Would you rank Berry in your top 5 all time Carolina Point guards
- Thread starter smooth as butter
- Start date
Never saw Ford but assuming he's top 5 from what I've heard.
That said, I have Berry currently 7th and I'm sure he'll move up to top 5 by the end of this season.
1. Lawson
2. Ford
3. Kenny Smith
4. Felton
5. Cota
6. Paige
7. Berry
8. Butter
That said, I have Berry currently 7th and I'm sure he'll move up to top 5 by the end of this season.
1. Lawson
2. Ford
3. Kenny Smith
4. Felton
5. Cota
6. Paige
7. Berry
8. Butter
He's on the cusp. I think this year will decide it.
I didn't see Cota and back, so just off the ones I've seen play I'd go:
1. Lawson
2. Felton
3. Berry
4a Paige
4b Marshall
Paige and Marshall are tough to split because they were opposites in their strengths - Paige was very much a scoring point guard, whereas Butter could run the offense better and is probably the best passer of the bunch - but wasn't a scoring threat.
The other 3 were/are better blends of both skills. The way Ty could go coast to coast in the blink of an eye and finish at the rim with the best of them was amazing to watch.
1. Lawson
2. Felton
3. Berry
4a Paige
4b Marshall
Paige and Marshall are tough to split because they were opposites in their strengths - Paige was very much a scoring point guard, whereas Butter could run the offense better and is probably the best passer of the bunch - but wasn't a scoring threat.
The other 3 were/are better blends of both skills. The way Ty could go coast to coast in the blink of an eye and finish at the rim with the best of them was amazing to watch.
Back to back natty games as our starting PG, yeah, I have him right there, with Ray & Ty. I have Phil on top and the Jet second and then the trio of Ray, Joel, & Ty in no particular order, with Cota not far behind. For me guys like Steve Hale and George Karl don't get thought of enough, they were awesome in their day. I absolutely don't give enough respect to guys I didn't see like Larry Miller or Charlie Scott.
Code:
Player Pts Ast Rbs FG% 3p% FT% POY NC
Ford 18.6 6.1 2.1 527 --- 808 1 0
Smith 12.9 6.0 2.2 512 408 823 0 0
Lawson 13.1 5.8 2.9 568 403 780 0 1
Cota 9.1 7.5 3.7 480 372 734 0 0
Felton 12.5 6.9 4.1 423 375 731 0 1
Phelps 7.3 4.8 3.3 448 322 718 0 1
Berry 11.1 3.1 2.6 433 380 806 0 1
McGinnis 11.3 4.4 2.8 459 397 719 0 0
Paige 13.1 4.3 2.8 407 375 844 0 0
Marshall 7.2 8.0 2.3 446 366 693 0 0
Karl 13.8 4.2 3.0 512 --- 780 0 0These are career numbers.
Last edited:
Thanks for reminding me of Karl. I tacked him on to my list.
Eddie Fogler wasn't bad, either. Ditto for King Rice and Jimmy Black (the other championship PG).
And thank you for reminding me of Phelps, don't know how I could have not included him!
Lawson was downright unstoppable during 2008-09.
Never have I seen someone get up the court with the ball quicker than Ty that season. Add in 53/48/80 and he was just silly.
Never have I seen someone get up the court with the ball quicker than Ty that season. Add in 53/48/80 and he was just silly.
If he makes another final four this year then yes. Three out of four years as the starting PG would make it really hard to keep him off my top 5 list, but would be hard to crack my top 5 "favorite" UNC PGs. Similar to a Hans in that he has to be considered one of the all time greats, but personally I have tons of other guys I prefer over him, but his credentials as far as stats make it almost impossible to keep him off of a educated conversation.
1) Ford
2) K Smith
3) Cota
4) Lawson
5) Felton
6) Black
7) Marshall
These are my top seven PG's. I may be incline to put Phelps and McGinnis in front of Berry. My definition of a PG is one that facilitates, get players the ball where they can be effective with the ability to score. I think Pinson is more of a facilitator than Berry. Berry is an outstanding athlete that can flat out score. He get his jersey in the rafters because of ONE game. That one did netted us a Ship, but we all watched the same tourney we all know who was the real MOP, but that's a topic for another time. How can he be a top 5 when he's barely dropping 3 dimes a game? To be fair, his legacy is still being written. Let's have this discussion at the end of his senior year.....
2) K Smith
3) Cota
4) Lawson
5) Felton
6) Black
7) Marshall
These are my top seven PG's. I may be incline to put Phelps and McGinnis in front of Berry. My definition of a PG is one that facilitates, get players the ball where they can be effective with the ability to score. I think Pinson is more of a facilitator than Berry. Berry is an outstanding athlete that can flat out score. He get his jersey in the rafters because of ONE game. That one did netted us a Ship, but we all watched the same tourney we all know who was the real MOP, but that's a topic for another time. How can he be a top 5 when he's barely dropping 3 dimes a game? To be fair, his legacy is still being written. Let's have this discussion at the end of his senior year.....
He's in the top 5 for me landing somewhere around 4 or 5 with a chance to move up with another final 4 run.
It's not fantasy basketball. A great PG in UNC's sytems have always been guys that lead and elevate their teams by doing whatever they have to do to make the team better. If you asked last years team including JJ I promise you they will tell you that Joel was the rock , the glue to keep things going steady. Stats matter but results matter more. If you put a Jeff McGinnis over Berry you are just flat out wrong in your assessments of UNC PG's. Talent maybe but full package of what a PG needs to be.... No! Hell Derrick Phelps never averaged double digits PPG in any season stat geek. Terrible post , I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul!
"top 5 all time Carolina Point guards" to me would have to include athletic ability, leadership, learned skills, natural PG instinct, attitude, accomplishments, and a few other unmeasurable traits. I've never seen a better fit than Phil Ford. Ty Lawson was 1a but he had Hansbrough, Green, Ellington etc. Berry just willed us to a championship while playing on 2 bad ankles with a team full of good players but no great ones. IMO, to play 1 game for the championship, I'm picking Ty, Raymond, or Joel. Those three were team players, ran the system to perfection, could score if needed, played in your face defense, and had enough fight in them to refuse to lose.
Get ck to me after the upcoming season. If Joel leads us back to the FF, especially in consideration of our very green front line, I would have to say yes. I have a special place in my heart for UNC PG's and he's certainly one of my personal top five favorites.
Yea he is at least top 5 at this point. And like you said depending on how the season goes he could be up there at the top.
To me, it's not his physical skills, which are considerable, but his competitive fire and leadership qualities which elevate him into such exalted company in the pantheon of UNC point guards.
I think JB is #1--rip me all you want, but switch out Ty with Berry in 09 I'm not sure whe lose a game with those alpha dogs !! Haha ! Woooo! Heels ! I do say Joel for college is #1-- he'll erase doubts this year if healthy !
As I've said before it's hard to go wrong with a favorite at good ol' PGU. That being said some of the responses ITT speak volumes as to the perspective(s) some use to evaluate, for better or worse. As for lists, I don't GAS whether you saw him or not, Phil is the GOAT. From there it's a matter of picking 2, 3, 4, et al.
Lawson was the best Ive seen. Kendall I think may have been a better "pure PG than Berry". Ford, cota, smith, those guys speak for themselves. Throw Felton in there for good measure, thats a tough list to crack the top 5 on. Id put JB 6th or 7th probably. Some of the guys we are comparing him to also played against in some cases much tougher competition than Berry has to. I wouldnt trade him for any other PG in america at the present, though.
Is Berry a top 5 UNC point guard? Of course he is.
He belongs in the top 5 based on the success of our team under his guidance and his accolades during the tournament. Can't think of 5 point guards we have had that have led us to this kind of success and won various MVP's and all tourney teams doing it.
He belongs in the top 5 based on the success of our team under his guidance and his accolades during the tournament. Can't think of 5 point guards we have had that have led us to this kind of success and won various MVP's and all tourney teams doing it.
I don't think you can rate any point guard higher than him who hasn't led us to a national title or been a national player of the year. Ed cota for example and in a big Ed fan. I also loved Kendall Marshall but Joel Berry is a different animal.
1. Ford
2. Lawson
3. Felton
4. Berry
5. Smith
Next 5 includes names like Phelps, Paige, Cota, etc.
1. Ford
2. Lawson
3. Felton
4. Berry
5. Smith
Next 5 includes names like Phelps, Paige, Cota, etc.
Now that is a very astute top-5, with the caveat that 2-thru-5 could be rearranged in any order and be quite legit.
Frankly, I'm simultaneously bemused and incredulous that any current Heel fan would not have JB in their top-5.
Does Berry have what it takes to have a Frank Mason kind of year?
I wouldn't expect it but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
IIRC, they were performing very similarly at mid season. After which Mason got a little better and Joel faded for a bit before closing well. Eliminate that fade, and Joel might not get POY, but he should be 1st or 2nd team AA.
It would be easier with Tony back. Having to relearn and retrain virtually the entire front line won't make Joel's job easier. Even Luke will be playing a much different role. OTOH, maybe we will luck out and 1 or 2 of those new guys will turn out to be great targets and finishers.
Joel has a dangerous runner. Which makes me think he could be more effective at driving and dishing than we have seen. Maybe our new front line - whoever that happens to be - will be better targets for dishing after driving. One of those things we'll find out, I guess.
I wouldn't expect it but I wouldn't rule it out, either.
IIRC, they were performing very similarly at mid season. After which Mason got a little better and Joel faded for a bit before closing well. Eliminate that fade, and Joel might not get POY, but he should be 1st or 2nd team AA.
It would be easier with Tony back. Having to relearn and retrain virtually the entire front line won't make Joel's job easier. Even Luke will be playing a much different role. OTOH, maybe we will luck out and 1 or 2 of those new guys will turn out to be great targets and finishers.
Joel has a dangerous runner. Which makes me think he could be more effective at driving and dishing than we have seen. Maybe our new front line - whoever that happens to be - will be better targets for dishing after driving. One of those things we'll find out, I guess.
Good post, Mary7777 . . and welcome to the board.
Ford, Lawson, Smith, Cota & Felton are my top 5 in no particular order . .
I could see Mr. Berry being included in that group with a very productive senior year. Should he lead us to another FF or that coveted Title game, he may very well be my all time #2 behind Phil. His success the past 2 seasons has already been noted . .
Black?
You don't even hear his name mentioned in the top ten but he was there cutting down the nets. He wasn't flashy but he didn't make mistakes and he got the ball the the guys who could score. Seems like a forgotte point guard but we wouldn't have won it all that year without him.
You don't even hear his name mentioned in the top ten but he was there cutting down the nets. He wasn't flashy but he didn't make mistakes and he got the ball the the guys who could score. Seems like a forgotte point guard but we wouldn't have won it all that year without him.
He absolutely could. Frank had to shoulder a lot of scoring because KU was uncharacteristically weak up front. See where this is going?...
Jimmy had limited gifts compared to some others but he was among the top floor generals to play here and that counts for a lot.
Jimmy is prob 10 for me. Great facilitator but not at the level of those in the top 5 and not sure he was as good of a facilitator as Cota or Marshall.
I saw him (Ford) and you're right Gary he has to be #1. Only a freak accident kept us from winning it all that year. Hell his final game in Carmichale-against Dook and Gene Banks-he put the team on his shoulders and wouldn't allow us to lose. I think he scored 34 that day-we didn't sit down the whole game except at half time. Best game I ever saw in person.
Phil was a once-in-a-lifetime PG and was on his way to being an NBA legend before alcohol derailed his career so tragically early.
In the middle of his first NBA season (in which he would be named Rookie of the Year) a magazine did an article on him where they asked several NBA GMs and coaches and there was already a consensus forming around the league that he was not only the best rookie, he was the already the best PG in the NBA. Yeah, wow.
One last anecdote: I was at Dean's coaching clinic when one of the coaches asked him who was the best player who ever played for him. A lot of us started laughing when Dean grinned because we didn't think he'd answer. But... he did. Coach Smith said, "Well, Michael was the most gifted (wonder where Roy gets that term?
), but Phil Ford was the best I ever had."That pretty much sez it all....
Last edited:
