his body I think you guys may be shocked to see kenny play next season. I think the common discussion point we will see next season will be how in the world did Kenny not play more as a freshman.
How did I throw anyone under the bus? We have a log jam at the 2. Nate is a PG. Backing up point is natural?
I feel the same way. I just hope the injury doesn't hinder his progress too much this summer.
Not aimed at you, just in general. But Nate has played much more than backup PG too.
So Berry was the SG when he and PG Britt were on the floor together . . ? It always looked the other way around to me . .
Dave, you're starting to sound like smoothasbutter
.First scenario, IF everyone comes back and no new signees:
- I would almost be willing to bet it won't be Nate (pretty much same role next season) and won't be Robinson (not a 2, IMO) and won't be 7th (needs time to acclimate), so you can add Theo into that mix.
- In that case it comes down to Kenny Williams and Theo.
- From everything I've heard from the players plus what I've seen with my eyes, if he makes that confidence step up with his shot in games, KW will be hard to keep off the floor. On the other hand, the surgery is a set-back and will likely limit him for at least a good part of the summer (which is so vital). Thus, if JJ and the Bigs do come back Theo may be the logical choice, given his experience there early this past season.
Second scenario, if JJ leaves:
- Go ahead and slot Theo for the starting 3.
- That opens up more possible PT for Nate at the 2, but again depending on his recovery, KW is your most likely starter.
Honestly, as for the rotation, that is an open dynamic that Roy will have to suss out when he gets to start coaching them again. The freshmen wings are wildcards as to how ready they will be. They won't be as polished as the 2014 class. Summer pick-up games will be big for them. Also Roy made an interesting comment concerning Stilman during the tourney that indicates he may be in line for some meaningful minutes off the bench next season. Lotsa factors to work out in the general pecking order.
As some of us have said and others have come to realize, JB is our most vital returnee. Period. If he comes back we'll be pretty doggone good. JJ leaving (which is probably about a 50/50 or 40/60 prospect right about now) would hurt, but we could survive that, especially if we can bring back a starting frontcourt of Meeks, Hicks and Pinson. Bradley WILL be an immediate impact player (ideally off the bench) and Luke will get more and more effective. If JJ does leave let's hope Mr. Robinson has a big summer because there will be a lot more PT available.
You said Britt can't play SG and is the backup PG, so he is asking if Berry played SG when they played together?
Knowing Roy's tendencies - that job is Nate's to lose (and even if he does "lose" it in practice, it'll still be his).
I saw some good glimpses out of Nate this year, and having him get solid SG minutes wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. That said, I want to see what Kenny and 7th have to offer there. I like Pinson to get a lot of minutes, but unless things drastically change over the offseason, he's not a 2 guard. You need your SG to be able to bang open 3's consistently, which I'm not sure if he's capable of as of now. If we have Theo and JJ (if he returns) in the game together, they would most likely both be playing Forward positions and it would be a somewhat small-ball lineup with Hicks/Meeks at the Center position, and two guards.
I saw some good glimpses out of Nate this year, and having him get solid SG minutes wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. That said, I want to see what Kenny and 7th have to offer there. I like Pinson to get a lot of minutes, but unless things drastically change over the offseason, he's not a 2 guard. You need your SG to be able to bang open 3's consistently, which I'm not sure if he's capable of as of now. If we have Theo and JJ (if he returns) in the game together, they would most likely both be playing Forward positions and it would be a somewhat small-ball lineup with Hicks/Meeks at the Center position, and two guards.
Pinson if jj stays..woods if jj leaves..Nate backing at the point!!..the jury is still out on Kenny..
Dave, you're starting to sound like smoothasbutter
First scenario, IF everyone comes back and no new signees:
- I would almost be willing to bet it won't be Nate (pretty much same role next season) and won't be Robinson (not a 2, IMO) and won't be 7th (needs time to acclimate), so you can add Theo into that mix.
- In that case it comes down to Kenny Williams and Theo.
- From everything I've heard from the players plus what I've seen with my eyes, if he makes that confidence step up with his shot in games, KW will be hard to keep off the floor. On the other hand, the surgery is a set-back and will likely limit him for at least a good part of the summer (which is so vital). Thus, if JJ and the Bigs do come back Theo may be the logical choice, given his experience there early this past season.
Second scenario, if JJ leaves:
- Go ahead and slot Theo for the starting 3.
- That opens up more possible PT for Nate at the 2, but again depending on his recovery, KW is your most likely starter.
Honestly, as for the rotation, that is an open dynamic that Roy will have to suss out when he gets to start coaching them again. The freshmen wings are wildcards as to how ready they will be. They won't be as polished as the 2014 class. Summer pick-up games will be big for them. Also Roy made an interesting comment concerning Stilman during the tourney that indicates he may be in line for some meaningful minutes off the bench next season. Lotsa factors to work out in the general pecking order.
As some of us have said and others have come to realize, JB is our most vital returnee. Period. If he comes back we'll be pretty doggone good. JJ leaving (which is probably about a 50/50 or 40/60 prospect right about now) would hurt, but we could survive that, especially if we can bring back a starting frontcourt of Meeks, Hicks and Pinson. Bradley WILL be an immediate impact player (ideally off the bench) and Luke will get more and more effective. If JJ does leave let's hope Mr. Robinson has a big summer because there will be a lot more PT available.
gary, you know, I agree with you about a lot of things but this one as much as I think of ya you are IMO wrong, about Nate as our starting 2. This is Roy Williams we are talking about, he is the guy that gets to make that call and gary, that is the same guy that did not start Joel a single game as a freshman. Roy, same guy that started Meeks all season and did not start Hicks, actually started Joel James when Meeks was out. Roy will start Nate at the 2, that is just what Roy is going to do because Nate has more experience and the fact that Roy prefers Nate at the 2 because he is not as ball strong as he needs to be. Nate will be a senior and thou I do think kenny wil be the better player I doubt the margin of difference is so wide that Roy has to start Kenny. If it is anywhere close then Roy goes with the more experienced guy as a starter and equalizes things out with PT for the guy that produces more. Note, Meeks started but saw his PT reduce hard while Hicks PT increased and would have increased even more had he not had the foul issues.
I agree, IMO Kenny is the guy but Roy will not allow me to make that call. I really and I mean REALLY do not see Theo at the 2 at all next season, his time will be at the wing and at the 4 IMHO as well my preference.
One other thing I am not going to be able to buy is Stillman unless either Joel or Nate get hurt. No offense to Stillman but he just isn't a factor unless it is an emergency situation. Honestly, I think 7th would be 3rd in line for the PG role behind Joel & Nate.
Roy started Theo when Paige was out for the first 7 games. Thus, I will go with the following:
If Justin comes back:
Berry
Pinson
Jackson
Hicks
Meeks
If Justin does not comes back:
Berry
Williams
Pinson
Hicks
Meeks
Nate as the first guard off the bench.
If Justin comes back:
Berry
Pinson
Jackson
Hicks
Meeks
If Justin does not comes back:
Berry
Williams
Pinson
Hicks
Meeks
Nate as the first guard off the bench.
Right!!..that's exactly why I stated that the jury is still out on him..here's hoping that he's the second coming of another sg named Williams!!
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