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Who's On the Floor at the Same Time?

What Would Jesus Do?

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Nov 28, 2010
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I think these decisions will be very interesting this year.

We often talk about who will start or who will play the most minutes as though those guys will be on the floor at the same time. But they can't be.

For example, suppose Isaiah and Kennedy each play 25 minutes per game. If they are always on the floor together, that means we have neither of them on the floor for 15 minutes each game. Probably not a good idea. If we make sure that at least one of them is always on the floor, that means they only play together for 15 minutes per game. So all that high-low passing between Isaiah and Kennedy that some of us would like to see this year can only happen during that 15 minute stretch.

Or take Justin and Theo. We probably want to have at least one of those guys on the floor at all times. But if we do that, and they each play 30 minutes per game, that means they can only be on the floor together for 20 minutes - just half the game.

So questions arise, like

--when is it most important to have guys like these in together?
--who do you want on the floor with Theo (when Justin is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Justin (when Theo is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Isaiah (when Kennedy is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Kennedy (when Isaiah is out)

It gets more complicated when, for example, Joel needs a rest. You put in Nate. Or maybe 7th. But do you do that when Justin or Theo are also out? Or when Isaiah or Kennedy are also out?

This is one more reason why Roy pulls down the big bucks. But what sorts of combinations would you guys put on the floor if you were calling the shots?
 
Not sure how everything works out but I look forward to seeing Berry and Woods on the floor together this year. When we go small I'd love to see a lineup of Berry, Woods, Theo, JJ, and Hicks. Talk about an athletic lineup!
 
Ol' Roy has so many options at his disposal that we cannot cover them all! Plus we have no idea who has improved the most nor how good our newbies will be. Can't wait to see!
 
The scenarios that are listed all have the same first option and that is to go small. Getting Theo out of the SG position as quick as possible is key because we have potential game changers that could come in in Woods, Williams and Britt and with Theo's versatility your actually putting him at a better position until his jumper starts falling.

When Berry goes out everything could get real shaky. I almost prefer to take Theo off the court because he would have to be hitting threes and having Britt and woods or Britt and Williams could make for a okay backcourt especially with Hicks and Meeks manning the frontcourt.

I like our team we do have options because Maye and Robinson will see the court also
 
There are really too many viable combinations to list even half of them with any degree of certainty. Suffice it to say that Roy has a lot of versatile players at his disposal and we will see enough variations in our lineup that fans will be screaming about it before he eventually settles on a rotation.
 
I think these decisions will be very interesting this year.

We often talk about who will start or who will play the most minutes as though those guys will be on the floor at the same time. But they can't be.

For example, suppose Isaiah and Kennedy each play 25 minutes per game. If they are always on the floor together, that means we have neither of them on the floor for 15 minutes each game. Probably not a good idea. If we make sure that at least one of them is always on the floor, that means they only play together for 15 minutes per game. So all that high-low passing between Isaiah and Kennedy that some of us would like to see this year can only happen during that 15 minute stretch.

Or take Justin and Theo. We probably want to have at least one of those guys on the floor at all times. But if we do that, and they each play 30 minutes per game, that means they can only be on the floor together for 20 minutes - just half the game.

So questions arise, like

--when is it most important to have guys like these in together?
--who do you want on the floor with Theo (when Justin is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Justin (when Theo is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Isaiah (when Kennedy is out)
--who do you want on the floor with Kennedy (when Isaiah is out)

It gets more complicated when, for example, Joel needs a rest. You put in Nate. Or maybe 7th. But do you do that when Justin or Theo are also out? Or when Isaiah or Kennedy are also out?

This is one more reason why Roy pulls down the big bucks. But what sorts of combinations would you guys put on the floor if you were calling the shots?

--when is it most important to have guys like these in together?


--who do you want on the floor with Theo (when Justin is out)
Any combination of Hicks/Meeks/Tony when Theo is at the 3, basically I see him as a starter at the wing that may not begin the game, at least at the wing. So prefer all the other starters, maybe our best shooing 2 guard, I prefer kenny but BRob or 7th could handle this.

--who do you want on the floor with Justin (when Theo is out)
Well the starters because I see this as our best starting line up in that Justin gives us a solid trey point shooting threat.

--who do you want on the floor with Isaiah (when Kennedy is out)
Either Tony or Theo with Theo being the 4 of Tony does not come in. A lil bit of Luke maybe?

--who do you want on the floor with Kennedy (when Isaiah is out)
I think I like Hicks more in our small ball look, prefer meeks play with another big man so I would say Tony.

When Joel comes out, Nate and his experience comes in but maybe 7th and his athleticism would be a nice fit with Nate. That gives Nate the ability to learn with both Joel and Nate as the lead PGs and 7th can adapt more to a duo PG role. I like Kenny in with Joel because if kenny gets his shooting going like I expect, we will be explosive as Kenny and Joel can both nail treys as well as Justin. When that gets cranked up we can go one of those 10-15pt rolls that break games open. Then we can come back with a bit more of a defensive look with fresh leg guards in Nate/Brob/7th with Tony down low with Theo or Luke.
 
... because we have potential game changers that could come in in Woods, Williams and Britt...

I don't necessarily love Theo playing the 2 and I also really hope that we shoot it better from the outside this year. But in no way would I consider any of those 3 guys as "game changers" next year. I think Woods has the potential to be but it won't be next year. The other two are role players that can do some nice things for us. But I think to call them game changers is a reach.
 
Well for our team they could be. Theo is good at a lot of things, but his biggest flaw is shooting. When you put in Williams for example we should have a better shooter to go along side Berry. Isaih Hicks is a really good basketball player and with a little space he is almost impossible to stop one on one. JJ and Theo prolly play better together when Theo is at SG, but those two guys are versatile enough to play SF if a Woods, Williams or Britt enter the game. That is why I called those guys game changers, because it changes our style of play, and maybe better in certain situations.
 
I don't necessarily love Theo playing the 2 and I also really hope that we shoot it better from the outside this year. But in no way would I consider any of those 3 guys as "game changers" next year. I think Woods has the potential to be but it won't be next year. The other two are role players that can do some nice things for us. But I think to call them game changers is a reach.

Why not give them the chance before saying they can not be game changers next season? You give none of the 3 any possibility at all to be game changers. let's explore that just a little, if any of the 3 can shoot the ball at least as well as Marcus did last season in a slump mired season, that would be game changing, what if one of them actually shoots it better than Marcus did mired in a season long shooting slump, how can that not be game changing?

Tell ya a couple things I think are game changers but not for the better, a wing playing the 2 guard spot, the memory of JP as our 2 guard will not be soon forgotten, at least by me. A weak jump shooting 2 guard that gets the PT but becomes a guy defenses run away from and invite to take the jump shot as they double Joel or double down on our bigs, those are game changers but changers I would prefer not to see again.
 
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Tell ya a couple things I think are game changers but not for the better, a wing playing the 2 guard spot, the memory of JP as our 2 guard will not be soon forgotten, at least by me. A weak jump shooting 2 guard that gets the PT but becomes a guy defenses run away from and invite to take the jump shot as they double Joel or double down on our bigs, those are game changers but changers I would prefer not to see again.
I won't soon forget JP at the two. There's a reason it called the "shooting guard" spot. Unless Joel and JJ are shooting lights out from 3-pt range, we need someone at SG who can at least shoot the trey well enough to keep defenses honest.

I would be content with Theo getting 10 minutes backing up JJ at SF and another 8-10 at PF when we go small. If he proves that he deserves more PT than that, then we'll see. I think he's perfectly suited to being an energy guy off the bench. Now if nobody among the group of Kenny/7th/Brandon proves capable of consistently making treys, then by all means give Theo more time at the two. Note that I didn't include Nate because I believe he is best suited as a backup at PG.

We're going to be discussing this ad nauseum this year, I'm sure.
 
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Why not give them the chance before saying they can not be game changers next season? You give none of the 3 any possibility at all to be game changers. let's explore that just a little, if any of the 3 can shoot the ball at least as well as Marcus did last season in a slump mired season, that would be game changing, what if one of them actually shoots it better than Marcus did mired in a season long shooting slump, how can that not be game changing?
.

Yes, what you suggest could happen. But based on what we've seen in the past, there is no evidence that would make me believe it will occur. If it does, then I'd be thrilled to have underestimated them.
 
Well for our team they could be. Theo is good at a lot of things, but his biggest flaw is shooting. When you put in Williams for example we should have a better shooter to go along side Berry. Isaih Hicks is a really good basketball player and with a little space he is almost impossible to stop one on one. JJ and Theo prolly play better together when Theo is at SG, but those two guys are versatile enough to play SF if a Woods, Williams or Britt enter the game. That is why I called those guys game changers, because it changes our style of play, and maybe better in certain situations.

Good explanation. I understand.
 
Yes, what you suggest could happen. But based on what we've seen in the past, there is no evidence that would make me believe it will occur. If it does, then I'd be thrilled to have underestimated them.

slinger, what evidence of the past are we talking about? We have not seen 7th or BRob play a single NCAA game so far so there is ZERO available evidence. We saw kenny play for what, a minute a game last season, I do not consider that a reasonable sample size to frame that opinion that he can not play?

But you want to talk about what we have seen, we have seen Theo shoot jump shots haven't we, we have seen a wing play the 2 guard position as well have we not, his name was Tokoto and it was not that long ago.

Now I ask you, what is more likely, Theo all the sudden becomes a solid jump shooter OR 3 guys on our roster that came to UNC touted to be excellent jump shooters out to the trey arch being able to replace the shooting from Marcus that was in a season long shooting slump last season?
 
slinger, what evidence of the past are we talking about? We have not seen 7th or BRob play a single NCAA game so far so there is ZERO available evidence. We saw kenny play for what, a minute a game last season, I do not consider that a reasonable sample size to frame that opinion that he can not play?

Kenny was in enough to go 1-13 from deep last season with some of those shots not drawing iron.

But you want to talk about what we have seen, we have seen Theo shoot jump shots haven't we, we have seen a wing play the 2 guard position as well have we not, his name was Tokoto and it was not that long ago.

I'm not arguing that Theo is a good shooter or even a better shooter than the guys we're debating. However, Pinson brings exponentially more to the table outside of shooting than does Williams, Britt or Woods at this stage. So while I'm not looking to Theo for shooting, I support him getting more minutes based on the other skills he has.

Now I ask you, what is more likely, Theo all the sudden becomes a solid jump shooter OR 3 guys on our roster that came to UNC touted to be excellent jump shooters out to the trey arch being able to replace the shooting from Marcus that was in a season long shooting slump last season?

Woods and Britt were not touted as great shooters in high school. Williams was, but again, he struggled mightily last year (albeit in limited time). Maybe more minutes gets Williams on track. I hope so. You asked what is more likely to happen?...Theo becoming a great shooter or one of the other guys becoming a great shooter? IMO, neither is likely. I also find it highly unlikely that any of those 3 guys become "game changers". I'm not saying they won't offer something. And some of what they offer could be 3 point shooting. I'm not arguing that. I was simply discounting the liklihood of them becoming "game changers". That's all.
 
If Woods shows off a portion of the athleticism and explosion he can be a game changer. If Williams knocks down 2 threes he is a game changer. If Britt moves Berry over to SG then he changes the game. I believe Theo is our best person to start because of experience and should be a better defender and if JJ is hitting it works out well becauee Theo can rebound, but any 3 or 4 guys could come in and change the game because now we have the possibility of scoring from outside.
 
If Woods shows off a portion of the athleticism and explosion he can be a game changer. If Williams knocks down 2 threes he is a game changer. If Britt moves Berry over to SG then he changes the game. I believe Theo is our best person to start because of experience and should be a better defender and if JJ is hitting it works out well becauee Theo can rebound, but any 3 or 4 guys could come in and change the game because now we have the possibility of scoring from outside.

I guess the confusion is simply that you (and Dave) apparently have a different definition of what a "game changer" is. I guess in the most basic definition, you would be correct. Britt coming in and moving Berry to the two does indeed change the game - but IMO, not for the better. Whereas when I think of "game changing" players, the connotation is that of improved game changing.

I don't see Williams knocking down two threes a game as game changing. I see it as "that's what he is supposed to do and what he was brought here to do". If he's not knocking down shots, what else is he offering? I'm not trying to dog the kid, but he stood around like a statue last year. Sure, a lot of development typically happens between 1st and 2nd year. So I'm hopeful. But again, that's blind faith because there's nothing to point to that would make me believe it's likely.

As far as Seventh, I agree that his athleticism is game changing. But as I stated, I don't think it will be this year. He will need some time to get up to the speed of the college game and his size - which wasn't that big of a deal in high school - puts him behind the 8-ball.
 
I feel you, but if we had a true SG better than Pinson then they would be a starter. Best case scenerio is for Williams, Britt or Woods to prove they can handle starting at SG and then Pinson backs up two future NBA players in Hicks and Jackson, but as of now Theo's versatility and signs of good defense are best for the team. Theo on the floor puts pressure on JJ to hit 3s which I know he can do at times.
 
I guess the confusion is simply that you (and Dave) apparently have a different definition of what a "game changer" is. I guess in the most basic definition, you would be correct. Britt coming in and moving Berry to the two does indeed change the game - but IMO, not for the better. Whereas when I think of "game changing" players, the connotation is that of improved game changing.

I have never said I prefer Nate to start, what I have said is I expect him to start, he is a senior as well as former starter. Think I have said it enough that it cannot be confused, I prefer a shooting guard that shoots the ball well. This is not a Jackie Manual situation because we do not have a Sean May, Marvin Williams, Jawad, or Rashad that can allow for scoring to not have to come from the 2 guard spot.

I don't see Williams knocking down two threes a game as game changing. I see it as "that's what he is supposed to do and what he was brought here to do". If he's not knocking down shots, what else is he offering? I'm not trying to dog the kid, but he stood around like a statue last year. Sure, a lot of development typically happens between 1st and 2nd year. So I'm hopeful. But again, that's blind faith because there's nothing to point to that would make me believe it's likely.

If you think that ALL kenny brings to the table is as a shooter, and no the 1 for 13 does not reflect his ability to shoot, you are off. Kenny is a solid defender, works hard on the defensive end, has learned the concepts, gave Marcus fits in practice last season. He is a decent ball handler, he has a full year under his belt learning from Marcus, working with Marcus to learn what it takes to play at this level.

I have no idea where the "he stood around like a statue" stuff comes from, it is very different than the comments about his defensive play in the rare times he was able to get in to the game.

You don't see kenny hitting treys as game changing? Look, unless you figure Joel is going to score 40 a game, where do you expect the scoring to come from? It is ABSOLUTELY VITAL THIS UNC TEAM SHOOT WELL FROM THE OUT SIDE. Joel will do well as a shooter but he needs his back court mate to take the pressure off of him, yes, that is game changing.

Tell ya what is as well game changing, have a poor shooting 2 guard that clangs shots as the other team rebounds and gets out on breaks.

Seems like folks that feel the need to discount Kenny all want to point to his going 1-13 last season. I guess Roy does not know what he is talking about when he shares how well Kenny shot in practice last season? I guess PJ Harrison was a poor shooter because he could toss the ball in the ocean standing on a pier as a freshman. All I am saying right now is what everyone else will be saying around January, not my first rodeo with stuff like this.


As far as Seventh, I agree that his athleticism is game changing. But as I stated, I don't think it will be this year. He will need some time to get up to the speed of the college game and his size - which wasn't that big of a deal in high school - puts him behind the 8-ball.

6'1" & 185 as a freshman is not behind the 8 ball , did ya happen to catch marcus or Nate's height & weight as a freshmen? 7th will have his moments this season, don't know how early or often but he will get PT and will find 4-6 pts a game.
 
I feel you, but if we had a true SG better than Pinson then they would be a starter. Best case scenerio is for Williams, Britt or Woods to prove they can handle starting at SG and then Pinson backs up two future NBA players in Hicks and Jackson, but as of now Theo's versatility and signs of good defense are best for the team. Theo on the floor puts pressure on JJ to hit 3s which I know he can do at times.

EXACTLY !
 
There has been zero production from BRob, Seventh or Kenny to suggest they start over Theo. Kenny was 1-13 from three. Not exactly lighting it up huh? BRob and Seventh haven't even played a game yet. Seventh is not known for his outside shot and should be compared to Dexter Strickland at this point. Nate is incredibly inconsistent and lacks size/athleticism. Folks, mark it down right now. Theo starts at SG and rightfully so! Let's revisit this thread in November.
 
There has been zero production from BRob, Seventh or Kenny to suggest they start over Theo. Kenny was 1-13 from three. Not exactly lighting it up huh? BRob and Seventh haven't even played a game yet. Seventh is not known for his outside shot and should be compared to Dexter Strickland at this point. Nate is incredibly inconsistent and lacks size/athleticism. Folks, mark it down right now. Theo starts at SG and rightfully so! Let's revisit this thread in November.

Lets revisit this in jan when we have seen some things play out.

Now comparing 7th to Dexter, I can buy as far as the fact that Dex did not play the point prior to coming to us, so as a PG I can agree to an extent. Dexter was athletic but not nearly to the extent that 7th is. Now it is legit to say IMO, that 7th would be considered a streaky jump shooter but you have to understand the reason for that. The league 7th played in was a private school league, he could get away with exploiting his athletism and didn't need to work on his jump shooting. His team relied on him, to score and he found it easier to drive and finish. But in situations where he shot more jumpers he would warm in to the game and start hitting them solidly. At UNC he will focus more on his shooting because you can't get away with nothing but athleticism. His jump shooting is IMO more minor tweeks, getting consistent with his release point and elevation. 7th can shoot well beyond the 3pt arch, Dexter never could.

The 1-13 from Kenny last season is a deceptive number, I could pull out a string of 13 trey attempts for Marcus and Justin last season and it would not be much better, both slumped as shooters last season at times. I look at the kids form when he shoots and it is really good, I know a shooter coming in cold off the bench it is hard for him to automatically be in his shooting groove and that is double hard for a kid that gets rare minutes. I know what Roy felt about the kid in practice last season and when Roy says a kid hits everything in practice he ain't blowing smoke. He said that about Marcus early in his freshman season when Marcus could not hit anything and many were questioning why Roy was starting him over PJ. It took Marcus a lot more than 13 shots to get his game going as a freshman, shouldn't kenny get that same benefit of the doubt?
 
Dead+horse.GIF


And the season hasn't even started...
 
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Dead+horse.GIF


And the season hasn't even started...

That is what we do in the off season arch, we take a topic and beat it to death and yet the entertainment value is in watching how the tone changes as the games begin to be played. I especially enjoy getting on the minority view point and arguing my case and watching how it plays out when the games begin.

But yeah, that is what we do in the off season, we make ole timey baseballs...Then we sit back and watch the stitches unravel. LOL
 
Well, I'll tell you Dave. I'm with you on where we think Theo can be most effective. And barring drastic improvement in his perimeter shooting, I think it's as a backup to JJ and at PF in our small lineup. I happen to think our small lineup was one of our most effective lineups at the end of the year, perhaps our most effective. And anticipating foul/stamina/health issues with Isaiah and Kennedy again this year, I think we'll see quite a bit of small ball.
 
Well, I'll tell you Dave. I'm with you on where we think Theo can be most effective. And barring drastic improvement in his perimeter shooting, I think it's as a backup to JJ and at PF in our small lineup. I happen to think our small lineup was one of our most effective lineups at the end of the year, perhaps our most effective. And anticipating foul/stamina/health issues with Isaiah and Kennedy again this year, I think we'll see quite a bit of small ball.

Arch, I would be willing to bet anyone (and I don't bet) that there would not be anyone in the entire Tar Heel Nation any happier than either you or I would be to see Theo come in to this season shooting the ball like Wayne Ellington. I can't even express how happy I would be to be wrong about that and I seriously doubt you would be any different.

But, I and I believe you, we are just saying what we think will happen, not what we wish would. Theo will no doubt get a shot at the 2 early season when Roy tinkers with his line up, when he is testing out different combinations to see what works and what don't. But when the dust settles I do not see Theo at the 2, I think Nate will get the starts for a while and I strongly believe one of our true 2 guards take over the position, I think it will be Kenny, if these yes ain't 100% they ain't wrong much! LOL.
 
Arch, I would be willing to bet anyone (and I don't bet) that there would not be anyone in the entire Tar Heel Nation any happier than either you or I would be to see Theo come in to this season shooting the ball like Wayne Ellington. I can't even express how happy I would be to be wrong about that and I seriously doubt you would be any different.

But, I and I believe you, we are just saying what we think will happen, not what we wish would. Theo will no doubt get a shot at the 2 early season when Roy tinkers with his line up, when he is testing out different combinations to see what works and what don't. But when the dust settles I do not see Theo at the 2, I think Nate will get the starts for a while and I strongly believe one of our true 2 guards take over the position, I think it will be Kenny, if these yes ain't 100% they ain't wrong much! LOL.
The problem I have with the way you and Archer are looking at this is that Theo is just too good to be merely a backup for JJ and an occasional 4 in a small ball configuration.

That could mean under 15 minutes a game.

Obviously the best place to play Theo is at SF for 25-30 minutes. But it's hard to figure out a lineup where that happens. So, if you agree with me that our best team is one where Theo plays starter minutes, not backup minutes, then where do you put him?

Also obvious is if he comes in shooting poorly then he takes himself out of contention for a starting position.

To me these are the best options for Theo and for the team:

1. His shooting improves enough that he starts at SG.

2. HIs shooting is OK but not good enough to start at SG. Instead he backs up 10 at SF and 15 at SG, with occasional small ball appearances at PF.

3. He hasn't improved that much and mainly backs up JJ while being inserted for spot duty wherever needed. Still a spark off the bench or a defensive stopper, but other guys pass him by for the starting roles and even for backup minutes when we need outside scoring. Pretty much the same role and minutes as last year as someone else takes over Marcus's spot.
 
Do y'all remember Jackie Manual? How about Dexter Strickland? Point is, knocking down outside shots is not a requirement to start at SG for Roy Williams. Theo will start at SG and get around 15-18 mpg at the position and he will get another 8-12 mpg between the SF and PF spot.
 
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  • Theo starts at #2 and his shooting is dramatically improved. He spends some time up front in small ball situations and spells Justin too, logging 25+ min.
  • JJ and Joel B continue their great play from the end of last year and have potential AA seasons.
  • Isaiah and Kennedy have monster seasons, with Tony soaking up experience from both.
  • 7th, Kwill and BRob get valuable PT off the bench, providing offensive and defensive spark for the Junior/Senior led team.
  • Heels win it all, all three Juniors declare for the draft, Knox signs on for '17 and walks into a vacant wing forward position with JJ and Theo gone.


Am I hoping for too much?
 
Do y'all remember Jackie Manual? How about Dexter Strickland? Point is, knocking down outside shots is not a requirement to start at SG for Roy Williams. Theo will start at SG and get around 15-18 mpg at the position and he will get another 8-12 mpg between the SF and PF spot.

Jackie is a good argument but the difference is we had Sean May who was unstoppable inside the paint, we had jawad a stretch 4 that was able to pull big men outside, we had marvin who was a inside/outside solid threat, and of course we had the guy that was our head case but one whale of a scorer in McCants to go along with Ray. Now when you have scorers like that across the board and especially the big men that you can dump it in to for easy scoring then you can get away with have a poor shooter at the 2. But we don;t have that for this team today so we have to get strong scoring from our back court, ALL 3 back court positions. Dexter had Zeller and Henson, we have Hicks and Meeks, way different in terms of inside production to reduce the need for it coming from out side.
 
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